2021 Worlds are still on

[el henry]

I don't know what the above has to do with what I said.
It's not about last chances to medal, no one is certain they will medal, not even Nathan or Yuzuru or Shcherbakova, especially this uncertain season with possible positive tests and the like.
It's about being allowed to compete in an important competition, in a bubble with precautions taken, without pressure that it may get cancelled once again last minute. The possibility is still there but certain fans constantly insisting it should get cancelled when we're two weeks until the event is getting obsessive. The pressure is high enough already with the uncertainty.
You reacted to me saying people project their fear onto others (which is true) and went on a tangent about you being afraid of people coughing near you and you're right to feel that way. I'm afraid too, that's why I'm careful to wash my hands often enough and wear a mask when needed and not go party during a pandemic etc, but Worlds circumstances are a different situation and people DIRECTLY involved can decide on their own if they wanna risk or not. After all it's not like it's illegal to hold competitions. But maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly enough, after all English is not my first language.

I am sorry if I am misunderstanding what you said; I am in awe of all our posters here on Goldenskate who post in English when it is not their native language

I simply wanted to say that I completely understand the desire of skaters to participate in Worlds and that they may want to take the risk. But in my opinion, *their* decision as to whether they want to take the risk is not the most important factor. Public health concerns must take precedence over whether an individual skater wants to take the risk.

But I think now that I have explained that, we either agree or disagree, and it's OK to disagree. Of course I would love to see skating and I truly do hope they can do it safely

 

[rollerblade]

It is not "others business" when it involves other countries skaters. Its only "others business" when its Nationals, that dont involve other countries.
When its an International competition, it becomes others business cos other countries are participating.

If anything were to happen to my country's one and only representative in figure skating at WC(and therefore 2022 Olympics), and it is found its due to lax Covid ruling on the part ISU....
Then, my government will issue a strongly worded letter demanding answers from ISU. With a copy to IOC.

You may have missed the part, where every participant have to sign a waiver.... waiving any and all liability of the ISU and/or the OC of the event for any damages related to the Covid-19 pandemic arising out of or in connection with participation of the event.

 

[eaglehelang]

Off topic, @eaglehelang, but is it confirmed that Julian will be at Worlds? I have doubts as to whether it should go on, but if it does, I hope it can be done safely and to see him.

Julian is supposed to be going, he didnt say he's withdrawing or anything like that in all his social media accounts.
He is our only rep, so he's got to be there.

 

[eaglehelang]

You may have missed the part, where every participant have to sign a waiver.... waiving any and all liability of the ISU and/or the OC of the event for any damages related to the Covid-19 pandemic arising out of or in connection with participation of the event.

All the more reason then it becomes our business & not 'others business'.

The government can still make a formal complaint despite the disclaimer.

 

[rollerblade]

Julian is supposed to be going, he didnt say he's withdrawing or anything like that in all his social media accounts.
He is our only rep, so he's got to be there.

His name is not on the entry list, so I guess he's not going, and will have to earn the country's spot via Nebelhorn.

 

[kan01]

All the more reason then it becomes our business & not 'others business'.

The government can still make a formal complaint despite the disclaimer.

So your solution is to cancel worlds because you pay taxes and your country's skater can get sick because of going to worlds??
I think it belongs to isu, swedish gov and the skater to weigh on the risks. You can be concerned all you want, we on a forum don't get to decide, so I don't see how it's our business. Isu doesn't care what people on a forum think, they will not cancel worlds just like they did not last year, the Canadian gov did days before the start.

 

[Skatesocs]

Isu doesn't care what people on a forum think,

If the ISU doesn't care about what people on a forum think, then there should be no problem if people say on a forum that they think worlds should be canceled.

 

[kan01]

If the ISU doesn't care about what people on a forum think, then there should be no problem if people say on a forum that they think worlds should be canceled.

Exactly. Just like there's no problem with people disagreeing with different points of view and having a conversation. Like I said, meanwhile worlds is still scheduled to take place despite the obsessive "cancel worlds" arguments that keep appearing less than three weeks until the event.
And I think it's unfair to the skaters, not isu, to treat them as children who need their comp cancelled to protect them from themselves. That's kind of the idea I get at least. The pressure is on skaters with all the talk of cancellation not only on forums, but on social media too.

 

[Skatesocs]

Oh and BTW, I'm sure @el henry will tell me what would really happen, if the waiver is signed, and then the ISU fails to enforce its own protocols. Who is liable then? The skaters who thought they should go to worlds because they had this fantastic protocol and so they signed the waiver? It certainly won't be the "RiGhtS oF thE AthLEtE tO cOmPEtE" brigade.

