Mixed Reviews on Zhang's Debut

[fairly4]

skate america scores

if they downgraded the womens, how come they didn't downgrade the pairs, dance and mens events as well.

only the womens were downgraded and they were especially hard on caroline.
the judges missed 1 of mira, and 1 of kimmies and they didn't take off on emily's wide swinging landing of her jumps, i can name a few others.
so the hard scoring of skate america in the womens event is bogus unless they are that hard on all the other disciplines (mens, pairs, and dance).

 

[Mafke]

I think an obvious answer to 'why so many downgraded ladies jumps?' is:

there were a lot of underrotated jumps, which simply raises the new question "why so many underrotated jumps?"

Without having seen more than glimpse of the competition, my guess is that there was a combination of a very strict technical committee (nothing wrong with that if they're strict across the board) and a slow ice surface (lots of comments about how all the ladies were slow(er than usual)) which made it hard for them to get all their rotations in. (Either the ice wasn't as slow in earlier phases or it affected the ladies more)

If anything this scenario favors the habitual underrotaters and penalizes those that usually don't underrotate as they lose their advantage.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's time to get Instant Replay on that big screen just below the roof (it has a name but I'll be darned if I can remember it.) Once that is in place, the skaters' jump techniques will improve substantially and the Technical Trio better be correct if the audience sees the replay, Instant Replay could cause an uproar if the audience does not agree with the Caller. Cinquanta does not like uproars. They threaten his job.

It would require a trained camera man to focus on take-offs and landings. Why not?

Joe

 

[fairly4]

caroline

if they are going to be that nitpicky for one discipline. they should be for all. otherwise it is cheating. it is favoritism.

they gave full credit to the jumps, spins and than they took off the point (goe) or mandatory deduction in the long for all the disciplines except the women.

but this is figure skating, they cheated when the started the sport, they still are.
this new system makes it easier for the judges to cheat. yes they have to give certain points for jumps and such ,they can still cheat by downgrade when their isn't a downgrade, upgrade a jump when their shouldn't be. they can inflate program componets scores etc.

they can still uphold they favorite skaters, coach-they skaters who skate for that coach and uphold the skaters who their federation wants to push, uphold skaters who have the olympics coming up in the backyard and such.
they are reverting back to how the graded figures.

 

[bekalc]

Fairly, there was different callers for each discipline. And apparently this caller is very strict. It wasn't cheating it's just one caller is stricter than the other. Seeing as the men/women aren't competiting each other, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Mathman]

Welcome to the forum, Fairly4. Post often, post long! :agree:

 

[chuckm]

The caller in the Ladies events was Jayson Peace (CAN). The callers were diffferent for the other disciplines, which is why Ladies took such a hit.

That said, I was surprised to see that Mira got less hits for underrotation than many other ladies did, and Mira has always been a notorious underrotater.

I hope NEVER to see Peace calling at another major event.

 

[emma]

Maybe this is a really dumb question - but, if the caller is uniform - calling underrotations througout an event or calling 'critically' for all competitors in that segment of the event, doesn't the end result end up the same? I mean, isn't the problem when the rules are applied unevenly within a portion of the comp - say the Ladies LP. HEre, from what people are saying, the caller was tough but uniform in the portion she judged, so in the end, doesn't that actually help the skaters more at the beginning of the season?

 

[chuckm]

IMO, the only skater who benefitted from the deductions was Mira Leung because the caller saw fit to penalize her a lot less than other skaters. It didn't help her make it to the podium because she gets such low PCS scores.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's a simple fact of 'let's get Zhang' for getting too much attention being taken away from other skaters. It'll all simmer down in COC where she will meet YuNa.

Zhang has time for 2014 but the question of underrotations will linger on until they install an Instant Replay for the audience to see like they do in other sports. I know, I know figure skating is different and we don't want the public to know too much otherwise......well, you know.

Joe

 

[bekalc]

The caller in the Ladies events was Jayson Peace (CAN). The callers were diffferent for the other disciplines, which is why Ladies took such a hit.

That said, I was surprised to see that Mira got less hits for underrotation than many other ladies did, and Mira has always been a notorious underrotater.

I hope NEVER to see Peace calling at another major event.

Why? Everyone got dinged, just some worse than others. I have no real issue with this...

 

[Sdongxie]

I watched the short program live on NTV by the WebTV software, and I did really think she get the 3/3 clean. When I saw her nailed the toe, I almost shout out. As I love Caroline for a long time, and I worried about her 3/3 after seeing the Internationl Counter Match. I thought she had some problem in landing that. So I'm happy to see she get it!!

