2021-22 U.S. Pairs Figure Skating

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think it's time for C/J to acknowledge that they won't pull off two sets of SBS triples in the LP. They should do a 3S and a 2lz/2t/2t combo. All of their non SBS elements are world class, and they need to max out TES.

They certainly need to come up with different strategic thinking. That's for sure. The jump layout pattern they've been going for is not working. What you suggest makes sense.

Is a double lutz jump in their wheelhouse? Also, can they work on throw 3-flip?

P.S.
I wish I understood more about the pairs training process. Also, I wonder if with C/J whether the problems are more mental than technique-related. Do they often complete their jumps in practices, or no? Why is their 2020 U.S. Nats fp's clean execution such a rarity for them? It has also seemed that if one of them is on and jumping well, the other isn't. They don't seem to match up with jumping well or ill at the same times? So confounding!

C/J definitely need to maximize their points. They also seem to need someone such as a forward-thinking pairs guru to help strategize, not just someone from Raf's staff trying to help with the jump tech. As well, although Nicks-training strategies still have relevance, it's important to also have someone directing and guiding the teams with different thinking approaches that are fresh and more relevant to the current international pairs scene.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Regarding Calalang/Johnson:
A 3S/2T combo (which I believe is what they plan) is worth 5.60 points. A 2A/2T/2T combo is worth 5.90 points. If they can do good double axels, then the combo mentioned 2nd could be a pretty good choice for them.

Yes. I wonder why their team hasn't considered this. Is it blinders and full steam ahead? Or are they incapable of doing double axels and double lutzes? Inquiring minds want to know. Refresh yourselves and your outlook and approach. C/J. Please!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

With Chelsea and Danny, it seems effortless, but it also seems very clear that they care about it and they're committed to developing it. It doesn't earn points per se, but that sort of thing is so clear to audiences.

I'm glad that somebody must have pointed out to the judges that L/O were being shortchanged on GOE on their best quality elements. I liked seeing them smiling through their fp. However, they have to clean up these mistakes. Same as C/J. What's up? Is it that Meno/Sand and crew can train in the basics of learning and growing in pairs, but strategy for veteran teams isn't working? I'm just asking, not indicting. I want this all to work. I love seeing Meno/Sand with such a wonderful group of athletes training in Irvine, CA. And now, Chris Knierim a part of the coaching staff. But they need the blinders off too. You have to adjust when things aren't working.

For example, they know Chelsea from working with her as a young pairs skater. Why on earth can't they help her with the tech issues? Mental issues are something else, requiring different remedies. If it's both, then work on both separately. They are hampered by teams not having enough competitive opportunities. But make simulated opportunities happen.

Chelsea has got to stop touching down with her free leg on the throws, and she's got to get over jitters on the sbs triples. She's causing Danny to mess up because he's worried about her landings. So are they coddled and babied through it and nothing changes? As I said, I'm glad to see relaxed smiles, which is important. But when do you get fired up and start showing improvement on the weak areas? With such great programs, great qualities and being so well-matched, they need to deliver. No rush this season, but please show up stronger at U.S. Nationals. And maybe they get a senior-B befpre U.S. Nats?

I'd spoken about Tarah's fierceness earlier. Altho' Tarah/Danny lacked speed and power together, Tarah was fairly consistent on the jumps and throws. They didn't have a good 3-twist, but they had excellent lifts. The lack power, pop and speed is what kept T&D's scores down internationally. With Chelsea/Danny, they've got practically everything with lots of versatility and range. But if you aren't going to land throws and sbs jumps consistently, that's a problem.

 

[skylark]

I'm glad that somebody must have pointed out to the judges that L/O were being shortchanged on GOE on their best quality elements.

I think Sonia Bianchetti addressed this very well years ago. She predicted that the ISJ system would mean that the judges, having to press a button after each element to evaluate it, would miss the important non-elements, or intangibles. They'd of necessity have to do research ahead of time and/or rely on the skater's reputation, in order to record all their scores, TES and PC, in almost real time. I see this happening across all disciplines. I think that's why it takes 2 good solid appearances for any skaters to be appreciated or their reputations rehabilitated, in the case of their struggling over a few months. (Ref: the TSL interview of Sonia.)

