Protocols! Who Was Downgraded? Who Flutzed or Lipped?

dorispulaski · Jan 27, 2008

chuckm · Jan 27, 2008

Here's what I found:
Short Program
Edge Calls
Meissner for lip, Diggs for flutz
This is incomprehensible: Wagner and Zhang both flutz noticeably, and both got dinged in the GP for flutzing, yet neither got an edge call in the SP.
Underrotation
Meissner: 3F she fell on
Zhang: 3T on combo, 3Z
Czisny: 3F
Oberstar: 3L
Hyatt: 3Z she fell on
Diggs: 3Z she fell on, 3F

Free Skate (I only did the top 10 here)
Edge Calls
Nagasu - solo 3Z. First time I ever saw an flutz call for Nagasu!
Zhang - both solo and combo 3Z
Liang - 3Z in combo only
Hacker - 3Z
Meissner - 3F she fell on
Bulanhagui - solo 3Z only

OK, no flutz for Wagner? This makes no sense.

Underrotation
Wagner - 2L on 3L/2L combo
Nagasu - 3T on 3Z combo
Czisny - 3F and 3T

tae04 · Jan 27, 2008

Yea pretty crazy Wagner got no flutz calls. I thought she should have won the Free though. Nagasu still got a very high score for a fall and the 3t being downgraded. Don't agree with all those -3s on Zhang's 3 lutz in the short program.

kikakiks · Jan 27, 2008

Noone commenting on goes?

Overmarking by us judges just went to a new level with the ladies competition. Over plus one on step sequences by nagasu? and i would have many other examples...

well, prettu much in line with what happens at japanses nationals, but I am still suprised a program with three falls gets close to hitting 100 :laugh:

They should do the same at europeans!

chuckm · Jan 27, 2008

Zhang got -3 on her lutz in the SP because it was underrotated. If Zhang's 3Z was really a 2Z, then she didn't do the required "triple out of footwork", hence the -3 deduction. The 3T on the combo was underrotated and she got a deduction for the underrotation, but not for leaving out a required element (she got credit for a 3/2, and that's OK).

feraina · Jan 27, 2008

Poor Caroline lost a lot of points in the SP because of that one stupid mistake with the under-rotation call on the 3Lz. It was not only a difference in base value, which would vaulted her over Bebe, but also about 1.5 points in GOE, which would've put her ahead of Katrina, and extremely close with Kimmie. In any case, she would have been in the last group of skaters, and her PCS wouldn't have suffered as much as it did in the LP. I totally disagree with the PCS judging of the LP. They have Mirai, Rachael, Ashley, Caroline, in that order. I would have ordered them Ashley, Caroline, Mirai, and Rachael instead -- based on their performances, not on their abilities. Caroline skated her heart out, whereas Mirai was really tight, and Rachael was slow -- and the latter two had their own take-off edge and UR problems.

I'm not disputing the final placements, but there should definitely not have been this big yawning gap between the top three and Caroline in the overall score.

Considering that Caroline had no downgrades, I'm even more disappointed by her LP score. They took a very long time putting out her scores too, so I'm sure they were reviewing her jumps for possible downgrades. Eventually they couldn't find any jump worth downgrading, but they managed to dock her levels on the spins and spirals. These were all wonderful, she carried them off so well! -- how come she didn't get all level 4's, like in the GPF? If she got the proper levels, and if Rachael & Ashley had gotten the proper 'e' deductions (and Mirai gotten the proper # of downgrades), then Caroline should have easily won the LP, as she should have. That was the performance of the night!

My overall feeling is that it's not the judging panel that was especially harsh on Caroline (I think her being in the pen-ultimate group contributed to lower PCS), but rather that the technical panel was especially harsh on Caroline throughout the competition (relative to the others).

bekalc · Jan 27, 2008

feraina said:
Poor Caroline lost a lot of points in the SP because of that one stupid mistake with the under-rotation call on the 3Lz. It was not only a difference in base value, which would vaulted her over Bebe, but also about 1.5 points in GOE, which would've put her ahead of Katrina, and extremely close with Kimmie. In any case, she would have been in the last group of skaters, and her PCS wouldn't have suffered as much as it did in the LP. I totally disagree with the PCS judging of the LP. They have Mirai, Rachael, Ashley, Caroline, in that order. I would have ordered them Ashley, Caroline, Mirai, and Rachael instead -- based on their performances, not on their abilities. Caroline skated her heart out, whereas Mirai was really tight, and Rachael was slow -- and the latter two had their own take-off edge and UR problems.