All the petition asked for is proper, airtight protocols. The ISU waiving away all responsibility to the ones who enter the world championships is horrible. No one should cross their fingers and pray about something like this. Hilariously, they had no problem with canceling the congress, guess it saves them all those expenses for the crap, insipid coffee they sip on in lieu of doing anything remotely useful.

And - get this - no one has the right to do whatever they want. It's liberty, not freedom. That's the point el henry is making. No one has the "right to compete", all they have is the right to be a skater. If the right to compete is coming in direct opposition to public health, then bubkes to that. Nor is this imaginary right somehow more important than the lives of the doctors who spend day in and day out curing people, apparently their "right" to just leave the hospital after a year of constant work isn't important enough. Nor apparently are the lives of the people who simply cannot have the choice to stay at home safely more important than the "right" of someone who can stay put at home and live safely with money they no longer have to spend on all the ridiculous expenses for ice time.

 

[katymay]

Skaters train everyday at rinks-they have been all season-and are more than happy and willing to go to Worlds.
This "cancel worlds" thing is getting ridiculous and starts to seem like an obsession. Besides projection of fear onto others' business.
Meanwhile the event is still scheduled to go as planned.

Not to mention, most of us are getting vaccinated. Not to mention, like all pandemics, this one is dying out, and the strains left are far less lethal. Not to mention, among young people, most have probably already been exposed, and had either non-symptomatic COVID or a light case, so probably some herd immunity is starting to kick in.
I can't wait for Worlds. Bring it on.

 

[Amei]

You may have missed the part, where every participant have to sign a waiver.... waiving any and all liability of the ISU and/or the OC of the event for any damages related to the Covid-19 pandemic arising out of or in connection with participation of the event.

Pretty sure participants are required to sign waivers limiting the liability of the ISU when there isn't a "pandemic" happening, a decision to explicitly include mention of the "pandemic" is likely done as an additional protection so that if someone did get something and decided to sue they would likely struggle to find a lawyer to take on a case with an explicitly stated waiver.

 

[el henry]

Oh and BTW, I'm sure @el henry will tell me what would really happen, if the waiver is signed, and then the ISU fails to enforce its own protocols. Who is liable then? The skaters who thought they should go to worlds because they had this fantastic protocol and so they signed the waiver? It certainly won't be the "RiGhtS oF thE AthLEtE tO cOmPEtE" brigade.

All the petition asked for is proper, airtight protocols. The ISU waiving away all responsibility to the ones who enter the world championships is horrible. No one should cross their fingers and pray about something like this. Hilariously, they had no problem with canceling the congress, guess it saves them all those expenses for the crap, insipid coffee they sip on in lieu of doing anything remotely useful.

And - get this - no one has the right to do whatever they want. It's liberty, not freedom. That's the point el henry is making. No one has the "right to compete", all they have is the right to be a skater. If the right to compete is coming in direct opposition to public health, then bubkes to that. Nor is this imaginary right somehow more important than the lives of the doctors who spend day in and day out curing people, apparently their "right" to just leave the hospital after a year of constant work isn't important enough. Nor apparently are the lives of the people who simply cannot have the choice to stay at home safely more important than the "right" of someone who can stay put at home and live safely with money they no longer have to spend on all the ridiculous expenses for ice time.

Thank you for your confidence @Skatesocs but I would not presume to opine as this is in all probability covered by Swiss law, and my guess on that would be that, a total guess. It would be nice if they were held liable so as to ensure enforcement of protocols. I am sure however the ISU will engage in many other legal dodges. Which, as you say, is another reason why a skater should not be permitted to assume the risk in a public health crisis.

And jumping off and not directed at you, I can't help but think that some folks are so anxious to hold Worlds this year because their faves may not medal next year. Well, too bad, so sad, when I weigh a skating medal against a public health crisis, skating medals lose. But that's just me

Also, I don't know about anywhere else, but this public health crisis still exists big time in the US of A. And folks, if it's so darn easy to get a vaccine where you are, please tell me your secret. Category 1A and no vaccine in sight.

 

[rollerblade]

Also, I don't know about anywhere else, but this public health crisis still exists big time in the US of A. And folks, if it's so darn easy to get a vaccine where you are, please tell me your secret. Category 1A and no vaccine in sight.

Apparently vaccine tourism is a thing because some states don't even require proof of state residency for the jabs. But just like with the whole mask debacle, even though it's not mandated at the state level, there may be restrictions at the county level. Best double/triple check before making such a trip.