Chelsea has got to stop touching down with her free leg on the throws, and she's got to get over jitters on the sbs triples.

From last week's fanzone article:
"Liu and O'Shea share communication styles and skating techniques — they're still nailing down the timing of their throws, but the rest of their partnership has felt natural. Liu attributes their compatibility to trust, rather than personality."

I will take this opportunity to re-recommend reading this, to anyone who hasn't already had a chance. It has real gems of quotes from both Chelsea & Danny. Also an adorable July 4 photo of them.

Out of Retirement, Chelsea Liu and Danny O’Shea Seek Joy at 2021 Skate America - U.S. Figure Skating

Danny O'Shea didn't formally announce his retirement after 2020 Guaranteed Rate Skate America, but he knew he needed a break. In 2019, Chelsea Liu had also stepped

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think Sonia Bianchetti addressed this very well years ago. She predicted that the ISJ system would mean that the judges, having to press a button after each element to evaluate it, would miss the important non-elements, or intangibles. They'd of necessity have to do research ahead of time and/or rely on the skater's reputation, in order to record all their scores, TES and PC, in almost real time. I see this happening across all disciplines. I think that's why it takes 2 good solid appearances for any skaters to be appreciated or their reputations rehabilitated, in the case of their struggling over a few months. (Ref: the TSL interview of Sonia.)

Still, a lot of this type of scoring is political-based, rep-based for a new team, and just dependent upon what country you're from. If Chelsea/Danny were representing a country with no pairs skaters, or no high quality pairs skaters, such as Taiwan or Denmark or Northern Ireland, then they might receive better scores. They certainly would have the opportunity of going to Worlds every year and improving, like for example, Shen/Zhao did over 20 years ago, in moving from last to first within 8 years or so.

As a U.S. team that are good, but a new partnership who are just building and everyone's uncertain where they'll place because they are good enough to place high 6s and inconsistent enough to place low 6s, L/O are NOT going to get benefit of doubt from the judges. In many respects, L/O were stronger at SA than P/P from Russia, especially in terms of personality, interesting choreography and ice presence, but the judges don't know how to accurately score PCS.

 

[ladyjane]

Still, a lot of this type of scoring is political-based, rep-based for a new team, and just dependent upon what country you're from. If Chelsea/Danny were representing a country with no pairs skaters, or no high quality pairs skaters, such as Taiwan or Denmark or Northern Ireland, then they might receive better scores. They certainly would have the opportunity of going to Worlds every year and improving, like for example, Shen/Zhao did over 20 years ago, in moving from last to first within 8 years or so.

As a U.S. team that are good, but a new partnership who are just building and everyone's uncertain where they'll place because they are good enough to place high 6s and inconsistent enough to place low 6s, L/O are NOT going to get benefit of doubt from the judges. In many respects, L/O were stronger at SA than P/P from Russia, especially in terms of personality, interesting choreography and ice presence, but the judges don't know how to accurately score PCS.

Dear @BlissfulSynergy , though it's absolutely true that new pairs from countries with no pairs heritage would have the opportunity to go to Worlds (every year or at least when they get the minimum TES) and improving and the number 3 (or 4) of the US may not, that's not really the fault of the judges, is it? That's part of the system - and we may agree or disagree on the system as such. But it definitely is not up to the judges and/or callers to decide whether a country can have 2, 3 or even 4 respresentatives.

I'm not so sure about couples getting better scores because they represent an obscure country. Certainly pairs from my own country have not had that kind of benefit. And rightly so. Please don't mention the new Spanish Pair in this discourse. They actually are very good, quite apart from the country they're from. Not better than the Americans, but just good and inspiring in their own thing. Thre same applies to the Japanese Pair. What a joy for us pairs lovers to finally see a genuinely good Japanese pair.

I am not biased in favour or against American pairs (in fact Ashley and Timothy are one of my favourite couples because they are so creative, their lines are superb and their connection is top notch), and I definitely am not one of those people who think the jumps are all (in pairs I think the connection and synchronisation are so much more important) but I really don't think all the scoring is intended to low ball American pairs in particular.