I'm not disputing the final placements, but there should definitely not have been this big yawning gap between the top three and Caroline in the overall score.

Huh? As Sandra stated the quality of Mirai's overall skating is much higher than the other girls.

netnuts · Jan 27, 2008

feraina said:
My overall feeling is that it's not the judging panel that was especially harsh on Caroline (I think her being in the pen-ultimate group contributed to lower PCS), but rather that the technical panel was especially harsh on Caroline throughout the competition (relative to the others).

As long as international judges give her good marks, the national judges will eventually catch up...

I can't believe a few other very juriosh skaters getting 7s in their PCS. At international competitions, they were only able to score 5+ despite countless triple jumps.

Wrlmy · Jan 27, 2008

Rachael was slow throughout, too slow at times, but she had grace and musicality surpassing other young ladies. She rightfully won free skate, no doubt about that. But I'm still bummed neither Rachael nor Ashley was called for wrong edge.

bekalc · Jan 27, 2008

Wrlmy said:
Rachael was slow throughout, too slow at times, but she had grace and musicality surpassing other young ladies. She rightfully won free skate, no doubt about that. But I'm still bummed neither Rachael nor Ashley was called for wrong edge.

Exactly. I"m not sure why people are saying that Rachael is more juniorish than Caroline... Rachael is the better performer, and is able to skate to more different types of music. And complaining about levels, if Rachael's spiral in the short hadn't been graded level 1, Flatt would be National champion right now.

Also, I want to point this out as well. Rachael has actually never lost to Caroline Zhang, when they have competeted head to head. Everyone in 2006/2007 season was waiting for Rachael to come out for the Junior Grand Prix. Then Rachael got injured and had to sit out. Mirai's rise at Junior Nationals (and Caroline and Ashley's 1-2 finish) meant no Junior worlds for Rachael. But Rachael had never lost to Caroline or Ashley when they went face to face. I don't get this idea that somehow Caroline's better than Rachael. Both have speed issues.

As for Rachael vs. Mirai. The results at this nationals, are the exact results the International judges have given. When Rachael and Mirai are clean (with similar content) Mirai gets a huge lead..

Tonichelle · Jan 27, 2008

Rachel wasn't slow, to me, and I was in the arena.

chuckm · Jan 27, 2008

feraina said:
I totally disagree with the PCS judging of the LP. They have Mirai, Rachael, Ashley, Caroline, in that order. I would have ordered them Ashley, Caroline, Mirai, and Rachael instead -- based on their performances, not on their abilities. Caroline skated her heart out, whereas Mirai was really tight, and Rachael was slow -- and the latter two had their own take-off edge and UR problems.

Rachael skated HER heart out, too. She is very musical and skates with the music, not to it, and she expresses her musicality not only with her entire body, but with her face. Although Rachael's 3/3 has occasionally been UR in the SP, she has gotten credit for it in her free skates very consistently in her JGP events. She's never gotten an edge deduction in international competition except at the German JGP (where the caller seemed determined to help put the German girl on the podium).

Mirai was tight at first, but then she came out of herself and skated freely for the second half of her program. Mirai has never gotten an edge deduction in international competition.

Considering that Caroline had no downgrades, I'm even more disappointed by her LP score. They took a very long time putting out her scores too, so I'm sure they were reviewing her jumps for possible downgrades. Eventually they couldn't find any jump worth downgrading, but they managed to dock her levels on the spins and spirals. These were all wonderful, she carried them off so well! -- how come she didn't get all level 4's, like in the GPF?

Caroline has often gotten lower levels on her spirals because she doesn't hold each position long enough. Look up the protocols for her GP events and you will see levels all over the place, even as low as 1 for her spiral. Same with the spin positions---if she doesn't hold EACH position for the correct number of rotations, the level goes down. She has to learn to COUNT during those elements to make sure she meets the criteria for a Level4.

If she got the proper levels, and if Rachael & Ashley had gotten the proper 'e' deductions (and Mirai gotten the proper # of downgrades), then Caroline should have easily won the LP, as she should have. That was the performance of the night!

I repeat: as Rachael neither flutzes nor lips, there is no reason for her to get an edge deduction.

Mirai didn't underrotate her jumps at Nationals. She had some UR problems during the JGP, which were likely due to her sudden growth spurt. Apparently she's been working hard on overcoming the URs, and it's paid off.

