Mixed Reviews on Zhang's Debut

[feraina]

Feraina, have patience and the good results will come.
A bronze medal on debut is a great achievement for a 14 years old girl.

Sorry, patience is not one of my strong points.

GoldenSkate has detailed reports SA (as most of you probably know), here's Sunday's: http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2007/sa_3.shtml

"I didn't expect a medal," admitted the 14-year-old. "I was hoping for a top six placement. I can't believe that I have a Grand Prix medal!"

It was a great senior debut. Hope she takes it all very positively!

"I am going home to work on fixing the downgrades on everything, and I want to improve my footwork and spins."

Fixing downgrades, great! She's a tough cookie, I look forward to an even stronger showing at CoC.

Improving footwork, awesome! Speed issues aside, I think it's great how she has good basic skating skills in the sense that she keeps her upperbody strong and upright throughout the quick turns and skips in the footwork sequence. Miki, for instance, has a lot of trouble keeping her back up (though this year she looks better). But the COP does not reward good posture, in fact it allows people with poor posture to hide it by rewarding footwork sequences that have a lot of dipping upperbody movements. I hope Caroline gets someone to fix her footwork sequences so that she can incorporate more upperbody movements (hopefully in a fluid, musical way), or she will never get above level 2. *sigh*

But improving spins?! Wah, no! No need to waste precious training time and physical energy on those amazing spins when other things could benefit much more from "working on them." *LOL*

 

[Mafke]

Mafke is mildly impressed. Woot, Caroline, you've done your job!

Actually I'm very impressed, more than I expected but half (at least) of the fun in watching skating for me is fine-grained critiques of technique.

I'm not interested in being 'moved' by performances, I prefer to be intrigued by the way skaters do (or don't) meet the myriad challenges of that make up even the simplest moves. I like the formalism of matching actual performances to an almost Platonic ideal of perfect technique (that no one comes or can come close to). I understand it's not everybody's cup o' tea but it is mine
.

 

[Andalusia]

Well, she says that what sets her apart is "My desire to improve, my resilience in any situation, my refusal to be intimidated, and my ability to sit on my exercise ball for eight-and-a-half minutes!"...so we definitely know she's got the determination aspect down pat.

 

[feraina]

I do not think it is possible to determine, even in slow motion and stop-frame, the precise instant at with the blade first makes contact with the ice (or for that matter, the exact angle of of the blade when it leaves the ice.)

It's probably theoretically impossible to determine if a jump was 269 or 270 degrees, because on top of the impossibility of determine exactly when the blade touches the ice, nobody ever said its 270 degrees around WHICH axis. Is the axis centered on the landing foot (toe pick?), the center of mass of the skater, the projection of the take-off direction, or something else? Changing the center of axis makes a huge difference in determining the exact angle.

And the maddening thing is that there is ONE technical specialist to calls all the levels and deductions (correct me if I'm wrong), and there's no way to challenge that.

Of course computers can be wrong too (one reason why Federer opposes the introduction of Hawkeye in tennis), because it's impossible to say exactly where the ball touched ground (Hawkeye uses a vertical projection onto the ground, but the ball usually touches on a point on the underside first, plus there's distortion to the sphere due to its physical motion and contact with ground), but at least it's self-consistent. If technical specialists could be self-consistent across all competitions and disciplines, that would be a big step in the right direction. There is a panel of judges from different countries because people do have their personal biases and make mistakes -- a large number of judges serves to average out these individual effects.

Allowing one human technical controller to determine a large portion of the final score is giving that one person far too much power, and making the system far too prone to erratic human errors and biases.

Who WAS the technical specialist in this event? And WHY was Evan's quad not downgraded?

 

[Andalusia]

Actually I'm very impressed, more than I expected but half (at least) of the fun in watching skating for me is fine-grained critiques of technique.

I'm not interested in being 'moved' by performances, I prefer to be intrigued by the way skaters do (or don't) meet the myriad challenges of that make up even the simplest moves. I like the formalism of matching actual performances to an almost Platonic ideal of perfect technique (that no one comes or can come close to). I understand it's not everybody's cup o' tea but it is mine
.

Interesting. I'm the complete opposite. I know very little about technique, and am very much about being 'moved'. Of course, the closer one's technique is to perfection, the more likely the skater is to creating a moving impression.

Just goes to show that skating has something for everybody!

 

[Andalusia]

Who WAS the technical specialist in this event? And WHY was Evan's quad not downgraded?

For the ladies' event, it was one Jayson Peace from Canada. Vladimir Petrenko (the brother of OGM Viktor Petrenko) also sat on the technical team.

 

[feraina]

For the ladies' event, it was one Jayson Peace from Canada. Vladimir Petrenko (the brother of OGM Viktor Petrenko) also sat on the technical team.

I wondered about that Petrenko, now I remember hearing the names announced. What about the men's? Where can one find out such info?

 

[Andalusia]

I wondered about that Petrenko, now I remember hearing the names announced. What about the men's? Where can one find out such info?

Here ya go:

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpusa07/SEG002OF.HTM

 

[feraina]

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpusa07/SEG002OF.HTM

Thanks!

 

[gkelly]

And the maddening thing is that there is ONE technical specialist to calls all the levels and deductions (correct me if I'm wrong), and there's no way to challenge that.

