One Judge's View

[jimreuter]

Repeat of post on the USFSA board:

The best job I ever had is Dad to my daughter. The second best job is Jim to hundreds (thousands?) of skaters.

I am a USFSA judge, and a USFSA Accountant. Accounting is strange and technical, but not very emotional – you crank the numbers and the results pop out. Judging is strange and sometimes very emotional – I care about every kid that is out there skating, I know how hard they work, I cringe every time they fall (or even step out of a jump). I get very excited when they have a great performance (like Mirai’s Short Program at Nationals). But I judge the performance that I see, whether it be good or bad. If one of my favorite kids has a bad day, I give her a bad score – that is the job.

I have read in silence the criticism of judging that I see on the Internet, and I am tired of it. The judges are real people like me, most of them previous competitive skaters, a few parents of competitors that chose to get involved. We do our best always to mark the skater’s performance as best we can. If you think you can do better, then GET INVOLVED – BECOME A JUDGE ! Give me an occasional weekend off.

 

[chuckm]

Nationals judges aren't the ones being heavily criticized---it's some of the ISU judges who have been caught cheating in the past, and yet are still judging, only now they have the cover of secrecy for any wheeling and dealing.

The only criticism of Nationals scoring I have seen involves the USFS tech team ignoring flutzing, lipping and underrotations on the part of some of the skaters. The judges didn't make those calls.

 

[jimreuter]

The analysis I have seen, (and the anecdotal evidence from when I have been on the headsets) is that the Technical Panels are doing a very good job of being consistent within an event. George Rossano has done a lot of analysis on this.

 

[Mafke]

I have read in silence the criticism of judging that I see on the Internet, and I am tired of it. The judges are real people like me, most of them previous competitive skaters, a few parents of competitors that chose to get involved. We do our best always to mark the skater’s performance as best we can.

Yes, your'e absolutely right. Judging is a thankless job and I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of judges are just doing the best they can within the guidelines they have to follow.

And, truth to tell, very few of even the most controversial decisions are really that questionable.

But there are the (very) occasional "what the ???" moments (much more in international than USFSA competitions) and unfortunately those are what people remember. Nobody pays much attention when the judges get it right (which is almost all the time broadly speaking) and instead focus on the occasional bizarre result.

But again (I don't want to leave with that thought) almost all judges almost all the time do a really good job and deserve some love from the fans.

 

[chuckm]

Then how to explain why Flatt, Zhang, Wagner and Nagasu got dinged for flutzing and/or URs at Jr Worlds/4CC yet received no such calls at Nationals? Wagner, in particular, got heavily penalized for flutzing (a total of -4.29 points) at 4CC, but none at Nationals.

 

[jimreuter]

Perhaps even more remarkable given the International tendancy to give features for "Counter like" or " Rocker like" moves in footwork sequences when the USFSA panels have not been buying the shallow edges.

 

[Hsuhs]

Heartbreaking.

 

[emma]

Jim,

Thanks for posting -- it is always very, very interesting to get an inside view.

As one of the posters who screamed Weir was robbed, I do, most sincerely, hope you know that in my case at least, I didn't hold any particular person responsible. I know it must seem empty to hear: don't take it personally, but at the moment of my 'scream' it really, really wasn't personal - in fact, I didn't and don't know who the judges were.

Yet, having said that - I can imagine just how awful it must be to work so hard and so conscientiously and not be known. So for that, I do apologize and will make a huge effort to pay more attention to that part of the sport/art too, and get to know - at the very least - who the judges.

One more quick point - while I did scream 'wuz robbed' with Weir - i rarely, rarely do. But, more importantly, i think, i have stated more than once how much I love judged sports just for the very fact that judging is part of the mix - whether the judges are judges or referees or whatever - I love that 'subjective' aspect and mix in the sporting event - and calling out the judges (rightly or wrongly) is part of the thrill of the event for me. Please know it isn't intended to be mean spirited - AND I will be much more aware of the implications of my statements. in the future

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can't help but agree with the judge's belief in that what he sees is what he judges regardless of what he saw prior to the competition. That is exactly what I follow in looking for results of a competition. Without opening a can of worms, I believed B&S were the better team than S&P, but at the moment of truth, I saw perfecton by S&P and not by B&S back in 2002. Sad, but that's the way I saw it, and it is a good example of what that judge in question is talking about. The results of all competitions show the best that day/night of competition and not last week, last competition, last year but only at that present one.