Oh, and by the way, I really enjoy this relatively new team of Liu and O'shea. I can't help it, their joy makes me feel joy too.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Liu and O'Shea share communication styles and skating techniques — they're still nailing down the timing of their throws,

Nice article. Thanks for sharing because I missed it last week. Lots of interesting quotes and information about Liu/O'Shea's partnership.

I would have to say, 'So what?' that they're 'still nailing down the timing of their throws.' That's not an excuse for Chelsea's free leg touching down consistently. It seems more like a bad habit on Chelsea's part, or something in the technique to rethink due to her long legs and thus the free leg needing time to safely clear the ice.

Also, Chelsea had issues with consistent jumping when she skated with Brian Johnson in Juniors (and two seasons in seniors) under Meno/Sand. Her time in China, apparently didn't help her fix the jumping inconsistencies? Is it more anxiety and nerves than it is technique miscues and timing issues? Whatever it is, I hope they figure it out soon.

Because honestly, with the new Spanish team of Barquero/Zandron, who are able to do everything pretty well, there's gonna be heavy politics in B/Z's favor because he's Italian and they train in Italy. Right now, B/Z appear to be working out learning each other better, and building experience and confidence. Interestingly, B/Z skated clean at Finlandia, but in the fp, they were very slow and cautious in trying to ace their elements without any mistakes, which rightly ended up affecting their scores. Still, it was impressive that they didn't make any major errors as a new team.

 

[mrrice]

I was really impressed with Alexa and Brandon during the LP. Brandon is usually a strong jumper and I was surprised to see him struggle. However, I do enjoy both of their programs and look forward to their next event.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

that's not really the fault of the judges, is it?

Scoring biases are the fault of individual judges. I'm not going to allow the judges not being at fault for the ISU's system, to become an excuse to absolve them for their judging decisions, which are too often based on conflicts of interest, country politics, subjective biases, and status quo judging traditions (which are endemic in figure skating), etc.

If this easygoing, 'not their fault' attitude makes what the skaters and discerning fans have to swallow re some of the results at every competition, palatable for some observers, fine. To each their own. I'm a Sagittarius, and I don't flinch from telling it like I see it, for better, for worse.

I can relax a little bit and see the positives too. But I don't see any point in swallowing excuses whole, when the overall goal of my inquiry and of my unflinching commentary is to hope that telling truths might somehow help influence making the judging better and the sport better for the athletes and for the fans.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Brandon is usually a strong jumper and I was surprised to see him struggle.

Brandon probably just had nerves, like he and Alexa both had at 2021 Worlds. They're making good adjustments, and hopefully everything will pay off for them. They're right there, and they have to try and push forward with making the nerves work for them rather than against them, because no judges seem to give U.S. pairs much respect or advantage.

K/F are an exciting U.S. team, but for some reason, it seemed to be set up for other teams to be placed farther ahead in the sp, even with egregious errors. Some people say it is K/F's fault for Brandon's slight fall-out in the sp. It was just excitement and nerves. The judges know how good K/F are, and should at the least give them better GOE and PCS marks when they have a slight mistake. But that hasn't happened yet. Meanwhile, the Russian teams seem to always be spotted 5 or more points in the sp, even with errors. Also, Miura/Kihara apparently are everyone's favorite pairs team. The judges ignored a couple of small miscues by M/K in the sp. Had K/F had the kind of fall M/K had in the fp, oops, they would have been dropped precipitously.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

it definitely is not up to the judges and/or callers to decide whether a country can have 2, 3 or even 4 respresentatives.

I didn't say that this is the fault of the judges. It's what you are saying, or what you're misinterpreting, or purposely exaggerating? Of course, the judges don't directly decide country representation. But obviously, the scoring decisions judges make factor into outcomes that then factor into the number logistics, which ultimately decide the number of country representatives. The competitive structure of the sport is faulty. Everyone tends to accept and even get used to all of the sport's faults and just carry on, and try to find some joy in the skating. I just don't blindly accept everything that's wrong without speaking out. There's no real energy apparently for trying to improve the sport, and that's sad.

I'm not so sure about couples getting better scores because they represent an obscure country.

