2022 Olympics: Men's Short Program

[Cilla70]

Not saying he's lying. But it does sound like he's making an excuse. As pointed out, when other skaters have done it, they've been criticised for it too. Excuses are bad because it trivializes the good things that others do as circumstantial/lucky (or unlucky in his case), and isn't taking ownership of one's own mistakes.

 

[Erin9]

Probably some truth to that, too.

In my case, it's the poor coverage. I missed seeing several skaters I enjoy because NBC cut them out to do a Zoom interview with a skiier's mom and then to do a Nathan puff piece. That's inexcusable.

I wasn't able to get my fake Canadian credentials sorted out to watch on CBC, so that's a priority before the long.

I can agree on the Nathan puff piece.

But the interview with the skiers mom was nice. He unexpectedly won silver following a neck injury last year, which he’d had difficulty returning to form after. And his mom won skiing gold 50 years ago. I thought it was cool and worthwhile. But- I love watching skiing anyway.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

It's because Yuma was really exquisite, he sold Michael Buble's program beautifully, he is the complete package, jumps, spins, elegance, charisma, he has it all. He's 5 points out of first place and has to go to gold (of course, if Nathan isn't overrated like he usually is)

Nah. Yuma has fantastic skating skills and speed across the ice but the program felt juniorish (and not necessarily because of the music). While he certainly fulfilled all the technical requirements quite beautifully, his overall performance was pedestrian and lacked the utter elegance and pure connection/musicality of quite a few of the other guys, including Chen.

 

[museksk8r]

Totally agree. I almost wish the American media narrative would change from "this is redemption for 2018" to "this is a coronation ceremony for the most dominant skater the last 4 years." Sure, NBC has been alluding to his dominance, but a vast majority of the commentary and media soundbits is that Nathan is here it redeem himself for 2018 even though it felt like Nathan was playing with house money in 2018 (IMO). Nathan was one of the outside faves for gold in 2018 (not THE fave for gold), but I remember feeling that anything gained in 2018 was just bonus, and that Nathan's real moment was always meant to be in 2022.

Right! The emphasis is always on his struggles in the 2 short programs from the 2018 Olympics instead of focusing on the immense positive from that event, which was he won the FP by a substantial margin of 9 points over Hanyu and became the first man in Olympic history to attempt 6 quad jumps in one program, landing 5 cleanly.

 

[TwinnerA]

I can agree on the Nathan puff piece.

But the interview with the skiers mom was nice. He unexpectedly won silver following a neck injury last year, which he’d had difficulty returning to form after. And his mom won skiing gold 60 years ago. I thought it was cool and worthwhile. But- I love watching skiing anyway.

I read his mother is 71, so actually she won gold 50 years ago. I was thinking wow, she won a gold medal at 11 years of age! LOL

 

[Cilla70]

Well said. If Nathan had complained about the ice, there would be an uproar. Nathan has continuously been hounded with questions and comments about his 2018 Olympic performance, but he has always taken full blame. Hanyu is an excellent skater but I think he needs attention and validation from his fans. Nathan is a humble, well rounded young man in and outside of skating, trying to perform at the highest level with minimum drama.

 

[Erin9]

Nah. Yuma has fantastic skating skills and speed across the ice but the program felt juniorish (and not necessarily because of the music). While he certainly fulfilled all the technical requirements quite beautifully, his overall performance was pedestrian and lacked the utter elegance and pure connection/musicality of quite a few of the other guys, including Chen.

That sounds similar to Johnny Weir’s comments. Yuma is very good, but not there yet.

I thoroughly enjoy watching him, but I do agree with that assessment.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think I'm a bit mystified as to why so many people are adamant on calling this one thing or another. Like, it's perfectly possible that the pop happened BOTH because he was unlucky with the ice AND because he was underprepared. It's also perfectly possible for feelings in the moment to dominate your immediate reaction to something (when I go to the rink to practice my jumps and don't make them, I often /feel/ like it's because I got bad takeoffs, even though I also know my technique / fitness prob play a factor). It's natural for Yuzuru to say that he felt baffled by the fall if he genuinely feels like he's in good shape (and from his practices, that doesn't sound like a cover up either). I think people are all reading too much into this and moralizing too heavily when it was just "something that happened." Yuzuru knows he's made a mistake. He told us honestly about how he personally felt about it in the moment. He's the only one who can now try to adjust himself to make sure he gives the performance he wants in the free skate. That's all, really.

The way he framed it as maybe due to "some other skater" didn't really sit well with me.

Not to mention, there had just been a resurfacing, and other skaters subsequently had no major issues. And practicing his salchow leading to his starting position. There could have been no hole and he might have still popped the jump (as he has done in the past).