FDA has approved Johnson & Johnson's vaccines a week ago, so there will be more options available... unless you're in Detroit. :/

 

[eaglehelang]

So your solution is to cancel worlds because you pay taxes and your country's skater can get sick because of going to worlds??
I think it belongs to isu, swedish gov and the skater to weigh on the risks. You can be concerned all you want, we on a forum don't get to decide, so I don't see how it's our business. Isu doesn't care what people on a forum think, they will not cancel worlds just like they did not last year, the Canadian gov did days before the start.

ISU dont care, but our respective governments care. Sweden government has to care.
If you think that forum members are only making complaints in Golden Skate, then you are mistaken.
Complaints goes up to IOC.

By the way, we also express COVID protocols concerns in other sports forums & media in regards to that sport. The World Association/Federation take note of what the public & member countries think.

So, whats so special about figure skating that cannot comment when we do the same in other Olympic sports. In fact more aggressively than we do for figure skating.

 

[ice_tulip]

Not to mention, most of us are getting vaccinated. Not to mention, like all pandemics, this one is dying out, and the strains left are far less lethal. Not to mention, among young people, most have probably already been exposed, and had either non-symptomatic COVID or a light case, so probably some herd immunity is starting to kick in.
I can't wait for Worlds. Bring it on.

Not sure where you are living where "most of us are getting vaccinated" but surely not in the USA where just 8.4% have been fully vaccinated (both doses -- about 16% with at least first dose). In Sweden on average under 4% have received both doses, and under 8% received the 1st dose


The strains are NOT "far less lethal." On the contrary, the new strains tend to be more contagious which leads to greater mortality. Moreover, preliminary data shows some are also more deadly. UK variant is ~40% more deadly, for example. Unfortunately it appears that the current vaccines do not offer as much protection for the corona variants.

Yes, many have already been exposed but current data suggests that immunity from past exposure on average lasts ~6 months: longer for those who had serious cases but much shorter for those with mild or asymptomatic cases.

Sources:
https://www.npr.org/sections/health...d-19-vaccination-campaign-going-in-your-state

https://www.thelocal.se/20210129/charts-how-is-swedens-vaccination-programme-going/

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n230

 

[4everchan]

what do you all think about the fact that in both long track and short track speed skating worlds, Japanese, South Korean and Chinese skaters did not attend? Of course, in figure skating, it seems to be a different game (with qualifiers for Olympics)... but If I were a speed skater from South Korea, where speed skating is pretty much the National sport, I'd be pretty pissed off that I couldn't compete for health restrictions while the country has let figure skaters compete... I feel they should just cancel worlds... in a few months, the planet will be much healthier and safer...

 

[c3zara]

I think we can all agree that Worlds going on or not should be the decision of health professionals. And it is right now. An event like this wouldn’t still be scheduled if it wouldn’t comply with the health regulations in Sweden, if health professionals wouldn’t have given it the green light. It’s not only up to the ISU. ISU has to make sure the rules are respected. At some point the situation might change and it might get canceled ofc. But you don’t know more about the situation in Sweden and public health measures in general than the authorities there, including health professionals, especially if you don’t have a degree in epidemiology and you don’t live there.
I agree that the Olympic spots shouldn’t be decided through this competition though, skaters shouldn’t be pressured to attend if they don’t want to.

 

[norwegianfairytale]

I think we can all agree that Worlds going on or not should be the decision of health professionals. And it is right now. An event like this wouldn’t still be scheduled if it wouldn’t comply with the health regulations in Sweden, if health professionals wouldn’t have given it the green light. It’s not only up to the ISU. ISU has to make sure the rules are respected. At some point the situation might change and it might get canceled ofc. But you don’t know more about the situation in Sweden and public health measures in general than the authorities there, including health professionals, especially if you don’t have a degree in epidemiology and you don’t live there.
I agree that the Olympic spots shouldn’t be decided through this competition though, skaters shouldn’t be pressured to attend if they don’t want to.

Honestly I don´t agree with you that one can trust the public health professionals in Sweden to make good judgements about if Worlds should be cancelled or not. The so-called "chief" with a degree in epidemiology, Anders Tegnell, said one year ago that Stockholm would have reached heard immunity by the end of May 2020, and at the same time he was mocking the Nordic countries for strict measures "You will pay later, just wait, you will have more deaths by the end and we will be done with the pandemic by the summer". The times he said things that was far off, has been many, there have been thousands of excuses, and yet he still will never admit he was wrong or apologize public.