No, I'm specifically talking about Liu/O'Shea who happen to be a high quality team. If they skated the way they actually can and are fully capable of, and were representing a country with no pairs depth, the judges might withhold a little bit, but in the end, L/O wouldn't be politically behind several other talented U.S. pairs teams as they currently are. It's a fact of life for U.S. pairs (also for Russian pairs and for Canadian pairs -- but Canadian pairs are regrouping at the moment, so no big problem for them at the moment -- and the top Russians who do make it to Worlds will always be viewed with more respect than U.S. skaters).

In any case, this situation is one that particularly hampers the development of U.S. teams. Am I speaking in a foreign language, or people don't want to hear what I'm saying?

For example, we see Miura/Kiara excel and be swiftly rewarded -- granted M/K skate for a powerful fed, but one that has no solid pairs discipline.

For sure, a small country has no political clout. A good example is Spain -- no real heavy political clout. Fans love Spanish skaters though, and root for them improving and growing their disciplines. Now, they have an exciting pairs team in Barquero/Zandron. Barquero was decent with a couple of other partners over a few years, but not this good. The bonus is: she's skating with an Italian skater and training in Italy. As we know, Italy is a country with huge political clout (via Cinquanta's influence when he was head of the ISU for so long). That's a good factor in B/Z's favor. But more importantly, they look fantastic together. Not better than any of the top U.S. teams, but B/Z representing Spain will definitely have the chance to compete at majors consistently, and slowly but surely fully develop, which is great for them.

But an imbalance exists in the competitive structure, which just makes it even harder for U.S. teams having to battle and to battle for opportunities few and far between unless they are top favorites who are able to hit their marks well when they do get opportunities. Understand? Another imbalance is the way U.S. pairs have consistently been looked down on for far too long, for a variety of reasons (which I've mentioned previously). It is what it is.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Please don't mention the new Spanish Pair in this discourse.

What? What is it that you're not understanding? I'm not trying to pick anybody apart. You are mistaking my tone and intention. I'm only mentioning a couple of other teams (including the Spanish team) as examples of what I'm specifically talking about in relation to U.S. teams, and what needs to happen for U.S. teams to get a leg up somehow. I'm not denigrating B/Z nor M/K. They are both wonderful teams. More power to them, albeit with fair judging hopefully. Fingers-crossed.

My main point, which is not tearing down any team from other countries: As things stand with the competitive structure and with the often too political judging, it's really tough for U.S. teams to gain a foothold, and even tougher to gain respect. First of all, the U.S. has had some very good teams for a long time, but the top teams ran into a buzz saw of illness and injury (circa 2015 - 2017), which hampered momentum and obviously their overall development and achievements. It's great that from two of those top teams so affected, we now have an exciting new highly athletic team in Alexa/Brandon. I wish them so much success and happiness. They truly deserve it after all they've been through in their careers with former partners whom they achieved a lot with, and could have achieved more with better luck.

P.S.
Another U.S. team whose momentum has been harshly impacted by bad luck, is Calalang/Johnson. The pandemic took away their first Worlds opportunity. Then, this year, the unfair drug mishap occurred and C/J got clobbered again with not being able to compete at Worlds. That's incredibly unfortunate for them, with all the talent they have. It's not even a given that they'll make it to Worlds now in 2022.

That's why I say, it's quite clear that the U.S. deserves to have 3 teams at Worlds and Olympics. At one point awhile back, the U.S. had 3 teams in the top 15 in ISU World standings. The possibility for obtaining 3 spots for U.S. Pairs, was so close at 2021 Worlds after the sp. But I think in part, that possibility ended up placing more pressure on K/F and C-G/LD. I hope that they are better prepared to soldier forward should the possibility arise again soon.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

the new Spanish Pair ... actually are very good, quite apart from the country they're from. Not better than the Americans, but just good and inspiring in their own thing. The same applies to the Japanese Pair. What a joy for us pairs lovers to finally see a genuinely good Japanese pair.

Of course B/Z are wonderful, and I've mentioned it repeatedly. I enjoy watching them, and I anticipate some exciting skating ahead. It's in their favor that they can benefit from Italian fed political clout, because they deserve to succeed. It's lovely to see M/K continue to excel, and it's exciting that their success will help Japan likely procure a team medal at the Olympics. I will root for that outcome. However, I don't appreciate M/K having an unfair scoring advantage over American teams on American home turf at Skate America. My respect and admiration for M/K is not gonna prevent me from telling the truths that I see regarding the scoring at SA or any other competition.

