Mixed Reviews on Zhang's Debut
- Thread starter carolinefan177
- Start date
Caroline is quoted in several SA review articles as saying: "I didn't really expect it (the downgrades), but I'll get to work harder and try to get it cleaner." Good, I'm glad she's taking a positive attitude.
I still think that "Ave Maria" in its current version/cut is not a good choice for her! It makes her too comfortable and relaxed, and encourages her to skate slower -- that's the last thing she needs! In the SP, when the music picked up speed, she did too. In the LP, musical urges alone would encourage her not to rush it.
I still think that "Ave Maria" in its current version/cut is not a good choice for her! It makes her too comfortable and relaxed, and encourages her to skate slower -- that's the last thing she needs! In the SP, when the music picked up speed, she did too. In the LP, musical urges alone would encourage her not to rush it.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
I watched them on japanese tv and it was about 3 quarter of a half cheat, Kimmie also underroted at least one jump, and Miki too. I wasn t really watching, but they had zoomed the cameras on the feet, it was reallly clear.
Very nice. I wasn't that crazy about the program when she skated it in Japan last month, but it somehow seems a lot more exciting this time around. The music sounded like it had swells in it, and she was enjoying herself. I LOVE her spins. And I like how the audience is welcoming her onto the ice with more and more enthusiasm each time she comes out. I think she will have a long and successful professional career ahead of her, if she wants that, when she chooses to retire. Perhaps she can help getting the professional circuit revived again, now that competitive skating is offering less and less financial incentive.
I wish she would use music with at least as much energy in her competitive programs too, she needs it.
I still think that toward the end of her career, Michelle Kwan picked more energetic pieces in order to motivate herself to be sharper & faster on ice -- and I think it worked too. It also gets the crowd into it, whose energy the skater can feed on.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2005
A Star is Born. Thank you for the link.
Per her exhibition, the layback with the variation in the arm positions is just so beautiful. I think she's starting to get a little more comfortable with the audience.
I'm almost afraid to get too excited over this girl because I know that she has a lot of technical issues to work on. Oh, but what possibilities! If she can take care of the deficiencies, there's no telling how far she can go. So far, she has been remarkably consistent - she's clean at most competitions and has that competitive spirit...both are Michelle Kwan hallmarks she seems to be emulating, which is fantastic.
And I love the version of 'Ave Maria' she's using; she can have a lyrical LP and a more energetic SP, which is fine by me. I swear, if the LP is performed perfectly it can really be something to watch; when she hits the spiral as the voices come in, one is liable to get goosebumps.
I'm almost afraid to get too excited over this girl because I know that she has a lot of technical issues to work on. Oh, but what possibilities! If she can take care of the deficiencies, there's no telling how far she can go. So far, she has been remarkably consistent - she's clean at most competitions and has that competitive spirit...both are Michelle Kwan hallmarks she seems to be emulating, which is fantastic.
And I love the version of 'Ave Maria' she's using; she can have a lyrical LP and a more energetic SP, which is fine by me. I swear, if the LP is performed perfectly it can really be something to watch; when she hits the spiral as the voices come in, one is liable to get goosebumps.
Did Japanese TV show that Caroline was clearly under-rotated on all FIVE triples?
I think the worst thing about all this draconian downgrading is that the commentators come out looking really incompetent, as in they think a jump looks clean and say "well down", "squeaky clean", "beautiful landing", and then it turns out that the technical scores are really low and the skater is placed low. Whether they explain immediately afterwards or some 10 minutes later, that the reason for a low score/placement is due to particular downgrades, the average viewer is bound to be surprised. You lose faith in the comments when you know you can't trust it. And there's almost no way around this. Commentators don't have access to the multi-angle frame-by-frame slow-mo either.
If the commentators start being more skeptical about more jumps, as in "that jump looked good, but I'm not sure, it might or might not get downgraded..." Depending on the technical controller, and the replay, maybe the jumps will get downgraded, maybe not. In the end, it's going to seem like a lottery to the spectator (it is a spectator sport!).
Which spectator would want to watch a sport that seems like a lottery?
Plus, I totally agree that a slightly cheated triple, with otherwise good position in the air, flow, etc., should not be given less credit than a flawed double -- with a hand down, stepped out, shaky landing lurching forward, etc. What kind of stupid, irrational system is this?!
