Protocols | Golden Skate

Protocols

GoldMedalist

Match Penalty
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
http://www.isufs.org/results/gpusa07/

One of Takahashi's footwork sequences in the SP got a Level 1. WTF? At least they gave him deservedly high GOE (even though footwork sequences that aren't level 4 get those GOE values cut in half :ohwell: ).

They seriously need to change the rules about someone (accidentally) doing an extra combination or jump. It's pretty annoying to see something get credited as 0 points because of a technicality. Andrei Lutai's entire 3Lutz/3Toe combination was worth nothing because he accidentally did 3 Triple Toeloops (as a result of turning the planned Quad Toe into a Triple). That's absolutely ridiculous. Why not just downgrade the 3T into a double?
 
I agree, and I would go even farther. All of this is killing the sport.

In the ladies' LP Kimmie won the contest by 1.34 points. Miki’s downgrade on the triple Lutz cost her 4.1 base points. So if the tech caller had given Miki the benefit of the doubt, which certainly could have happened as likely as not, she would have won.

Except that Kimmie lost 2.7 points when her 3T was downgraded. So this puts Kimmie – nope, Miki still wins by 0.06 points.

Except that the tech caller took a big whopping 14.21 points off Caroline’s score for underrotations. A little different viewing angle and Caroline wins with a score of 167.56 to Ando’s 165.99 and Meissner’s 165.93.

No wonder we see skaters in the kiss and cry with blank looks on their faces, even after their scores have come up, waiting for someone to tell them whether they won or lost.

Very likely all these deductions were warranted under the rules. Still, it is death to a specator sport when the audience can’t tell who won or why, and especially if they see someone clearly outskate someone else but not win because of a maze of unintelligible regulations apparently interpreted by officials’ whims.
 
I agree, and I would go even farther. All of this is killing the sport.

.

As an avid fan, I'm already starting to lose interest after this evening. I don't think I'll spend much time on Skate Canada. I mean I was shocked by many many results of all disciplines.

I guess I won't pay much attention to who wins and who loses anymore, just pick up the performances I enjoy the most...
 
I'm so confused and behind with the CoP rules - BUT i don't have this sense that the wrong people were on the podium, i'm not even convinced the winners shouldn't have won under any system...so, how should the results have differed for those that seem so troubled? i'm truly curious.
 
But Math.. I think the point is that allowing skaters to get away with cheated jumps is unfair to skaters who fully rotate their jumps. Why should someone get credit for a triple, if they didn't do a triple?

It's not fair to skaters who have precise technique/and fully rotate their jumps to have underrotated jumps not be punished.

What needs to happen is they just need to explain it to the audience before and afterwards. And honestly, I think part of the problem with Caroline was the commentators did too much gushing, and didn't mention the bad technique whatsover... And well remember how Dick gravitated to the bad technique immediately when he saw her...

The problem is partly the commentators, I think most of the audience would understand that they don't know the technicalities. And most people would say that no they don't want someone with cheated jumps beating someone with clean jumps.
 
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But Math.. I think the point is that allowing skaters to get away with cheated jumps is unfair to skaters who fully rotate their jumps. Why should someone get credit for a triple, if they didn't do a triple?

It's not fair to skaters who have precise technique/and fully rotate their jumps to have underrotated jumps not be punished.

What needs to happen is they just need to explain it to the audience before and afterwards. And honestly, I think part of the problem with Caroline was the commentators did too much gushing, and didn't mention the bad technique whatsover... And well remember how Dick gravitated to the bad technique immediately when he saw her...

The problem is partly the commentators, I think most of the audience would understand that they don't know the technicalities. And most people would say that no they don't want someone with cheated jumps beating someone with clean jumps.

:clap::clap:
 
But Math.. I think the point is that allowing skaters to get away with cheated jumps is unfair to skaters who fully rotate their jumps. Why should someone get credit for a triple, if they didn't do a triple?...
I wsih I had some answers. But I only have more and more questions. In my humble opinion, the figure skating establishment needs to take a harder look at what it is they are trying to accomplish.