IMO, Rachael had the performance of the night. There was not a single misstep in her performance, and she got +GOE on every single element. She skated with such joy and enthusiasm!

Caroline was very, very good. But this performance did not stand out as one of her best.

My overall feeling is that it's not the judging panel that was especially harsh on Caroline (I think her being in the pen-ultimate group contributed to lower PCS), but rather that the technical panel was especially harsh on Caroline throughout the competition (relative to the others).

Caroline has been dinged by EVERY technical panel at every GP event this season. She flutzes, and her weird pick technique contributes to her tendency to underrotate the flip, lutz and the second jump of her 3/3 combos. I don't think the US tech team was any harder on her than any of the ISU tech teams have been, and in fact I think they were somewhat more lenient.

We KNOW you are an ardent Caroline fan, but you are going too far when you denigrate great performances by the top 3 skaters.

I think Caroline is a wonderful skater, and if she sets her mind to overcoming all of her technical issues, she could easily be on the top of the podium next year.
I am sure she will do that, and not focus on nitpicking the performances of her rivals.

bekalc · Jan 27, 2008

Chuck, Rachael does flutz a bit, but her flutz like Mirai's isn't nearly as obvious as Caroline/Mao/Ashley's.

Rachael is extremely talented, and I think this result is great for her future as well. She had some real bad luck last season. It's also a great result for Wagner who has been like a rock all season long.

Caroline Zhang's PCS are right in line with her PCS in international competition. I don't think the USFSA is somehow out to get Caroline Zhang. I think what happened is that it's the first time this year that Caroline has skated against Wagner and Mirai. And Caroline hasn't faced Rachael Flatt this year. The judges were able to see all of the young talented skaters side by side and well they ranked them.. And I don't think the international judges would necessarily disagree with that ranking. Mirai vs. Flatt here is basically exactly what happened at JGPF.

I think that one thing this result does. All this result says that instead of just Zhang is our next one: IT just says we have four really talented young skaters. That's all.

chuckm · Jan 27, 2008

bekalc said:
As for Rachael vs. Mirai. The results at this nationals, are the exact results the International judges have given. When Rachael and Mirai are clean (with similar content) Mirai gets a huge lead..

In the SP. Rachael beat Mirai in the FS at the JGPF and at Nationals.

Rachael needs to work on speed in her footwork, spiral and spins. I could see that she has improved her spins 100% since the beginning of the season, and her footwork was a lot faster than it had been earlier. Because of her back, there are limits to her flexibility, but she can improve her spiral level just by holding her positions longer.

Rachael is far more naturally musical than Mirai, and expresses her musicality better with body and face. That's why she comes off as more mature than Caroline and Mirai.

carolinefan177 · Jan 27, 2008

chuckm said:
Rachael skated HER heart out, too. She is very musical and skates with the music, not to it, and she expresses her musicality not only with her entire body, but with her face. Although Rachael's 3/3 has occasionally been UR in the SP, she has gotten credit for it in her free skates very consistently in her JGP events. She's never gotten an edge deduction in international competition except at the German JGP (where the caller seemed determined to help put the German girl on the podium).

Mirai was tight at first, but then she came out of herself and skated freely for the second half of her program. Mirai has never gotten an edge deduction in international competition.

Caroline has often gotten lower levels on her spirals because she doesn't hold each position long enough. Look up the protocols for her GP events and you will see levels all over the place, even as low as 1 for her spiral. Same with the spin positions---if she doesn't hold EACH position for the correct number of rotations, the level goes down. She has to learn to COUNT during those elements to make sure she meets the criteria for a Level4.

I repeat: as Rachael neither flutzes nor lips, there is no reason for her to get an edge deduction.

Mirai didn't underrotate her jumps at Nationals. She had some UR problems during the JGP, which were likely due to her sudden growth spurt. Apparently she's been working hard on overcoming the URs, and it's paid off.

IMO, Rachael had the performance of the night. There was not a single misstep in her performance, and she got +GOE on every single element. She skated with such joy and enthusiasm!

Caroline was very, very good. But this performance did not stand out as one of her best.

Caroline has been dinged by EVERY technical panel at every GP event this season. She flutzes, and her weird pick technique contributes to her tendency to underrotate the flip, lutz and the second jump of her 3/3 combos. I don't think the US tech team was any harder on her than any of the ISU tech teams have been, and in fact I think they were somewhat more lenient.