"When I took off, I (stepped) in some hole — maybe, some other skater was doing a toe loop, or a flip, I don't know. But I was on a hole, so I couldn't take off for the first jump," Hanyu said.

 

[Erin9]

I read his mother is 71, so actually she won gold 50 years ago. I was thinking wow, she won a gold medal at 11 years of age! LOL

Lol yeah- it was a typo! I fixed it. Typing on my phone and this page sometimes refreshing mid sentence on me led me to just hitting reply without checking.

 

[Ducky]

I can agree on the Nathan puff piece.

But the interview with the skiers mom was nice. He unexpectedly won silver following a neck injury last year, which he’d had difficulty returning to form after. And his mom won skiing gold 50 years ago. I thought it was cool and worthwhile. But- I love watching skiing anyway.

But people don’t remember Nathan Chen as The Comeback Quad King, and the ‘Nathan Chen’s Redemption’ story is a better story arc as it places him as an underdog. NBC’s Primetime Olympic coverage isn’t for people who’ve been following any particular sport but for the casual viewer who only tunes in for the Olympics. As much as we complain about the formula it obviously works and keeps people from channel surfing enough to keep the sponsors happy.

And this is why I watch the stream on Peacock.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well said. If Nathan had complained about the ice, there would be an uproar.

1000%.

 

[Erin9]

But people don’t remember Nathan Chen as The Comeback Quad King, and the ‘Nathan Chen’s Redemption’ story is a better story arc as it places him as an underdog. NBC’s Primetime Olympic coverage isn’t for people who’ve been following any particular sport but for the casual viewer who only tunes in for the Olympics. As much as we complain about the formula it obviously works and keeps people from channel surfing enough to keep the sponsors happy.

And this is why I watch the stream on Peacock.

Good point.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think Yuzuru explained perfectly he made a mistake. Just like Patrick explained why he didn't feel comfortable in Boston. That's all fine with me. To me the issue is how some people interpret the comments. Patrick got bashed endlessly. Yuzuru gets a lot of sympathy, which is fine BUT also it goes as far as " he should have been allowed to redo his jump" erm.. NO.

What?! People are actually suggesting he should have been allowed to redo?

Was Chen allowed to redo his 4Z after falling in his Worlds SP? Should Karen be allowed to redo her 3L from the team SP?

 

[TwinnerA]

But people don’t remember Nathan Chen as The Comeback Quad King, and the ‘Nathan Chen’s Redemption’ story is a better story arc as it places him as an underdog. NBC’s Primetime Olympic coverage isn’t for people who’ve been following any particular sport but for the casual viewer who only tunes in for the Olympics. As much as we complain about the formula it obviously works and keeps people from channel surfing enough to keep the sponsors happy.

And this is why I watch the stream on Peacock.

I had two iPads going, one playing the NBC telecast with the sound turned down and the scoring box I prefer and the 2nd iPad turned to Peacock just for the announcer, program music and no commentary!

 

[Cilla70]

Some of these twitter comments (and on other platforms) are crazy… are people confused that ice is bad when you skate in the last warm up group? I remember when I skated junior level I skated on some terrible ice. It happens and it’s part of the sport.

I always think about the last few skaters on the ice before resurfacing. That ice must be torn up. I heard an interview where a skater said during his warmup right before he skates a few turns over the ice to check for bad spots.
Overall the short program performances were less messier than usual, with many memorable moments. I have to say the Star Wars program from the French skater was tops for me even though he fell.

 

[Leocadia]

What?! People are actually suggesting he should have been allowed to redo?

Was Chen allowed to redo his 4Z after falling in his Worlds SP? Should Karen be allowed to redo her 3L from the team SP?

I’ve seen some people on social media suggesting that but they’re all very obviously people who have only watched figure skating at the Olympics if ever, and have no idea how it works. No one else is seriously suggesting that, thankfully.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm almost afraid to ask this for fear of the blowback. Would Hanyu have had a better grasp on ice conditions if he had arrived earlier and spent more time on the venue ice?

Here's a run-through he did where he does a fantastic 4S.

https://twitter.com/yzkyun_4A_mami/status/1490841113774608384

 

[Jumping_Bean]

So if a skater popped all 7 jumping passes in one program, and then the did the same program again with everything else exactly the same but nailed all 7 jumping passes, then the PCS should be exactly the same between both programs? Because PCS ≠ TES?

ISU documents say a serious error affects the integrity of a program, which a pop clearly would count as adversely affecting.