Why put on skating contests in the first place? If the answer is, to find out who is the best at skating and give that person a medal, that's cool, but why bother to put it on TV? Why try to recruit sponsors, why advertise to attract an audience, why negotiate with communications networks for air time, why sell tickets?

Recreational skating, yes. Local club events, great. But these elite shows are supposed to be a form of entertainment. Check out the thread, "Was the arena really that empty?" And the responses, "Yes, it was."

All rules are fair if they apply to all contestants equally. Every year Major League Baseball sits down with the television people and the Umpires' Association and tweaks the rules. Shall we call a wider or a narrower strike zone this year? Shall we use a livelier or a deader ball? These decissions are made onthe basis of, "What do the fans want to see? More home runs? Great pitching duels?"

My fear is that the ISU judging system will become so wonderful, so astonishing and subtle, so rich in arcane detail, that Mr. Cinquanta will be able to applaud himself to his heart's content in an otherwise empty rink.
 
And if we're confused, and we're the die hards, imagine the harm this is doing for those once in awhile viewers. I've had people ask me the last two years to explain the new system to them and I can't.

I still say there was nothing wrong w/the 6.0. It was the corrupt idiots using it that was the problem. They had a golden chance w/SLC to sweep things clean, but instead, they've created what will be the death knell to this sport.
 
But Math.. I think the point is that allowing skaters to get away with cheated jumps is unfair to skaters who fully rotate their jumps. Why should someone get credit for a triple, if they didn't do a triple?

I have no problem with punishing cheated jumps, I do think that currently COP is punishing them too much. Automatic -3 GOE (with no downgrading) for underrotation sounds about right to me.
 
And if we're confused, and we're the die hards, imagine the harm this is doing for those once in awhile viewers. I've had people ask me the last two years to explain the new system to them and I can't.

Gymnastics is the only other sport I follow on a regular basis, and last month's Worlds was the first gymnastics competition I watched since they replaced the old "perfect 10" system with their new judging system.

I don't follow gymnastics as closely as skating, and I didn't think the NBC or CBC commentators did a very good job at all at explaining their new scoring system to those of us who haven't watched a competition since the 2004 Olympics. I kept asking, "What the &$%# is this?" every time the gymnasts received their marks...and every time gymnasts or coaches tried to appeal their marks to the judges.

So as a "once in a while" gymnastics fan, I can definitely relate to "once in a while" skating fans who react the same way after seeing COP scores...and even I'm just starting to understand the little details of how the skating COP works.

The old perfect 10 and 6.0 systems were definitely not perfect, but they were definitely easier for most fans to figure out. And that's my main complaint about the new scoring system in both sports.

I still say there was nothing wrong w/the 6.0. It was the corrupt idiots using it that was the problem. They had a golden chance w/SLC to sweep things clean, but instead, they've created what will be the death knell to this sport.

The judging system had to be changed somehow after SLC, and there are a lot of things I actually like about COP, especially the fact it forces skaters to work harder on their non-jump elements and the fact it's much easier for skaters to climb back up and win if they're not Top 3 after the SP. And I actually like the fact cheated/underrotated jumps are downgraded if it motivates skaters to work on the proper technique, although I agree they don't need to be downgraded as harshly as they were in this competition.

And while I may not fully understand how the judges arrived at the final results, I've agreed with what those final results were, for the most part. I certainly couldn't say the same under 6.0.

But I wonder if there's any way the old 6.0 system could have been tweaked to incorporate those things and clean up the judging...and I'm not talking about that horrible "interim" system used at 2003 and 2004 Worlds, either.

I just posted this in another thread, but I notice a lot of the Asian/Japanese networks not only display the total scores when skaters receive their marks, they also give a breakdown on the side of the screen explaining how many points were given for jumps, how many were given for spins and other elements, etc.

I thought this was a really good idea and I don't understand why the North American networks haven't picked it up. It certainly helped me understand COP better than any of the commentators have managed so far. And I'm willing to bet the average Japanese fan probably understands COP much better than the average North American fan right now because of it.