We KNOW you are an ardent Caroline fan, but you are going too far when you denigrate great performances by the top 3 skaters.

I think Caroline is a wonderful skater, and if she sets her mind to overcoming all of her technical issues, she could easily be on the top of the podium next year.
I am sure she will do that, and not focus on nitpicking the performances of her rivals.

Well, artistry is very subjective, so I wouldn't necessarily agree that Rachael is a better artist than either Caroline or Mirai. For me, artistry derives from facial expression, body language, carriage across the ice, and relation to the audience, and I just hard time understanding how Flatt was any better at those things than either Caroline, Mirai, or Ashley for that matter. Also, I think you erred regarding Rachael's nonexistant flutz. She does flutz, and it's clear in the replays, and you have remember that at JGP events many skaters don't get wrong edge calls. Mirai has never gotten one at her JGP events, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have a flutz.

Of course, Caroline has been deducted at her GP events but you have to look at the circumstances. She clearly underrottated many of her triples at SA, worked on them and got credit (and +GOE aside from wrong edge) on them at Cup of China and the GPF. The only underrotation problems have been because of her lack of stamina at the second half of the program (see Paul Wylie).

At the GPF, she landed all of her jumps aside from the last lutz which she under-rotated and fell on. There she received around 114 for her FS. The lutz is worth 5.0 points + bonus at the 1/2 way point. Caroline, in most cases, gets anywhere from -1 to -1.60 GOE on it. If we look at it in the extreme case, She would get (5-1.60) + (.10 *5) = 3.9. That would have given her a total of about 118, plus any GOE she lost for underrotating the jump. Plus, I think her PCS might have been slightly higher because falls tend to detract from the program. Considering that this is a national event, in which inflation is all too common, I would have expected her to get 120+ easily with the performance she gave last night, so I don't know how you could say that the judges were being lenient here. About the Mirai not under-rotating, I may be wrong, but the jumps that I felt were under-rotated and weren't, here, have almost always been at the international events, so it's hard to believe that they weren't again, but who knows, she must have been wroking hard on them or something and maybe they weren't UR, but after Caroline's luz got UR yesterday, I just hink it's unfair that Mirai, or anyone else, didn't suffer the same fate.

We all have our favorites, but that doesn't mean that Feriana and I wish ill-will on anyone or try to degrade the other skaters in some way. It just means that because we like Caroline, we are willing to defend her. I'm actually happy Mirai won, and I'm proud of Rachael and Ashely too.

bekalc · Jan 27, 2008

chuckm said:
In the SP. Rachael beat Mirai in the FS at the JGPF and at Nationals.

Rachael needs to work on speed in her footwork, spiral and spins. I could see that she has improved her spins 100% since the beginning of the season, and her footwork was a lot faster than it had been earlier. Because of her back, there are limits to her flexibility, but she can improve her spiral level just by holding her positions longer.

Rachael is far more naturally musical than Mirai, and expresses her musicality better with body and face. That's why she comes off as more mature than Caroline and Mirai.

Yep but as both mentioned when both are clean Mirai gets a huge lead. Mirai had a huge lead in the short program at JGPF too.

GoldMedalist · Jan 27, 2008

carolinefan177 said:
Well, artistry is very subjective, so I wouldn't necessarily agree that Rachael is a better artist than either Caroline or Mirai. For me, artistry derives from facial expression, body language, carriage across the ice, and relation to the audience, and I just hard time understanding how Flatt was any better at those things than either Caroline, Mirai, or Ashley for that matter. Also, I think you erred regarding Rachael's nonexistant flutz. She does flutz, and it's clear in the replays, and you have remember that at JGP events many skaters don't get wrong edge calls. Mirai has never gotten one at her JGP events, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have a flutz. Of course, Caroline has been deducted at her GP events but you have to look at the circumstances. She clearly underrottated many of her triples at SA, worked on them and got credit (and +GOE aside from wrong edge) on them at Cup of China and the GPF. The only underrotation problems have been because of her lack of stamina at the second half of the program (see Paul Wylie). At the GPF, she landed all of her jumps aside from the last lutz which she under-rotated and fell on. There she received around 114 for her FS. The lutz is worth 5.0 points + bonus at the 1/2 way point. Caroline, in most cases, gets anywhere from -1 to -1.60 GOE on it. If we look at it in the extreme case, She would get (5-1.60) + (.10 *5) = 3.9. That would have given her a total of about 118, plus any GOE she lost for underrotating the jump. Plus, I think her PCS might have been slightly higher because falls tend to detract from the program. Considering that this is a national event, in which inflation is all too common, I would have expected her to get 120+ easily with the performance she gave last night, so I don't know how you could say that the judges were being lenient here. About the Mirai not under-rotating, I may be wrong, but the jumps that I felt were under-rotated and weren't, here, have almost always been at the international events, so it's hard to believe that they weren't again, but who knows, she must have been wroking hard on them or something and maybe they weren't UR, but after Caroline's luz got UR yesterday, I just hink it's unfair that Mirai, or anyone else, didn't suffer the same fate. We all have our favorites, but that doesn't mean that Feriana and I wish ill-will on anyone or try to degrade the other skaters in some way. It just means that because we like Caroline, we are willing to defend her. I'm actually happy Mirai won, and I'm proud of Rachael and Ashely too.

