Raise The Senior Ladies Age To 17 Please!

[brakes]

If Norway's proposition of raising age limit to 17 is accepted, we won't see Sofya Akatieva on senior stage till 2025/26(!).
It's beyond absurd and plain cruel towards such immense talent. Why are we doing this to our beloved sport?

 

[Draculus]

In practice the technical scoring is just as subjective as the artistic, with words like fast, difficult, original, high, and far all open to interpretation,as is whether an edge is unclear or wrong, or if a jump is UR, Q, or ok. Also, when I refer to artistic/presentation, Im not referring to whether you like their style. Im referring to their overall body coordination and smooth control of movements, along with good rhythm and feel for the music, whether its the balletic style, as many Russians have(which I also like very much), or the athletic more modern dance style that Higuchi excels at.

Well the obvious difference is that most tech scoring can be objectified in numbers (meters per second, angle degree, meters, etc. or even in relative numbers). Actually we already can have computer that gives all those scores. Even originality/difficulty can be objectified to quite high level. We just do not have it right now on this level, but there is no fundamental issues.

Presentation is so deeply cultural/linked to how our mind works so till we objectify our mind it will be purely subjective (not possible to objectify)

 

[lariko]

I think that the objection is not so much that jumps are included in the scoring protocols, but rather that they have come to dominate the scoriung to the detriment of other aspects of the sport. A balanced program -- that should be the goal. Whether that would make any difference on the age question I don't know.

From what I see quality of jumping passes, spins and step sequences don’t really depend on age, some skaters get them, some don’t.

If anything, Valieva presents about the most balanced program imaginable at 15. She jumps like Trusova and spins like Lipnitskaya. She has signature moves and costuming. And her most artistically amazing program imo was at 13, with her Girl on the Ball.

 

[lariko]

And the crystal ball told us that she will retire in 2023, plus it is inexplicably a bad thing, because see how Zagitova suffers basking in glory and popularity.

And how Hanyu leads his best life after his long glorious career with his totally uninjured body, obsessively pursuing 4A behind the scenes and barely competing.

Personally, I would have much rather seen Uno’s or Hiwatashi’s careers not curtailed because of Hanyu and Brown’s artificial longevity. And not see Kolyada’s being brought back from retirement and propped at the expense of the younger skaters.

 

[Joekaz]

Well the obvious difference is that most tech scoring can be objectified in numbers (meters per second, angle degree, meters, etc. or even in relative numbers). Actually we already can have computer that gives all those scores. Even originality/difficulty can be objectified to quite high level. We just do not have it right now on this level, but there is no fundamental issues.

Presentation is so deeply cultural/linked to how our mind works so till we objectify our mind it will be purely subjective (not possible to objectify)

In the future you may be correct. But in the present all those numbers that make up the tech scores are made up by subjective, if not outright biased people. So both marks are equally subjective in the present time.

 

[Lzbee]

I think raising the age limit doesn't solve the fundamental issue that is causing youngsters to dominate then struggle.

I'd like to see more emphasis on jump height than rotation. I've noticed that women's skaters tend to jump higher was they get older because it's harder to get the rotations in. But this means that it's something that is improved with age and not deteriorated. I only have anecdotal evidence but people that I've shown figure skating to generally don't care about rotations. It's too fast for them to count and one friend was particularly unimpressed at the commentary because they felt that the jumps weren't that big.

Other ways that ISU could encourage alternatives to only winning by rotations is by allowing more jump types and innovation in body position when jumping. Not just arm variations like tanos and rippons but leg variations like open axels and that martial arts kick move that Adam Siao Him Fa does. The variations are only worth it if they're valued more than adding a rotation though.

 

[lariko]

They do it with placing value on transitions in and out of jump. Kicking leg out is what stops a rotation. It’s probably less than wise to strain muscle memory with something that would cause them to pop, given that the number of skaters who reliably do not pop or fall is minuscule.

I didn’t know that, but apparently, those large exciting jumps are less controlled, so they are more likely to fall from them. Number of rotation and not falling show better degree of control, as well as being able to do transition in and out.

I can’t count rotations either, but quads and triple axels look more beautiful/impressive than triples normally, let alone doubles, simply because in general they have to go higher or rotate faster. Loops look the prettiest to me after axels. Combinations look prettier than sequences.

