Ladies Short Program - SHOWDOWN - Asada vs. Meissner

[sindarin]

In my mind, the "greatest" skater would be one who is capable of landing the easiest triples, Salchow and toe, in competition. The "greatest" skater would also be capable of landing a true Lutz, not a flutz, and would have major international titles to his/her name. The "greatest" skater would have a track record of consistency in the short program and the long program over a long period of time and be a complete skater, technically and artistically. The "greatest" skater to me is still Michelle Wing Kwan.

Couldn't agree more!!

 

[BelleFilleYuna]

Do not forget that there are half a million of mean-spirited Koreans residing in Japan.

Yuna's Lip, Skate Canada(2006)
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yuna+kim,lip&search=Search

Yuna' Lip, 2007 COC, slow motion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNW000UYGaI

I noticed the first clip is done by North Korean, which is totally bogus, since they don't have a free access to internet. But I won't jump to a conclusion that some crazy fan of a certain skater made that clip.

BTW while I wish I don't fall under the category of mean-spirited Korean, or crazy Korean, I do hope moderators will do something about those mindless remarks related to country discrimination. Ahhh I had enough of that with rutiana, or satorare or...whomever!!

 

[Mafke]

Do not forget that there are half a million of mean-spirited Koreans residing in Japan.

I wish all the nationalistic Asada/Kim fans (who don't know enough about skating to have an informed opinion on who skaters better in a given competition but just latch on to the skater's nationality and run with it) that the rest of the world:
a) doesn't care about Japanese and Koreans not liking each other (no, we really don't, sorry),
b) they make themselves (and their side) look worse by nationalistic sniping).

Back to the skating....

I think I'm detecting a new trend in ladies skating that is going to have devastating effects on lots of competitors, namely the NNBT (new next big thing).

Too many fans latch on to new faces too quickly and make too many claims for them and set the expectation bar entirely too high so that the skaters involved can't possibly live up to them. These are still very young women, let's give them some room to actually develop instead of smothering them with our own projections about what we want them do or be.

 

[bekalc]

First of all, what people don't understand is that skater's are given the benefit of the doubt in edge calls. For example all three members of the technical committee have to call it the wrong edge, and they aren't allowed to use video replay...

Seeing as even in Yu-na's "questionable" jumps, it's really close, it makes sense that she's more than likely not going to be called for it. Just as Miki who really fixed her lip wasn't called for it. Who knows if we did a video replay of Miki's we might find a slight outside edge but she wasn't called in Skate America, because it was close...

I think the ISU is only trying to crack down on the "obvious ones."

T-As for their being angry Koreans in Japan, well of course, seeing as Koreans in Japan face a lot of discrimination, from what I've been told... Although I can't imaging how the Japanese would be treated in Korea.

I personally wish the Koreans and the Japanese would cut out all of this nasty nationalistic crap and leave figure skating out of it, as well as these two young girls. Mao and Yu-na have enough pressure on them, without two countries placing ancient feuds on their young shoulders.. Cut it out.

 

[rtureck]

As for my previous post, I wasn't implying Caroline is better than Mao by any means at this point. But, looking at the rate of Caroline's improvement, who knows what she can do by 2010? Caroline is at least attempting to include five different triples in her program, which is laudable. If Caroline comes strong with a solid 3-3 and full set of triple, Mao better be ready to do the same.

Crystal ball prediction into 2010? At 14 (Caroline's current age) Mao was doing 3/3/3 and triple axel. One word puberty. Caroline at 14 is not where near Mao at 14's jumping abilities. Then there will be the injury factor, who knows what will happen by 2010. I love to see fans and press hype Zhang though, hopefully that will take some pressure off Mao.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

First of all, what people don't understand is that skater's are given the benefit of the doubt in edge calls. For example all three members of the technical committee have to call it the wrong edge, and they aren't allowed to use video replay...

And their words are written in stone, even if the all sit on the same side of the arena.!

Joe

 

[museksk8r]

For example all three members of the technical committee have to call it the wrong edge, and they aren't allowed to use video replay...

Video replay should be used as a beneficial tool in this case. There are so many judging scandals in skating that video tape replay should be required at all competitions, particularly the majors (Worlds and Olympics). I remember seeing the Ice Wars broadcast post-'94 Olympics when a slow motion video replay revealed that Oksana Baiul had two-footed the 3toe she threw in during her LP skate, this in addition to the 3flip she had two-footed earlier. In reality, she had done 3 clean triples to Nancy's 5.

 

[bekalc]

Video replay should be used as a beneficial tool in this case. There are so many judging scandals in skating that video tape replay should be required at all competitions, particularly the majors (Worlds and Olympics). I remember seeing the Ice Wars broadcast post-'94 Olympics when a slow motion video replay revealed that Oksana Baiul had two-footed the 3toe she threw in during her LP skate, this in addition to the 3flip she had two-footed earlier. In reality, she had done 3 clean triples to Nancy's 5.

Yes, but it's very different from two footing a jump and well the whole edge thing...Especially in some cases you can get into a lot of arguments about whether it's an inside/outside edge... I've got no issues with the ISU saying that they are only going to deduct obvious edge violations.. Because it's very easy I'm told for a skater to slip into the wrong edge.. The problem is you have some skaters not even attempting the right edge, and these I believe are the skaters they are trying to crack down on.

 

[museksk8r]

The problem is you have some skaters not even attempting the right edge, and these I believe are the skaters they are trying to crack down on.

Yes, that's definitely a problem. The system is cracking the whip on the Tara Lipinskis, Sasha Cohens, Sarah Hughes', and Mao Asadas finally!

 

[sorcerer]

I didn't think that those kind of responses would come right after my post. Any sport is somewhat connected to nationalism, but that is on the basis of mutual respect. (Those who don't understand that simply disgrace their own country.)