Once again, integrity of the composition, not program. Do you think that the ISU does not choose the wording in the rules very carefully?
Composition is specifically defined by the ISU, it is not some sort of undefined entity. You cannot simply substitute it by performance (another part of PCS) or program, as they do not mean the same thing within the strict confines of the ISU. You can say that in your opinion he should receive lower PCS because his interpretation/performance/... was not as good as usual - that's fine, that is your opinion. What you cannot say is that his PCS should have been capped, because while you categorically consider pops as serious errors, the only thing the ISU will always consider a serious error is a fall. In every other case, it is up to the judges to decide if the technical error impacted the composition - To me, it didn't (and I say that as a person that is actually not that interested in Yuzuru Hanyu as a skater, but I'm interested in rules and to me, the case is not as clear cut as some of you are making it seem) and 3 judges agree. (The remaining 6 scored him below the maximum scores either way, if it was because they felt his error impacted his composition or because they didn't think he was as good as normally or for whichever other reason is not for us to know) - Just as a little reminder, the maximum PCS score a skater usually scoring 10s with a fall would be 48.25 (higher than the score Yuzuru received). We haven't seen this program internationally, so we cannot compare this score to what he would receive for it clean, but in the past, clean SPs from Yuzuru have scored between 9.50 and 10.00, the average landing closer to the 9.75 mark than to the 9.50 mark. With this in mind, the maximum with a major error would be 47.00, 0.08 below the score he received (explained by three judges not deeming his mistake as disruptive to the composition).

People need to stop saying a "pop" isn't a serious error. It is. People need to stop diminishing their severity the way they say "a fall wasn't disruptive". It's a big, glaring, obvious error, especially on the first jumping pass/first impression/setting the tone of the program.

Falls, in contrast to pops, are explicitly mentioned. There is no other way to interpret the rule regarding falls and PCS cap - a fall should automatically limit the PCS maximum (I'm using "should" because some judges break even the unmistakeably clear part of this rule). I've never made any argument otherwise.

(unless you're in the camp that PCS is mutually exclusive from TES -- so 2 stumbles in a step sequence shouldn't affect PE/SS/TR/IN because they were part of a technical element)

A stumble in the step sequence is not at all comparable to a problem in a jump. Problems on jumps are rarely indicative of skating skills at the top level (or else for example Misha's skating skills must be much worse than I perceive them to be, after all, his jumps aren't very consistent), problems in step sequences often involve loss of edge control, loss of balance in difficult turns, ... that do show a struggle with skating skills ("Defined by overall cleanness and sureness, edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, turns, steps, etc.), the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed." - If you stumble during a step sequence, how high can the cleanness and sureness of your skating skills be?).
Also, as per your own definition of serious errors, wasn't for example Keegan Messing even more overscored in PCS than Yuzuru Hanyu? (Not a dig against Keegan, he did the best he could and definitely didn't score himself) As you brought up the stumbles, he did have 2 visible stumbles in the StSq (by the way, I feel quite sorry for Keegan, seems like the World is out to get him this year, from losing his luggage multiple times, his dog dying, him catching Covid and almost missing the Olympics to making small mistakes in spins and step sequences, probably due to jet lag or lack of practice time - but he seems to be very happy to be here despite that, lovely to see a skater enjoy themselves like Keegan does) which should be serious errors by your definition - and he still received the highest PCS he has received internationally since Skate America in 2019. (Average SP PCS per category when clean: ca. 8.75 (here he received a slightly higher average of 8.788), with one serious error his maximum should be around 42, with 2+ around 39).
And still, I don't see you going around criticising his scores. And I understand that it's impossible to look through every single skater's scores (and I certainly wouldn't want to), but if you want to apply the rules so strictly and broadly and even bring up stumbles in Step Sequences yourself, then it seems absurd to pick out one skater, who "only" popped one jump and scored pretty close to what he should have received at the maximum with a serious error, while overlooking PCS scores that would be much harder to explain by how you understand the rules.

 

[Florian]

So it was an incredible short program regarding the low number of mistakes and falls. The judging however was questionable unfortunately. They generally score too high, but they exaggerated it in some cases. I can understand that they wanted to help Hanyu. It's ok to some part. But 95 points. No. But worse was the overscoring for the other two Japanese. Uno was not better than in the team competition and Kagiyama's scoring was crazy. Giving out a 10 for skating skills is ridiculous in itself. But well. More PC than for Uno. No way. Chen should have a lead of at least 10 points.

Whatever caused the mistake Hanyu made, I don't know why so many doubt his ability to still medal. After a short program with enormously few errors from all skaters, why should the free skate not become the opposite. However, it is surely unlikely that neither Uno and Kagiyama nor Chen make any mistakes. Not to mention the omnipresent danger of a positive Covid test. Nothing is decided yet, those Olympics showed what can happen.

 

[mskater93]

He already has! Team Bronze!

Uh, no. He didn't complete for Japan, so no medal