I like the look of spins. But the spins in terms of injuries are also high trauma generators.

Transitions and choreo do increase the appeal of the program. So does speed, but only to a point. Energy channeled outward—that usually does it for me, and most of my favourites are big energy givers, while tons of people like the mellow dirges programs or the mega energy-focusers.

What I find the least distinctive in the basket of elements, and pretty much impossible to tell apart are step sequences of different levels, so I wish they at least put in the protocols the damn steps, direction changes and seconds on one foot or whatever it is that gets levels.

In the end of the day, jumps are the most visually stunning element, and I’ve seen nothing better than those of Chen’s programs when he doesn’t miss a single one. It’s just frigging awesome.

 

[anonymoose_au]

The solution is simple. The ability to rotate airborne is NOT and never will be a skating skill. It is a GYMNASTIC skill.

over phenomenal spins

How exactly is spinning in the air a gymnastic skill and spinning on the ice not?

Your entire argument fails in the first sentence.

And your description of Russian girls is just nasty.

 

[Draculus]

In the future you may be correct. But in the present all those numbers that make up the tech scores are made up by subjective, if not outright biased people. So both marks are equally subjective in the present time.

In order to have objective opinion about different level of subjectivenss you have to measure it, how would you do it? Without you cannot say 'equally'.

 

[vorravorra]

And the crystal ball told us that she will retire in 2023, plus it is inexplicably a bad thing, because see how Zagitova suffers basking in glory and popularity.

And how Hanyu leads his best life after his long glorious career with his totally uninjured body, obsessively pursuing 4A behind the scenes and barely competing.

Personally, I would have much rather seen Uno’s or Hiwatashi’s careers not curtailed because of Hanyu and Brown’s artificial longevity. And not see Kolyada’s being brought back from retirement and propped at the expense of the younger skaters.

Uno's career has been in trouble because of his issues and not because of Hanyu. He's always been scored very generously. And since Hanyu is barely competing these days, how is he interfering with Uno and preventing him from skating his best? There is no Hanyu in China, who's blocking Boyang from delivering? At least in women nobody goes as far as to say the American women underperform because of the Russians. Also, Kolyada never retired or expressed any intention of doing so. He has surgery in October and came back on the ice in March.

 

[Artemisa]

Try removing everyone under 21 from the current world standing lists as long as everyone 5’6” and under in height. Why should tiny boys show up, jump quads with their arms over head and steal medals from Brezina? How could you apply the same athletic requirements to Ignatov and Kagiyama when there is a foot of height difference?

I couldn't agree more .. if people talk about age .. they should talk about weight and height ... because let's be honest .. people defend increasing age not because of age itself but because there are changes in the body between a child and a teenager / woman ... and at this point it doesn't make much sense. .ana sherbakova will turn 18, so will trusova.. they have 4 ... and juniors who become seniors will find athletes that already have 4 .. and won't be so easy the conquer of the throne

 

[Joekaz]

In order to have objective opinion about different level of subjectivenss you have to measure it, how would you do it? Without you cannot say 'equally'.

Whether you can measure the subjectiveness level does not matter in practical terms. The fact that both marks are almost fully dependent on opinion means neither is more accurate than the other in any meaningful way.

 

[lariko]

Uno's career has been in trouble because of his issues and not because of Hanyu. He's always been scored very generously. And since Hanyu is barely competing these days, how is he interfering with Uno and preventing him from skating his best? There is no Hanyu in China, who's blocking Boyang from delivering? At least in women nobody goes as far as to say the American women underperform because of the Russians. Also, Kolyada never retired or expressed any intention of doing so. He has surgery in October and came back on the ice in March.

I didn’t mention Boyang. He is, indeed, not impacted by anyone else and had access to every competition. Should he have continued until now, or should he had been in the last world’s free over younger Zhou, is a different question.

Uno, on the other hand, would have been on the world podium if Hanyu didn’t have such a protracted career and didn’t cast a long shadow.

I much prefer how it is in women’s field.

 

[el henry]

.

Personally, I would have much rather seen Uno’s or Hiwatashi’s careers not curtailed because of Hanyu and Brown’s artificial longevity. And not see Kolyada’s being brought back from retirement and propped at the expense of the younger skaters.