You should also know that doctors or professors who did disagree with Tegnell, was shamed public.

Since then Sweden has bit by bit enforced strict measures, the authorities has slowly turned the table, but they won´t really admit loud that last spring strategy was wrong, instead they explain the change with that the situation has changed and measures are needed now, for example because of the much more contagious mutation.

All though they have turned a bit around, Sweden is still being very hesitating about the use of public face mask. Much because Tegnell has said there is no scientific proof of wearing it and there has been a huge skepticism about the use in Sweden. It was even so bad, that Officials in a small town forced a teacher to remove a mask and they prohibited the use of mask and PPE in schools!! You can read more about the skepticism here.

The skepticism fades a bit now because the infection rates rise. The authorities have finally started to advise people to use more face mask (about 2 weeks ago), but skaters and coaches should be aware that face mask in public is not required, and the use of face mask in Sweden is still very low.

I´m sorry if I have a strong disbelief in they way the authorities have acted. I believe everybody can be wrong and change and make the right decisions. But they way the authorities have been, the shaming of people who had another opinion, it doesn´t make them trustworthy at all. To even forbid a school to use protection, it´s horrific.

The ISU protocols that have been made is not because the health professionals in Sweden has good judgement, but I think the host knows very well there will be standards to follow and of course they work together with ISU. If Worlds goes off and it all goes well, it´s because the ISU protocols has pushed by others to be the best, and that the skaters and the team will be very careful and follow them.

 

[iamchrislao]

I am sorry if I am misunderstanding what you said; I am in awe of all our posters here on Goldenskate who post in English when it is not their native language

I simply wanted to say that I completely understand the desire of skaters to participate in Worlds and that they may want to take the risk. But in my opinion, *their* decision as to whether they want to take the risk is not the most important factor. Public health concerns must take precedence over whether an individual skater wants to take the risk.

But I think now that I have explained that, we either agree or disagree, and it's OK to disagree. Of course I would love to see skating and I truly do hope they can do it safely

Not sure where you are living where "most of us are getting vaccinated" but surely not in the USA where just 8.4% have been fully vaccinated (both doses -- about 16% with at least first dose). In Sweden on average under 4% have received both doses, and under 8% received the 1st dose


The strains are NOT "far less lethal." On the contrary, the new strains tend to be more contagious which leads to greater mortality. Moreover, preliminary data shows some are also more deadly. UK variant is ~40% more deadly, for example. Unfortunately it appears that the current vaccines do not offer as much protection for the corona variants.

Yes, many have already been exposed but current data suggests that immunity from past exposure on average lasts ~6 months: longer for those who had serious cases but much shorter for those with mild or asymptomatic cases.

Sources:
https://www.npr.org/sections/health...d-19-vaccination-campaign-going-in-your-state

https://www.thelocal.se/20210129/charts-how-is-swedens-vaccination-programme-going/

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n230

I agree. This is a no-brainer. Public health > medals

 

[kan01]

I agree. This is a no-brainer. Public health > medals

I agree as well. But even though there could be surprise medalists-especially this edition-yet there are tens and tens of competitors who know realistically they have close to 0 chances to medal, and they want to compete this year anyway. Beyond what fans may or may not desire for them.
They are willing to go besides possible medals or even an Olympic spot for their country as the motive. I don't see many renouncing their spot and leaving the responsibility to alternates for example.
A competition is not only about medals, but also smaller victories like the possibility of skating clean, successfully hitting elements, an improvement in personal scores, the valuable experience you gain in an event of this caliber, etc., etc. These smaller victories could mean nothing for some fans, and skaters alike, who want medals, medals, and more medals, GOATs, ultra-c, and the like, but this sport is much more than all of that, and some skaters are happy to go to Worlds for these smaller victories too, which may be as important to them.
I remember skaters being asked in interviews if they want to attend comps this season, and all of them said they are happy to go as long as there are safety measures in place, which is the case.
On another note, I'm curious if the ones saying Worlds should be canceled will keep the same energy by not watching the event. After all, you can send a message by not giving your view and keeping the boycotting energy to the end. I'm not saying they SHOULD not watch though.


[Quoting another poster (c3zara):] An event like this wouldn’t still be scheduled if it wouldn’t comply with the health regulations in Sweden, if health professionals wouldn’t have given it the green light. It’s not only up to the ISU. ISU has to make sure the rules are respected.

True. And I'm sure ISU is doing everything in their power so that everyone is safe. After all, it's in their own interest for things to go as smoothly as possible. It's easier for us - to watch and comment from the comfort of our chairs and sofas.