There are three people on the technical panel (technical controller, technical specialist, assistant technical specialist) and they review all potential downgrades together on video at the end of the performance. If they disagree with each other, the decision follows two out of the three.

There really isn't a way for anyone outside that panel to challenge those decisions afterward. Outright mistakes, such as calling a loop a toe loop, can be challenged before the scores and results are finalized, but it's a narrow window of time.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There really isn't a way for anyone outside that panel to challenge those decisions afterward. Outright mistakes, such as calling a loop a toe loop, can be challenged before the scores and results are finalized, but it's a narrow window of time.

But it would be nice if the fans could see what they see on their private video.

 

[feraina]

But it would be nice if the fans could see what they see on their private video.

I second that! Also makes sure they're doing their job properly.

I think it would be fun/educational for the viewers to see how the results are derived.

 

[enlight78]

Is Caroline the only skater to get a perfect score on an element?Every judge gave her a +3 on her layback spin in the LP.

 

[Cal Girl]

It seems every time someone talks badly about Caroline's speed and jump height they think that it will get better when she "grows"
I however think technique practiced for 10+ years is not going to be easy to change, if ever. And, furthermore, if you look at the size of the podium picture from the Japan/USA challenge you will notice none of the ladies is huge, however, they jump a lot bigger than CZ, comparatively.
I see no problem with down grading jumps, even if the caller is heavy handed as long as it is done across the board. And it was.
A clean high triple with good technique and nice fllow should be worth that much more!

One more thing. I think we need a "technical announcer" as every time they oooh and ahhh over something done well we add points in our head to a score. Unfortunately, as with Caroline's LP, the points dont add up to the skate.

 

[feraina]

It seems every time someone talks badly about Caroline's speed and jump height they think that it will get better when she "grows"
I however think technique practiced for 10+ years is not going to be easy to change, if ever. And, furthermore, if you look at the size of the podium picture from the Japan/USA challenge you will notice none of the ladies is huge, however, they jump a lot bigger than CZ, comparatively.

Miki is listed as 5'4, Kimmie as 5'3, Caroline as 4'11. A coincidence that the size of their jumps decrease in that order too? 5 inches might not seem like a big deal, but if someone were 5'9, 5 inches taller than Miki, she'd be huge in skating terms (have there been any internationally successful 5'9 female skaters?). "Growing up" doesn't just mean gaining height, but also weight and in particular stronger muscles and joints, not to mention competitive experience.

Out of curiosity, I went back and watched Miki skating when she turned 14:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojjrdviARDI
and I also looked up Kimmie at 14:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgr_1AZ9UDY
(Keep in mind, though, that both of these are well into the season)

First of all, they're so cute! Especially Kimmie.

I think it's clear that they were both much weaker, slower, juniorish than they are now. While there's no doubt that for most female skaters, speed and jump height steadily decline through their 20's, I think most who successfully survive puberty actually gain speed, power, and height through their teen's. Plus, see how many under-rotated jumps you can spot in those two programs!

There's no guarantee that Caroline will get better, or that she'll cope with puberty well, but certainly chances are good that she will gain speed and height on her jumps and skating in general. Besides, she already is a much better an artist and spinner than the "grown-up" Kimmie & Miki.

 

[Lucy25]

As Caroline grows she will get stronger, which should help on her jump height. I am willing to see how she develops and not rip her apart now at the ripe old age of fourteen. All of us have seen skaters vastly improve technique with their experience, and I think she has the determination (from all I have read from her) to do so. I think she is just lovely and is clearly the best spinner I have seen in I don't know how long. Whether or not she eventually makes it to the top of any podium, I am pretty sure I will enjoy watching her skate. I am really pleased that she is being mentored by Michelle Kwan; I am pretty sure Michelle has plenty of advice she can give, on both the physical and mental side of skating.

 

[manleywoman]

I thought it was a good debut, but I don't get all the ooohs and aaaahs that people seem to giv eher. With the exception of her incredible layback and spirals, of course! Those are impressive for sure.

 

[emma]

Well, i think it IS the spins and for some the spirals that are being ooooed and aaahed at. I showed her exhibition at work today to some non-skating people, wanted to walk away at the beginning with the jumps and then asked me to replay more than once once they saw the spins....they are unbelievable.

And for a few more of us, we see presence and charisma in spades!

 

[zhang fan]

The ISU needs to require ground level cameras at all international events.

 

[chuckm]

Caroline Zhang's jumps should not have been downgraded at all. When I watched them in slow-motion they all (with the exception of the salchow she fell on) fell within the definition of a "clean" jump (less than a quarter turn cheat).

I don't know what the judges were looking at but Caroline's jumps were cleaner than Miki's, Kimmie's, or anyone else's in the competition except Mira Leung. I think this was an attempt by the judges to sandbag Caroline Zhang and prevent her from outshining the older ladies (who were all far less trained and competition ready than Caroline).

FYI, all of the ladies had jumps downgraded, including Mira Leung, who has to have the WORST jump technique I've ever seen. Mira drops her shoulders and arms down, then cranes her neck up just before she jumps. Her 2A in the SP was downgraded (just as it was at Worlds 2007), and her lutz and flip were downgraded in the FS, just as they were all last season.

Please don't hold up Leung as an example of a clean jumper. She is not.