I enjoy many pairs teams, but I'm going to root for U.S. pairs teams when push comes to shove in the heat of competition, especially on home turf. Canadian fans sure do heavily support their own skaters in competitive battles. So do Russian fans. There are some U.S. fans though who tend to support skaters from other countries, sometimes more than U.S. skaters, which is anyone's right. No one has to follow any particular direction in terms of fan support, which they aren't interested in following.

I really don't think all the scoring is intended to low ball American pairs in particular.

Another over-generalization, which misinterprets my critiques. I make my observations in terms of specifics, which I have spelled out in the Skate America pairs threads, as well as in some of my prior posts in this thread. So, there's no need to rehash.

I will say it's fairly obvious that M/K and B/K were particularly favored in the scoring at SA in the sp. K/F got the short-end of the stick. I actually thought K/F might be even more harshly judged for the fallout mistake in the sp. Actually, K/F should have received better GOE and PCS on their quality elements in the sp. Another complication is that C/J are truthfully neck-and-neck with K/F in terms of talent, aside from C/J's clear disadvantage on sbs triples. But the high quality and depth for two teams from the same country poses a problem in the judging, which is politically-based. We see that in ice dance with the neck-and-neck talent between Chock/Bates and Hubbell/Donahue. While it's a good thing for talented teams from the same country to push each other, the question becomes: Who's the fed's favorite? -- which is all part of the political process of judging that has always existed in this sport. It's an outdated approach. Fresh thinking needs to happen, but it probably won't anytime soon, because it's a huge challenge and the ISU lacks leadership and vision.

I'm simply not going to sugarcoat results. But that's me. I will abide by my views, perceptions, and ideals. Everyone else has the right to see things the way they see it as well. Enjoy the rest of the season.

 

[moonvine]

I would have said that at first, but I don't think that with Alexa and Brandon's LP. Maybe it's the cover? I really don't think of the Shibs when I watch it. I enjoyed it much more than I thought I would. ETA: I generally enjoy Alexa and Brandon. Just I also sometimes have a difficult time separating out iconic music from the skaters.

However, I will never hear Bolero and not see purple chiffon. Unless it's Sholero.

Alexa Is my spirit animal and I adore her. But I’ve got to see when I see them I don’t see a pair. I see “Alexa and whatever random guy is throwing her and lifting her.”

 

[skylark]

I am not biased in favour or against American pairs (in fact Ashley and Timothy are one of my favourite couples because they are so creative, their lines are superb and their connection is top notch), and I definitely am not one of those people who think the jumps are all (in pairs I think the connection and synchronisation are so much more important) but I really don't think all the scoring is intended to low ball American pairs in particular.

Oh, and by the way, I really enjoy this relatively new team of Liu and O'shea. I can't help it, their joy makes me feel joy too.

That's such an important part of skating. I re-watched last week=end's pairs FS tonight, and watching Liu and O'Shea gives me that joy every time. That's a big part of why I love Miura/Kihara, too.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I'm not saying that there's anything specifically orchestrated against U.S. pairs (they just don't have the rep status that they deserve to have these days). It's just that U.S. fed didn't pay a lot of attention to developing U.S. pairs teams, and the U.S. pairs discipline happened to take a dive from podium contention post 2002, when Canada was still enjoying some good pairs teams (and a turnaround from their 1960s - 1970s pairs podium drought). Plus Canada has more political savvy than the U.S. Also, U.S. fed has had an ineffective Mom/Pop approach since forever. They have expected skaters to just rise on the basis of talent, without thinking through development strategies overall. Plus, U.S. fed tend to have a favoritism system that causes problems for athlete development half the time.

For example, they truly wanted to reward Denney/Frazier at 2017 Nationals, when they came back from Haven's knee injury. D/F were okay, but not really at their best. I think at that time, the Knierims were recovering from Alexa's illness, but they did get sent to Worlds with a bye, if I'm not mistaken. And D/F went too after winning the pairs National championship, but it wasn't a great Nationals for them. Overall, for a number of teams, the sp was great, but in the fp, a number of teams made a lot of mistakes. So D/F won with mistakes. It might have been better to send C-G/LD to Worlds -- they were a recently paired team at the time, and they'd won the sp with a clean skate.