If 6.0 had to be replaced with a new scoring system, I wish they had chosen something more similar to the system used in diving and freestyle skiing. There seem to be a lot of similarities between those systems and the skating COP, but the main difference is those systems are a lot easier to follow for those of us who only watch those sports every four years during the Olympics.

You don't need to be a diving expert to figure out why divers lose points when they miss their dives or why Diver A scored more points than Diver B, but unfortunately, that's not the case with skating or gymnastics these days. I wonder if the fact there's no "perfect" mark in either of those sports anymore has anything to do with it?

And could someone please explain how making the judges anonymous is supposed to reduce judging corruption again? :rolleye:
 
One can't help but nitpick in a Sport. Once can criticize in showbiz.

If the judging is bypassing the definitions of jumps because they are too difficult, then they should eliminate the jump. Of course the sensible thing to do would have a contestant work out the problem and come back next year with a proper jump. The judges can then evaluate that jump for how it was executed.

What, pray tell me, is so wonderful about an attempt to do the correct jump? That should be taken care of by the coach in practice.

As it is, I am confused as to how they arrive at the penalties for incomplete jumps. Some are severe others are not. Just how was that determined?

Joe
 
I hate to sound like I'm in full debate mode, but there was nothing particularly obvious or clear to me about the 6.0 system. When there was a clear winner, it was obvious. Sure, as MM said, when it went the 'wrong' way, I could say wuz-rubbed. But I'm not clear on how last night was so different from before in that regard. I still don't get who 'really' should have won - or are the complaints really that a) people didn't skate so good, and b) they didn't skate so good because CoP makes what they have to do too hard and too 'ugly'? That I can understand - although honestly don't know if I agree with at it entirely - but the suggestion that we walked away scratching our heads about the winner is something I just don't see (wondering about marks, maybe, -but that too is not new - why a 6 or why not a 6 - or why this deduction or not, was often debated in the previous system).

Also, back with 6.0 when there were figures - we, at least I, never saw that part of the competition and saw lot's of free skates where the gold medalists was clearly not the best free skater, sometimes not even close, but I 'got' that there were three phases to the competition, and all counted and could understand the results generally. Wouldn't it be better if we could see both phases on tv - sure would; how I'm not sure since they will always have to be over at least two days if we are to get it live, OR maybe do the sp taped before the live free....but anyway, I find it hard to believe that even causal fans would find it hard to grasp that there are two segments and the points add up.

Finally, when comps were close with 6 and there would be this wierd movement of people - i never understood that - at least now I and the causal fan can say: what, he/she won by .05 points - ??? so and so didn't win??? we can still even wuz-robbed, and we can scream that the judges were too hard on one and not the other...but in the end, we can say the points added up this way and not that other way. I'm really not advocating here - i'm just struck by the very negative reactions to the first competition, and like I said, wondering if it might have more to do with the skating and what CoP is doing to the skating, than to the ability or lack there of for the causal fan for understanding the basic premise of points and a two-part competition.
 
One can't help but nitpick in a Sport. Once can criticize in showbiz.

If the judging is bypassing the definitions of jumps because they are too difficult, then they should eliminate the jump. Of course the sensible thing to do would have a contestant work out the problem and come back next year with a proper jump. The judges can then evaluate that jump for how it was executed.

What, pray tell me, is so wonderful about an attempt to do the correct jump? That should be taken care of by the coach in practice.

As it is, I am confused as to how they arrive at the penalties for incomplete jumps. Some are severe others are not. Just how was that determined?

Joe

Actually I think figure skating is doing better job than most othersports.In football one could kick a 60 yard fieldgoal but only get the same points as a 20 yard fieldgoal.
If a skater only does 2.5 turns were only going to give them credit for doing a double. A double axel is 2.5 turns but it only has a double base value so it is consistant. I believe if a skater does a very good underotated jump they should be downgraded but still get positive GOE's. I think someone could get a 3T< shouldn't be punish twice. The judges should not worry about the rotations that should be left to the tech.
 
Enlight said:
Actually I think figure skating is doing better job than most othersports.In football one could kick a 60 yard fieldgoal but only get the same points as a 20 yard fieldgoal.
But that makes sense, because the team that can move the ball that extra 40 yards to set up a short field goal is rewarded for their efforts by having an easier shot at the end of the drive.
 