Tomoki, having trained with Jason and being a teammate of Jason, would never ever ever say his career was curtailed by Jason. Or that Jason's career is "artificial" longevity. I commend Polina Edmund's podcast interview with Tomoki, it was very interesting. And one day I will see a Russian split-off between Tomoki and Jason, and my life will be complete.

Personally, I find a revolving door of skaters, a new crop every year, to be boring beyond measure . ETA: And I know others do not. That is what happens with a subjective term like boring, or dull, or exciting. We all have different opinions

But my concerns about minimum ages, for any and all disciplines, don't have anything with my personal opinions on what is boring.

 

[lariko]

I Aha wait an inkling that Hiwatashi would have loved to compete in all those events Brown got instead and had already had attended in his career. And that he wouldn’t love to be a case of someone who never made it in seniors, because someone else needed a long illustrious career.

So long as the argument is that only legal adults should compete in seniors because persecution of abuse will be easier, that I can respect and that have grounding in reality. Though only a few short weeks ago I watched Kevin Aymoz, aged 24, put on ice against his wishes injured.

But that argument cannot be disengaged from consideration about revising other age limits and consequences to the aging senior bracket. It just can’t be presented as panacea against abuse and as an improvement.

But body shape, longevity and artistry—no, because it disrespects individuality, belittles achievement and implies that there is only One True Way all athletes should be.

 

[Draculus]

Whether you can measure the subjectiveness level does not matter in practical terms. The fact that both marks are almost fully dependent on opinion means neither is more accurate than the other in any meaningful way.

'Accuracy' for subjective opinions has no meaning.

Well, even in the case where there is no video, not possible to review it and judges use only their eyes, question of fully rotated jump is binary. Either jump is fully rotated or not, so judge can be right or wrong. In this case we can talk how accurate judges are, how objective they are, we can blame them (if we think they are wrong), etc. And we can give judges more tools to increase their accuracy (slowmo which is used, multiply camera angles which are not right now). Question of accuracy here at least has a meaning.

If you talk about 'interpretation' - question of judge accuracy has no meaning at all. Question 'which skater interpreted better' cannot have only 1 correct answer (az least in the current definition of interpretation). Judges can have different opinion and all of them are valid, 'blaming' here is meaningless, because there is no single valid answer, but multiple. So accuracy here cannot applied. In case of the jump rotation if 2 judges have different opinion - 1 of them is wrong, accuracy can be applied.

So your comparison of 1 term that has a meaning with another term that has no meaning has no meaning too.

 

[Mathman]

How exactly is spinning in the air a gymnastic skill and spinning on the ice not?

Well, air is air and ice is ice. I don't think it is foolish to regard spinning on a sheet oif ice as more "skate-y" than leaping into the air.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Well, air is air and ice is ice. I don't think it is foolish to regard spinning on a sheet oif ice as more "skate-y" than leaping into the air.

they do not fly after jumping through the air, they must successfully and correctly land on the ice - and this is the most extreme test of skating skills. In addition, a beautiful and flawlessly executed jump becomes the highlight of the program, which has a positive effect on the artistry of the performance.

 

[Joe Mendoza]

sorry if this was already clarified in previous posts, but just curious about the following:

• Is age the only criteria for what separates someone to be in Juniors vs. Seniors? If yes,
  • What is the minimum age to be in Senior Ladies? Is it the same as the minimum age to be in Senior Men?
  • What is the maximum age to be in Junior Ladies? Is it the same as the maximum age to be in Junior Men?
• If not, what other criteria items are there? And for the other criteria items, are there minimums / maximums (e.g., TES, PCS) defined for Juniors vs. Seniors? Are they the same for Ladies and Men?

 

[vorravorra]

I didn’t mention Boyang. He is, indeed, not impacted by anyone else and had access to every competition. Should he have continued until now, or should he had been in the last world’s free over younger Zhou, is a different question.

Uno, on the other hand, would have been on the world podium if Hanyu didn’t have such a protracted career and didn’t cast a long shadow.

I much prefer how it is in women’s field.

I assume you mean on top of the podium? Shoma has stood on the world podium plenty of times. I find the idea that another skater prevents someone from skating to their full potential rather odd. And if they can't reach their potential or if their potential is not high enough, what is there to complain about? Nobody is owed success, it's something you have to grab by being better than what's on offer. I do not see what advantage Uno with the jumps that have spawned the term "shomaquad" could offer over Hanyu.