I'm not even going to try reading this until you learn how to use PARAGRAPHS.

carolinefan177 · Jan 27, 2008

GoldMedalist said:
I'm not even going to try reading this until you learn how to use PARAGRAPHS.

Alrighty then; I'll take your frankness. Now read it.

feraina · Jan 27, 2008

I'm not "denigrating" the top skaters. As it turned out the LP scores were very close among the top four, and small tech call differences matter, like levels on spins & spirals, and edge calls, and downgrades. For instance, why was Caroline's last combo spin not level 4? To me it had more than sufficient features to merit level 4, she held each positions at least 3 revolutions, and she's been getting it level 4 consistently in the past. The spiral sequence maybe actually deserved level 3, b/c she didn't hold her last position very long.

As for the other three young skaters, I don't believe that I said anything that others haven't noted (Ashley & Rachael should've gotten edge deductions, Rachael was slow, Mirai was tight and expressionless until toward the end of her program), except that perhaps I've voiced most strongly the opinion that Mirai should've gotten more downgrades on her jumps in the LP.

I AM curious about this last point, to me, several of her jumps, aside from the 3-3, should've been downgraded, including some doubles. The replays they showed at the end of the NBC broadcast gave me additional reasons to believe this. What are other people's opinions?

In any case, I'm really happy that Caroline has decided to go back to JW. That she decided to go, and with such swiftness, makes me believe me that she's willing to work hard, come back, and fight to defend her crown. I hope she skates lights out, and put together two stunning programs! :rock:

Mathman · Jan 27, 2008

There has been a lot of controversy about whether the average fan can understand the CoP and whether this possiible confusion adversely affects the popularity of the sport.

IMO, the commentators have done a pretty good job of explaining the point system on the tech side. Some elements are harder than others, you get deductions for mistakes and bonuses for extra high quality.

Speaking for myself, it's that doggone Performance/Choreography/Interpretation thing that I can't make heads of tails of.

In the LP, Caroline Zhang scored substantially below Mirai Nagasu in Interpretation. Why? Well, for one thing, Caroline skated too slowly. Not enough pizzazz. You might almost call the mood of her performance "solemn and reverent."

Everyone knows that Ave Maria should be dashed through like a penitent telling her rossary as fast as possible so she can get back to her video games.

Performance/Execution? Isn't that the part about the "invisible connection with the audience?" Caroline's performance held the hearts of the audience in the palm of her hand throughout. The reaction to Mirai's LP was more like, well, the SP should hold her up for the title anyway.

Incidently, Mirai got almost identical PCSs for an outstanding SP (in which she interpreted the heck out of that cutesy-poo music), as for her so-so long program. LP PCS = 57.83. SP PCS (factored) = 57.66.

On the other hand, I thought Mirai's choreography in the LP was super. She pantomined the story of the doll that came to life and made me believe she was a lttile doll out there. :rock:

So, as usual, I am left without much of a clue as to what the jugdes are scoring in terms of these three component score, Performance/Execution, Interpretation, and Choreography. :scratch:
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Edited to add: Paragraphing, A. Content, C+.

Protocols! Who Was Downgraded? Who Flutzed or Lipped?

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

chuckm

tae04

kikakiks

chuckm

feraina

bekalc

netnuts

Match Penalty

Wrlmy

bekalc

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

chuckm

bekalc

chuckm

carolinefan177

bekalc

GoldMedalist

Match Penalty

carolinefan177

feraina

Mathman

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