C-G/LD could have debuted at 2017 Worlds as the second place U.S. team without a lot of pressure, and probably achieved better results perhaps than D/F were able to, because Haven was still recovering. Haven & Brandon did not have a good showing in the Worlds sp due to anxiety or nervous energy after being off with Haven's rehab for a year, and her knee was not at full strength. They didn't make the fp at Worlds, and they were dumped on by a lot of fans due to the U.S. losing two spots for pairs at Worlds. I supported them strongly, because I understood what they were going through, and what they'd been though. U.S. fed continued to support them too, fortunately, but they had to regroup and rebuild even more, with their confidence and their reputation having taken huge hits. They should have been given a bit more time to build strength and confidence.

But these are hard situations for federations to judge. I'm not saying it's easy. It's just that how it is handled, is so lacking and inadequate, and often ends up being wrong in nature for the forward development of athletes.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

That's such an important part of skating. I re-watched last week=end's pairs FS tonight, and watching Liu and O'Shea gives me that joy every time. That's a big part of why I love Miura/Kihara, too.

It's wonderful to be able to appreciate the joy and the great moments that are all about the talent of the athletes and the moments they make on the ice. If you can focus on that and blot out the political scoring, and the overdone rules that prevent the skaters from truly being able to weave stories on the ice in the fp, okay. I guess it's a matter of fans trying to get enjoyment wherever possible.

Last season, I became completely turned off from being able to enjoy ice dance due to the obvious political push for Sin/Kats. Of course, they've improved, but it's highly suspect that they are pushed to the top over so many other great teams.

 

[skylark]

It's wonderful to be able to appreciate the joy and the great moments that are all about the talent of the athletes and the moments they make on the ice. If you can focus on that and blot out the political scoring, and the overdone rules that prevent the skaters from truly being able to weave stories on the ice in the fp, okay. I guess it's a matter of fans trying to get enjoyment wherever possible.

That's not what I'm doing. I take the example of so many skaters who say they focus on what they can control: their skating, their performances. And they know they don't control what the judges do, so they try to let go of that.

I can't control what the judges do, whether it's political or what. What I can do is focus on the skaters and the kinds of performances that I love; and try to support my darlin' favorites, and all the athletes, by encouraging and appreciating what they do and, importantly, how they do it.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

That's not what I'm doing. I take the example of so many skaters who say they focus on what they can control: their skating, their performances. And they know they don't control what the judges do, so they try to let go of that.

I can't control what the judges do, whether it's political or what. What I can do is focus on the skaters and the kinds of performances that I love; and try to support my darlin' favorites, and all the athletes, by encouraging and appreciating what they do and, importantly, how they do it.

That's wonderful @skylark. It has been my hope to be able to ignore the judging, but I have a hard time doing that.

For the skaters, quite clearly they learn from an early age to buck-up and grin and bear it. Of course, they know they don't have any agency whatsoever, except over themselves, their own training and their own performances. They are so young and innocent when they enter the sport, and often just live in a bubble of training and traveling and performing. That's why so many have a hard time when their careers are coming to an end. I think there's a lot more awareness these days, and the global culture maybe breaks into their bubble a little. But there's a bit of naivete among skaters, which isn't surprising. They have to be focused on what they can learn from the scoring even though it often isn't fair (granted, some judges try to be fair).

For anyone to feel like there isn't political bias, there absolutely is. I just want to see more fairness and less politics when there is increasingly such depth in pairs. I guess I will sadly continue to be disappointed. I think M/K were over-scored in the sp. They skated well, but they brought back their same programs in order to maintain consistency. Not a bad strategy, and they enjoy their programs. Still, they had a couple of minor miscues in the sp which were given high GOE, and I can't go along with that. Some of their fans were even complaining M/K should have been scored higher in the sp, which is completely unreasonable. The score was generous enough. C/J should have scored closer to M/K in the sp, or M/K should have been more 69 to 70, not 72. Both K/F and L/O were not given their due GOE and PCS marks in the sp either.

