ISU Congress: Age limit to gradually increase to 17

[lariko]

She had a lot of competition internally. She had Lipinski, Hughes and Cohen to contend with (and before that, Kerrigan, Harding and Bobek) and still managed to win 9 National titles including 8 in a row. Her one loss in a 10 year starting in 1996 run was to Lipinski. Her losses at the Olympics were also to other Americans. Internationally, she had to beat two top Russian skaters and lost Worlds to them three times.

I think Russians would be happy if they had 3/4 chances to get int assignments, with just one woman left behind, while they all get GP spots… I mean, they just shoved Sinitsina back into juniors to keep the size of NT from overflowing.

 

[mrrice]

Michelle Kwan was barely 15 when she skated this LP in 1995. She really did transform in 1996. Hopefully, we'll see great performances like this from Juniors of the same age. Placing 4th seemed to be a disappointment but, I thought she was great.

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[Amei]

She had a lot of competition internally. She had Lipinski, Hughes and Cohen to contend with (and before that, Kerrigan, Harding and Bobek) and still managed to win 9 National titles including 8 in a row. Her one loss in a 10 year run starting in 1996 was to Lipinski. Her losses at the Olympics were also to other Americans. Internationally, she had to beat two top Russian skaters and lost Worlds to them three times.

She did not have near the national competition that is in the current Russian field. Lipinski competed for only 3 years against Kwan, Bobek and Cohen were lovely skaters but hot messes when it came to competition, Cohen I think had only a couple of competitions across her entire career where she was clean across both segments and Kwan was an established skater when Cohen came on and the 6.0 era favored established skaters - Cohen's first nationals after the scores were announced Dick Button said she hadn't put her time in yet.

 

[jenaj]

She did not have near the national competition that is in the current Russian field. Lipinski competed for only 3 years against Kwan, Bobek and Cohen were lovely skaters but hot messes when it came to competition, Cohen I think had only a couple of competitions across her entire career where she was clean across both segments and Kwan was an established skater when Cohen came on and the 6.0 era favored established skaters - Cohen's first nationals after the scores were announced Dick Button said she hadn't put her time in yet.

I never said she had "near" the competition of the current Russians. Your post suggested she had easy competition--"lucky her." It was never easy. Cohen was not a "hot mess." Yes, she rarely skated 100% clean but she beat Michelle several times, including at World's, and I think the USFS wanted her to win to bring in "new blood." There were several times, at least, when she led Michelle after the short program, putting the pressure on Michelle. She was "new," kind of, in 2002 (she competed at Nationals in 2000), but continued through 2006, winning an Olympic silver, so she was an established skater, too. Michelle's successes at Worlds gave the US ladies three spots for years. That was what guaranteed her a spot, not luck.

 

[lariko]

I think there is literally nothing for it but to wait and see. And we won’t see the final outcomes of the changes until maybe 5 years into the future if then. If Russians are even competing, because a lot of the rule-changing is impacting specifically Russians, American, Japanese and Korean, who compete young and have women with ultra-c pre new age limit. I have zero confidence in national judging, sorry, so the only way for me personally to tell is when everyone is in the same competition with the same technical and judging panel.

I hate waiting….

 

[mrrice]

She did not have near the national competition that is in the current Russian field. Lipinski competed for only 3 years against Kwan, Bobek and Cohen were lovely skaters but hot messes when it came to competition, Cohen I think had only a couple of competitions across her entire career where she was clean across both segments and Kwan was an established skater when Cohen came on and the 6.0 era favored established skaters - Cohen's first nationals after the scores were announced Dick Button said she hadn't put her time in yet.

...........For you to call a 9 time National Champion, 5 time World Champion, and 2 time Olympic Medalist a "Hot Mess" is an insult, not just to Michelle, but all the skaters she defeated to win those titles. Including, Maria Butryskaya, Irina Slutskaya, Elena Sokolova, and others. All Russian and not a Hot Mess in this group. I'm not sure why you would choose to use such a cruel phrase for ANY skater that has won their Country's National Championship. Skating goes in "Era's" and during their time, if you balance the career's of the skaters Michelle competed with, she is the Clear Winner.

We all know how much I love Maria Butyrskaya, and she used to admit that nerves were her biggest competition. 1 World Championship, 6 Russian Titles, 2 European Titles, and 4th at the Games in 1998. A great career by anyone's standard. However, it doesn't compare to Michelle's.