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Joesitz said:
As it is, I am confused as to how they arrive at the penalties for incomplete jumps. Some are severe others are not. Just how was that determined?
I am confused, too.

As I asked on the Caroline Zhang thread, does this make sense?

Skater A and skater B both attempt a triple Lutz.

Skater A goes off the proper outside edge, has good heigth, good air position, rotates 985 degrees, lands on the proper edge with good outflow.

Skater B takes off from the wrong edge, has a bad lean in the air, manages 995 degrees of rotation, and falls on the landing.

Who wins? Skater B, 2.0 points to 1.9.
 
I still don't get who 'really' should have won...
Last night isn't a particulary good example, because (IMHO) both contests could have gone either way.

But I am thinking of it now from the point of view of the trying to attract a television and a live audience to these events. IMO you have to please the paying customer, not the inside expert. Otherwise your sport will end up being an elitist enterprize for inside experts, but with no paying customers.

If you turn on you television set and see one guy beat the crap out of the other guy, but the judges give it to the other guy anyway -- that's not a satisfying spectator sport experience.

Example: Casual viewers watchng the 1984 Olympics saw Brian Orser clobber Scott Hamilton in the free skating. A few minutes later they saw Scott on the podium holding his flowers.

Sure the audience was reminded that Scott was ahead on figures, so the free skating really didn't have anything to do with it. And the TV viewer? The more fool you, if you thought you were going to see a competition.

Actually, this is more of an argument to do away with the short program in the Grand Prix events, rather than a criticism of CoP judging.

The format for the old cheesefests was perfect. You came, you skated, competitors hardly ever fell down, the best skater won $50,000, the others got a little less, there was a shouting contest to see who could yell "Go Michelle" or "Go Irina" the loudest, and all the fans went home happy. Just like a real sport. :rock:
 
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Math, I disagree with getting rid of the short program... I like the short program, and I think it's a good idea to base the winner on two programs.

You just need to show the short programs on tv, and it wouldn't hurt to give people a recap... But I had no issue with for example Joubert winning worlds last year based on the strength of his short program.
 
One big difference between the old 6.0 and the new COP system is that under the 6.0, amongst the top 3 competitors, the winner of the LP automatically won regardless of exactly how they did in the SP. In other words, at Skate America, Miki and Evan would've won instead of Kimmie and Daisuke. That makes a big difference. If the audience is only going to get to see the LP LIVE, then they should feel like this is the FINAL of a sort, and is going to decide the winner. After all, the average audience member only cares about the top few skaters, not as much about the placements of the rest.

If skating is going to be competed in rounds, AND the audience is only going to see the FINAL round, then the old 6.0 system made more sense than the new COP.

Maybe COP could be modeled more after tennis:
round 1: qualifying LP, bottom half eliminated
round 2: SP, bottom half eliminated
round 3: final LP, placements determined by round 3 results alone
Round 1 could be bypassed in small events (e.g. GP events). To protect top seeds, maybe they could have round 1 byes in large competitions. :)

Too bad for the skaters who get eliminated early, but hey, at least everyone got to skate their long once, and half got to skate their short.
 
Math, I disagree with getting rid of the short program... I like the short program, and I think it's a good idea to base the winner on two programs.

You just need to show the short programs on tv, and it wouldn't hurt to give people a recap... But I had no issue with for example Joubert winning worlds last year based on the strength of his short program.


I could not agree more. I don't want skating competitions to be reduced to just one performance. I also think it treats audiences as if they are stupid to insist that people can't understand that it's the combination of scores of two programs that determine the winner. Just because American TV so often shows so little actual coverage of an event, is not a selling point to me in determining an entire competitive structure.

I like that COP has made it much more of an actual competition, because anyone CAN still win after the short, as long as their scores were close enough. I disliked it being reduced to just three — it ended up with some very arbitrary and undeserved placements.

And no, I don't think Ando or Lysacek should have won their respective disciplines.
 
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