Overall, I think that the final placements outcome was the one desired by TPTB, though it was unexpected by the judges for B/K to falter as much as they did in the fp. B/K shouldn't have been so highly rated in the sp with a mistake -- B/K shouldn't have made the podium.

Of course, skaters can often control their own destiny, by skating their best without mistakes, and tripping up the political scoring to a degree. But the judges have a lot of control over manipulating PCS. B/K are still considered 75+ worthy regardless of errors, and it's obvious that M/K are being pushed up in the marks (from 64.37 at 2021 Worlds to suddenly low 70s range -- no in-between passage) regardless of small errors. I can see that most fans are very happy and don't care because they like M/K. If the scoring had been fair, M/K would not have had such a high scoring advantage in the sp. M/K deserved to be in third after the sp, but not with that high a score over U.S. teams.

I don't see a problem btw, with trying to enjoy the wonderful aspects of each discipline, so that's not a criticism. I enjoy what I can too, but so many things are disappointing these days.

 

[Weathergal]

Scoring biases are the fault of individual judges. I'm not going to allow the judges not being at fault for the ISU's system, to become an excuse to absolve them for their judging decisions, which are too often based on conflicts of interest, country politics, subjective biases, and status quo judging traditions (which are endemic in figure skating), etc.

If this easygoing, 'not their fault' attitude makes what the skaters and discerning fans have to swallow re some of the results at every competition, palatable for some observers, fine. To each their own. I'm a Sagittarius, and I don't flinch from telling it like I see it, for better, for worse.

I can relax a little bit and see the positives too. But I don't see any point in swallowing excuses whole, when the overall goal of my inquiry and of my unflinching commentary is to hope that telling truths might somehow help influence making the judging better and the sport better for the athletes and for the fans.

I realize you're passionate about this, but saying the same thing over and over again to a message board filled with diehard skating fans isn't going to effect change. Have you contacted US Figure Skating or the ISU with your concerns?

Brandon probably just had nerves, like he and Alexa both had at 2021 Worlds. They're making good adjustments, and hopefully everything will pay off for them. They're right there, and they have to try and push forward with making the nerves work for them rather than against them, because no judges seem to give U.S. pairs much respect or advantage.

K/F are an exciting U.S. team, but for some reason, it seemed to be set up for other teams to be placed farther ahead in the sp, even with egregious errors. Some people say it is K/F's fault for Brandon's slight fall-out in the sp. It was just excitement and nerves. The judges know how good K/F are, and should at the least give them better GOE and PCS marks when they have a slight mistake. But that hasn't happened yet. Meanwhile, the Russian teams seem to always be spotted 5 or more points in the sp, even with errors. Also, Miura/Kihara apparently are everyone's favorite pairs team. The judges ignored a couple of small miscues by M/K in the sp. Had K/F had the kind of fall M/K had in the fp, oops, they would have been dropped precipitously.

I like Knierem / Frazier, and think they haven't even reached their potential yet, which is really exciting. But their SP was flawed. The judges don't care if it's "excitement and nerves." It doesn't matter if the judges know how good they are. They're supposed to score what's actually delivered on that day. This is something skating fans have been begging for. So are you saying that they should not ding them as much when they make a mistake because they're better than that? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

SI didn't say that this is the fault of the judges. It's what you are saying, or what you're misinterpreting, or purposely exaggerating? Of course, the judges don't directly decide country representation. But obviously, the scoring decisions judges make factor into outcomes that then factor into the number logistics, which ultimately decide the number of country representatives. The competitive structure of the sport is faulty. Everyone tends to accept and even get used to all of the sport's faults and just carry on, and try to find some joy in the skating. I just don't blindly accept everything that's wrong without speaking out. There's no real energy apparently for trying to improve the sport, and that's sad.

You are, as the expression goes, "preaching to the choir." Just because other posters do find the joy in skating doesn't mean that they don't see its problems.

In any case, this situation is one that particularly hampers the development of U.S. teams. Am I speaking in a foreign language, or people don't want to hear what I'm saying?

GS has posters from all over the world, which is one of the many great things about this board. And many posters are very articulate when posting in a language that isn't their own (I only wish I were so fluent in another language) so....that might not be the most sensitive way to say this.