IMO being a fan means sharing the truth of the favorite skater.

Miki has very often spoken of the superiority of Mao and YuNa compared to herself in many aspects, she is objective on that; she even openly confesses her consequent struggle to keep her confidence; but her fans (including me) accept Miki's words and believe in her saying that she aims to make her skating better nonetheless.

As shown in this TEB, Mao is excessively perfectionist but that's Mao being herself, and as her fan I accept and admire that perfectionism. A perfectionist should fix the flutz and the lack of jump types. Mao knows that she should.

YuNa is a combination of visual beauty, exquisite skating, and elegance in expressions of art, but nobody is perfectly flawless. I'd say she is the closest to the figure skating ideal, but if she does (I'm never sure) have anything to fix, well she's very young, she can.

I only felt that ISU should avoid any risk of being thought that they are creating bias on its own.

I hope I haven't offended anyone.

 

[Mafke]

Yes, but it's very different from two footing a jump and well the whole edge thing...Especially in some cases you can get into a lot of arguments about whether it's an inside/outside edge...

Well in 6.0 the idea was that a two-footed landing was supposed to negate the jump entirely (judges were never _that_ strict, but that was the theory).
In COP two-footing doesn't seem to be much of a concern, certainly not as much as underrotation (not that huge a concern in 6.0).

 

[bekalc]

Sorcer, personally I really like and respect Miki a lot... She's not as elegant as the other two girls, but I think she's got a wonderful attitude, I totally respect the fact that she fixed her sit spins and her obvious lip... I can't imagine how much pressure Miki was under in her young years ,and she had that disasterous Olympic year.

But I respect Miki just like I respect Joubert because both of them took action, and made changes, and came out better skaters... Thus, Miki has my utmost respect, and I would never count her out...

I see your point about using Yu-na as the ISU text book jumps but I think the ISU just felt they had to use someone. I don't think the ISU has a bias towards Yu-na and if anything because she's from a smaller federation with less power, she's got a disadvantage.

I think that Yu-na's jumps weren't called because even when she slips occassionaly, it's still such a slight edge, that it's not going to be called by the technical panel. JMO But I do think perhaps they could have used a skater not currently competiting..

Well in 6.0 the idea was that a two-footed landing was supposed to negate the jump entirely (judges were never _that_ strict, but that was the theory).
In COP two-footing doesn't seem to be much of a concern, certainly not as much as underrotation (not that huge a concern in 6.0).

Underrotation is reviewed by replay. It's just the edge call that isn't reviewed, and an edge call doesn't carry the same penalty as an underrotation...

 

[Mafke]

Because it's very easy I'm told for a skater to slip into the wrong edge.. The problem is you have some skaters not even attempting the right edge, and these I believe are the skaters they are trying to crack down on.

Good observation, but I think some skaters (cough, Sarah Hughes, cough) changed edge deliberately (at least what it looked like to me). I also get that impression with Zhang, it doesn't like she can't hold the outside edge but is rocking over to the inside on purpose.

 

[bekalc]

Good observation, but I think some skaters (cough, Sarah Hughes, cough) changed edge deliberately (at least what it looked like to me). I also get that impression with Zhang, it doesn't like she can't hold the outside edge but is rocking over to the inside on purpose.

That's what I'm saying.. They are trying to get rid of the obvious ones.

 

[mylastduchess]

Mao is one of those skaters when they make a mistake people go "oooh how could that happen" or "there is something wrong with her this season" and stuff, but she is just human capable of making a mistake. Kimmie makes mistakes just as often as she does but people doesn't seem to be as big of deal when she makes them!

 

[museksk8r]

Mao is one of those skaters when they make a mistake people go "oooh how could that happen" and stuff, but she is just human capable of making a mistake. Kimmie makes mistakes just as often as she does but people doesn't seem to be as big of deal when she makes them!

Really? I get the exact opposite impression on the skating forums I visit.

 

[mylastduchess]

Really? I get the exact opposite impression on the skating forums I visit.

Uhhh... have you read this thread?

 

[Jasper]

Crystal ball prediction into 2010? At 14 (Caroline's current age) Mao was doing 3/3/3 and triple axel. One word puberty. Caroline at 14 is not where near Mao at 14's jumping abilities. Then there will be the injury factor, who knows what will happen by 2010. I love to see fans and press hype Zhang though, hopefully that will take some pressure off Mao.

Who cares what Mao could do at age 14? She's never done a 3/3/3 in competition and her 3A is not consistent at all - no one's is in ladies skating. I think Caroline is a much more complete package than Mao, and I see no reason why she can't compete for Olympic Gold in 2010 once her jumps are consistently ratified.

 

[fumie_fumie]

I hope both Koreans and Japanese stop whining about each other. It gets so annoying. I mean both of them.

 

[bekalc]

I hope both Koreans and Japanese stop whining about each other. It gets so annoying. I mean both of them.

Lol... I'm not Korean or Japanese... And while I prefer Yu-na, I was a bit shocked to see some of the meanness on Youtube that Koreans have towards Mao....

I think a little national rivalry is fun but the vehemance that is shown. And no offense, I'll never forget the fact that for a long time poor Apollo had to have bodyguards when he went to Korea because of what happened in Salt Lake. Hopefully this will never happen with Mao....

Who cares what Mao could do at age 14? She's never done a 3/3/3 in competition and her 3A is not consistent at all - no one's is in ladies skating. I think Caroline is a much more complete package than Mao, and I see no reason why she can't compete for Olympic Gold in 2010 once her jumps are consistently ratified.

Huh, I'm concerned about Mao's triple toe and salchow, although Caroline has issues herself with the salchow... But well I think in areas of basic skating, and artistry Mao has Caroline beat for now... Caroline has a lot of things she needs to work with.