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2006
The "draconian" downgrading as you called it....it is relevant at this point in the CoP. The ladies DO need to clean up their techniques and fully rotate their jumps (at least to less than 1/4 under-rotation...Zhang isn't the only skater at fault here (technique issues as well as under-rotation...EH had downgrades, and I am sure that there will be many more to come in the upcoming GP events as word is out that the ladies DO need to clean up their acts). Otherwise, the sliding scale that was used in the past in awarding "fully rotated triples will come back and then it is a matter of "preference" of a certain skater over another, or "past history" as in..."so-and-so rarely under-rotates their jumps, so despite what the judging/tech panel observed on the ice in the last 4 to 4 and a half minutes, lets award this skater the fully rotated jumps". The CoP is also used as a way to reward, not just penalize what the skater put out on the ice in their competitive program...they may skate "up" when they compete and put a better program out on the ice than their practices (MK was known to have less than stellar practices on occaision). I also think that the tech panel/caller are paying closer attention on practice sessions as well...if a skater consistently under-rotates a jump or has a poor technique on an element, there is greater likelihood that their elements will be called for review during the actual competition.
I think it really comes down to the commentators becoming better informed, and trying to share that with the viewing audience. What is wrong with asking them to take the time to learn the new system? Afterall, this is a job that they are getting paid to do.
Not disagreeing with full rotation is good technique/skating and should be rewarded, just not agreeing with the extent of penalty for an under-rotation. Besides, everything else (including flutzing) is graded by degree of severity/merit, why is under-rotation not?
Nothing, except that it's impossible for them, even with good training, to determine accurately in real time whether a jump is/should be downgraded. Sometimes it's hard to tell even with slow-mo, unless you have multiple-angle viewing, and frame-by-frame pausing. It's not rational to use high-tech replays in a big part of judging, when the commentators nor the audience have access to that technology. In other sports, when replays are used, we all get to see it. I like how in tennis they make a lot of effort to help the audience see whether a ball is in or out. They should make the same effort in skating; or if it's impossible to do it, then they should considering changing the rules! (Why not, they've been changing it every few months so far.)
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
What so many posters see so many underrotations without me viewing what exactly they saw. I do not believe for one minute that they didn't see overrotations but I didn't in many cases and in many cases with the judges.
If there was some way a poster could transpose the actual underrotated jump to his/her post, it would be most advantages for all to agree.
BTW, I spoke of this before. The camera people could take all sided views of the jumps and in slomo, show it up on that Screen near the roof, we could all be happier. It'll keep the Tech Asst on his toes, too.
It is done in all Sports except figure skating. No question for the Referees in Tennis anymore, the foul is there outside the bounds. Jimmy Connors be quiet.
Joe
If there was some way a poster could transpose the actual underrotated jump to his/her post, it would be most advantages for all to agree.
BTW, I spoke of this before. The camera people could take all sided views of the jumps and in slomo, show it up on that Screen near the roof, we could all be happier. It'll keep the Tech Asst on his toes, too.
It is done in all Sports except figure skating. No question for the Referees in Tennis anymore, the foul is there outside the bounds. Jimmy Connors be quiet.
Joe
Feraina, have patience and the good results will come. 
A bronze medal on debut is a great achievement for a 14 years old girl.
Take the downgrading positively! Now she will work more on her jumps. She has already said that she wants to fix it. Time will tell. The positive thing is that she has determination. Joannie Rochette fixed her Lutz, Arakawa fixed her underrotations. It is possible.
ITA, the LP music is too slow and it slows her skating. She has to choose something more quick (at least in some parts of the program) to speed it up.
A bronze medal on debut is a great achievement for a 14 years old girl.
Take the downgrading positively! Now she will work more on her jumps. She has already said that she wants to fix it. Time will tell. The positive thing is that she has determination. Joannie Rochette fixed her Lutz, Arakawa fixed her underrotations. It is possible.
ITA, the LP music is too slow and it slows her skating. She has to choose something more quick (at least in some parts of the program) to speed it up.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
Just watched her SP and exhibition (isn't the LP on youtube?) without sound (much more informative). Random, uninformed comments:
There's a lot to like about her basic skills though there's rough patches too. More senior-like than the first videos I saw of her (though still skates a lot like a junior).
She has _it_, the ability to fill the arena with her personality (I think some of her more vociferous fans are bowled over by her very obvious charisma and not paying attention to the details).