Although the flip had been downgraded, I think the reason must be the way she takes off, So she still has tons of work to do. Oh my little Caroline

 

[chuckm]

Why? Everyone got dinged, just some worse than others. I have no real issue with this...

I have an issue because Leung is a notorious underrotater, and she got less dings than the others who are NOT known for underrotating. It just happens that the caller was Canadian, and so is Leung....hwell:

 

[feraina]

Well, I think on the whole this may not have been the worst senior debut for Caroline. She got a GP bronze medal, which is more than what many other seasoned US senior ladies can say, while also not setting up expectations too high for her to medal in GPF or even qualify for the GPF (not that it's impossible, just not likely). So she managed to live up to the expectations as well as eliminate the pressure -- that's a great start considering how much hype/gushing surrounded this kid!

Of course the downgrades/e's were troubling, but if they help to motivate her to improve her jump techniques, then that's great in the long run. Bad technique is hard to get rid of when you're 14, but next to impossible when you're 18 -- any bets on Kimmie/Evan never fixing their toe-axeling/axel-prerotating at this point? -- if she keeps on getting away with it, then Caroline might never fix her problems either.

There are also other positive things to take away from SA, like her improved L2 footwork sequences (she got similar or even higher levels/scores than Miki & Kimmie on these, and last year she was criticized for her lack of speed, power, musicality, etc. Not that they're perfect now, but the early results are encouraging), which she obviously worked hard on over the summer. She also got reasonable PCS for the LP (though undermarked in the SP, IMHO, as that was overall a better skated program), so it should be reassuring that the judges don't plan to hold her down through the PCS, even if the technical specialists for whatever reasons find faults with her skating. Another nice thing is that she still hasn't maxed out the points on things she's strongest in (plenty of level 3 spins, even a level 1 spiral sequence!), and these are areas where she can easily garner more points in future competitions just by counting revolutions and holding positions longer -- unlike the jumping issues which will take more work and time.

I disagree that the overall effect of having amazing spins, spirals, and charisma is negative in that it emphasizes the relatively weak jumps -- I think they help to get the audience & jugdges into the performance, and help her with the PCS on top of the individual +GOE's.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Zhang has time for 2014 but the question of underrotations will linger on until they install an Instant Replay for the audience to see like they do in other sports. I know, I know figure skating is different and we don't want the public to know too much otherwise......well, you know.

Joe

Replay for the audience doesn't affect the calls AT ALL in other sports. There are replay rules in other sports, but the audience isn't part of the equation.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Replay for the audience doesn't affect the calls AT ALL in other sports. There are replay rules in other sports, but the audience isn't part of the equation.

Doesnt matter. Fans of any sport, love their sport and want to know everything about it. Watching the tennis ball on instant replay go off the boundary line is quite fulfilling regardless of what the Ref said.

What isn't part of the equation can fill a a retired coach's autobiograpy. Nothing wrong with being open about all things in sports.

Joe

 

[Mafke]

Well, I think on the whole this may not have been the worst senior debut for Caroline.

It was an excellent debut. She got onto the podium, charmed the audience and, far more importantly, learned a lot (hopefully) about what she needs to work on to be really competitive when she's on the senior circuit for real. I can't imagine who'd be disappointed with that.

 

[hockeyfan228]

What isn't part of the equation can fill a a retired coach's autobiograpy. Nothing wrong with being open about all things in sports.

Joe

It's only "open" if it's meaningful. I remember that a while ago, after I posted a long list of different jumps that I "analyzed" using a pretty big screen and TiVo, with stop-action ("Her foot was facing 12 o'clock when she left the ice and 10 o'clock when she landed, so it was obviously underrotated," etc.), someone wrote in to say that to really identify true rotation, special software was needed, and that standard video replays were inadequate and inaccurate.

Assuming this to be true, then to show the replays the way a network would show a baseball slide and tag using their cameras would be neither open nor fair.

 

[hockeyfan228]

IMO, the only skater who benefitted from the deductions was Mira Leung because the caller saw fit to penalize her a lot less than other skaters. It didn't help her make it to the podium because she gets such low PCS scores.

This is only true if she underrotated at this event, as opposed to having her jumps called underrotated because she "always" underrotates them.

A skater who rotates his/her jumps and gets credit, while those who don't get penalized, should benefit.

 

[feraina]

A great photo of Caroline in the short program:
http://media.startribune.com/smedia/2007/10/27/22/700-2skat1028.standalone.prod_affiliate.2.jpg

The design of that dress is so intricate and subtle. It's really beautiful up close. A pity you can't really see any of the details from the stands or on youtube or web streaming, which will be the major form of access for most viewers, especially as it is a SP costume.

I love that pose too. Nobody can accuse her of lacking emotion or expression on ice in this program.