Can't you praise the skaters you enjoy without putting other "Great Champions" Down.......

 

[lariko]

I'm not sure why you would choose to use such a cruel phrase for ANY skater that has won their Country's National Championship.

*cough, cough* the US National Champion of 1990/1991 and Russian National Champion of 2021/2022…

 

[mrrice]

*cough, cough* the US National Champion of 1990/1991 and Russian National Champion of 2021/2022…

KABOOM..... You Win The Bonus Prize....

 

[arewhyaen]

She did not have near the national competition that is in the current Russian field. Lipinski competed for only 3 years against Kwan, Bobek and Cohen were lovely skaters but hot messes when it came to competition, Cohen I think had only a couple of competitions across her entire career where she was clean across both segments and Kwan was an established skater when Cohen came on and the 6.0 era favored established skaters - Cohen's first nationals after the scores were announced Dick Button said she hadn't put her time in yet.

I think skating in general favors established skaters. Partly because people love seeing their faves win, partly because new skaters on the scene usually do legitimately have areas to improve - usually in presentation, skating skills, maturity, and jump technique. I don't think the 6.0 system favors new skaters any more than IJS - its usually what the judges use PCS for, unfortunately.

 

[Magill]

I think skating in general favors established skaters. Partly because people love seeing their faves win, partly because new skaters on the scene usually do legitimately have areas to improve - usually in presentation, skating skills, maturity, and jump technique. I don't think the 6.0 system favors new skaters any more than IJS - its usually what the judges use PCS for, unfortunately.

... and sometimes GOEs, which is even less fortunate.

 

[Amei]

...........For you to call a 9 time National Champion, 5 time World Champion, and 2 time Olympic Medalist a "Hot Mess" is an insult, not just to Michelle, but all the skaters she defeated to win those titles. Including, Maria Butryskaya, Irina Slutskaya, Elena Sokolova, and others. All Russian and not a Hot Mess in this group. I'm not sure why you would choose to use such a cruel phrase for ANY skater that has won their Country's National Championship. Skating goes in "Era's" and during their time, if you balance the career's of the skaters Michelle competed with, she is the Clear Winner.

We all know how much I love Maria Butyrskaya, and she used to admit that nerves were her biggest competition. 1 World Championship, 6 Russian Titles, 2 European Titles, and 4th at the Games in 1998. A great career by anyone's standard. However, it doesn't compare to Michelle's.

Can't you praise the skaters you enjoy without putting other "Great Champions" Down.......

I wasn't calling Kwan a hot mess - I was calling Bobek and Cohen hot messes (the latter of which is 1 of my favorites); the point was Kwan didn't have the domestic competition that the current Russians do which was the start of the discussion. Kwan never had much in the way of a struggle to get international assignments (hello 2006 where they were going to send her to the Olympics without having competed all year), whereas Zagitova was looking at maybe another year that would involve GP assignments than nothing. The debate started about 'long careers' and people saying that Zagitova could have been Katarina Witt and preferring long careers like Kwan...that's pretty impossible to do having to come out of Russia, the closest that may come to that is Tuktamysheva and even then she's missing the 'big' competitions with the exception of last year for Worlds.

 

[arewhyaen]

I wasn't calling Kwan a hot mess - I was calling Bobek and Cohen hot messes (the latter of which is 1 of my favorites); the point was Kwan didn't have the domestic competition that the current Russians do which was the start of the discussion. Kwan never had much in the way of a struggle to get international assignments (hello 2006 where they were going to send her to the Olympics without having competed all year), whereas Zagitova was looking at maybe another year that would involve GP assignments than nothing. The debate started about 'long careers' and people saying that Zagitova could have been Katarina Witt and preferring long careers like Kwan...that's pretty impossible to do having to come out of Russia, the closest that may come to that is Tuktamysheva and even then she's missing the 'big' competitions with the exception of last year for Worlds.

I would say that Russian ladies currently has the deepest field in the history of the sport. With that said, the depth of US ladies during the Kwan era came pretty darn close to what the Russians are today. Every year Kwan competed, the US ladies were a legitimate threat at sweeping worlds and Olympic medals. They all had the top technical content to compete with and beat the rest of the world, and thanks to Kwan, many of them developed into better artists to compete with Kwan's presentation marks. So don't sell Kwan short, she's considered one of the greatest for a reason. And it wasn't just luck of the draw, or lack of legitimate competition. She was just that good.