She seems to have a superior sense of body position and has a great understanding of how to create interesting visuals with her body while skating. I really liked a lot of her in-betweens which are excellent.
I don't like most of her spirals, not enough lean, she's balancing up and down too much (the word 'spiral' is supposed to refer to the tracing created by a secure edge held a long time). I don't care high straight up the free leg is if the edge isn't deep and held.
The layback in the exhibition was exceptional, beautiful, nice, original positions and it went on and on and on (though she should have dropped the last few revolutions when she was losing speed). But really overall that's as good as I've seen .... well, ever.
Her camel spin on the other hand .... isn't very good. In both programs there's something off about how she goes into it and she starts losing balance as the circles she's tracing are too big. I think she needs to go back to more basic position and not vary from that until she can hold the spin on the sweet spot of the blade (which she doesn't do here).
She's trying to drive me crazy with her jump 'technique'. Hint: at no time in any jump takeoff should your foot (and knee!) be above your waist. Really she's _got_ to fix that high kicking leg (or the judges will never be won over).
I'd cut back on the extreme flexibility moves too. There's a fine line between Wow! and Eww! and she hits Eww! too often for my tastes. With flexibility, less is often more.
There's a lot to like about her basic skills though there's rough patches too. More senior-like than the first videos I saw of her (though still skates a lot like a junior).
She has _it_, the ability to fill the arena with her personality (I think some of her more vociferous fans are bowled over by her very obvious charisma and not paying attention to the details).
She seems to have a superior sense of body position and has a great understanding of how to create interesting visuals with her body while skating. I really liked a lot of her in-betweens which are excellent.
I don't like most of her spirals, not enough lean, she's balancing up and down too much (the word 'spiral' is supposed to refer to the tracing created by a secure edge held a long time). I don't care high straight up the free leg is if the edge isn't deep and held.
The layback in the exhibition was exceptional, beautiful, nice, original positions and it went on and on and on (though she should have dropped the last few revolutions when she was losing speed). But really overall that's as good as I've seen .... well, ever.
Her camel spin on the other hand .... isn't very good. In both programs there's something off about how she goes into it and she starts losing balance as the circles she's tracing are too big. I think she needs to go back to more basic position and not vary from that until she can hold the spin on the sweet spot of the blade (which she doesn't do here).
She's trying to drive me crazy with her jump 'technique'. Hint: at no time in any jump takeoff should your foot (and knee!) be above your waist. Really she's _got_ to fix that high kicking leg (or the judges will never be won over).
I'd cut back on the extreme flexibility moves too. There's a fine line between Wow! and Eww! and she hits Eww! too often for my tastes. With flexibility, less is often more.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
About the exhibition number, first, isn't there some way to tweak the CoP so that a layback spin like that gets more points than mere quad combo?
Second, I think she got all the way on the outside edge (although it was a short and wobbly one) on her triple Lutz/double loop/double loop combo. Does anyone agree or disagree?
Second, I think she got all the way on the outside edge (although it was a short and wobbly one) on her triple Lutz/double loop/double loop combo. Does anyone agree or disagree?
gorgeous, just gorgeous. wow. thanks for the link.
I'm not sure about the edge - i can't get beyond the high kick, it actually makes my foot hurt (the one picking with her).
About the layback - wow, wow, wow...how do we get voting rights on the ISU 'cuz i'd form a voting block with you in a second.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
This is what doesn't make sense to me.
Skater A does a fine but slightly underrotated triple Lutz. Secure outside take-off edge, good height, nice air position, good flow out of the landing, but comes up a few degrees short of the required 990..
Skater B goes off the wrong edge, bad lean in the air, can't hold the landing, falls and breaks her ankle -- but she managed 995 degrees of revolution in the air.
According to the CoP, who performed the element better?
Answer: Skater B wins, 2.0 points to 1.9.
To me, evey jump is underroated. You are turning when you take off and still turning on the landing. If you landed with with your blade pointing exactly straight up and down you would overrotate and fall. (or so it looks to me.)
I do not think it is possible to determine, even in slow motion and stop-frame, the precise instant at with the blade first makes contact with the ice (or for that matter, the exact angle of of the blade when it leaves the ice.)
What would be wrong with having the judges take off on GOE for slight underrotations, the same as for other technical mistakes?
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