However, he must have noticed prior to CoP some of the most obvious cases of cheating in international judging. I'm not looking for examples because I think that era is over. The CoP has made it very difficult to cheat. What remains in judging is a bit of secrecy as to the names of which judges gave higher GoEs to other skaters; what are the names of the judges that replace others for another phase of the competition, and see if those that remain are giving higher than usual grades or even lower than usual grades depending on what skater they are judging. The fans do not have this information.

What the CoP should do is open up and let the public and other skating officials know what scores they are giving out. If they do so, I think that will cut critics of the judges by at least 60 per cent. The rest would consider the judges are inept, but accept the results.

One question to Mr. Reuter: What do you do if you do not agree with the Technical Panel on what they call?

As to rocker-like or counter-like, I believe the footwork is judged on the wild arms and roar of the crowd. Personally, I do not believe basics can be seen clearly in the footwork with arm movements.

Joesitz

 

[Tinymavy15]

thanks for posting Jim. Please keep us updated with "a judge's perspective." It must be really hard for judges these days keeping on top of all the rules and I would like to say, as a competitive skater that i never blamed a judge for my poor placement. I know you guys try to be fair and that it is a tough job.

 

[escaflowne9282]

I can't help but agree with the judge's belief in that what he sees is what he judges regardless of what he saw prior to the competition. That is exactly what I follow in looking for results of a competition. Without opening a can of worms, I believed B&S were the better team than S&P, but at the moment of truth, I saw perfecton by S&P and not by B&S back in 2002. Sad, but that's the way I saw it, and it is a good example of what that judge in question is talking about. The results of all competitions show the best that day/night of competition and not last week, last competition, last year but only at that present one.

Joesitz

Not to open up this particular can of worms again either, but in expanding upon this from the fans' perspective, you have to take into account the subjective nature of the sport with regards to judging. You may have found Team A or Skater A (in the case of the can of worms we are both trying to not open, S&P) to be absolutely enchanting in every way possible. Someone else may look at that particular performance and say "I don't get it" and go with an instinct that tells them to reward something else. In such a case, if someone has logically come to a different conclusion than you have, and he or she is still being true to their position, then they are rewarding what they feel is the best on that night.

In the more current case of Weir vs Lysacek, I think Weir should have won the National Title and I find it ridiculous that he did not. However, if the judges who gave high PCS and GOE to Lysacek legitimately found his technique, or the components of his Presentation to be stronger than that of Weir's, I can't logically say that what they are doing as judges is wrong. I can express disappointment in their assessment because it doesn't follow mine, but to go into hysterics over it is quite OTT. What is simply needed under the COP as well as what was needed under the Ordinal system, was more transparency into the judges decisions. It would be nice if the public had more of an awareness of what the judges saw when they saw it, or to hear them identify what makes a particular element +1 or -2 etc.

 

[demarinis5]

thanks for posting Jim. Please keep us updated with "a judge's perspective." It must be really hard for judges these days keeping on top of all the rules and I would like to say, as a competitive skater that i never blamed a judge for my poor placement. I know you guys try to be fair and that it is a tough job.

Good point, It is usually the fans of said skater that are upset with a judge's placement. The majority of skaters do not blame the judges and acept their placement..

 

[jimreuter]

Wow! I am very glad I started this discussion. I am very, very much appreciative of TinyMavy's comments, since I just retried her test yesterday, and most people would be flaming me now as a result.

So get involved. All of you. Lots of people have viewed this thread, although few have replied. GET INVOLVED. Voluteer to help at a local competition. Trial judge. Help in the Accounting room. Help with registration. I started out 13 years ago helping with registration at a little ISI competition, and Judy Marvin (Brandy's mom, for those who remember) trained me. I will be dellighted to train you, and pay back some of the debt I owe.

C'mon Mary. Let's do it at Spring Fling.

 

[cassieandcheetah]

Wow! I am very glad I started this discussion. I am very, very much appreciative of TinyMavy's comments, since I just retried her test yesterday, and most people would be flaming me now as a result.

So get involved. All of you. Lots of people have viewed this thread, although few have replied. GET INVOLVED. Voluteer to help at a local competition. Trial judge. Help in the Accounting room. Help with registration. I started out 13 years ago helping with registration at a little ISI competition, and Judy Marvin (Brandy's mom, for those who remember) trained me. I will be dellighted to train you, and pay back some of the debt I owe.

C'mon Mary. Let's do it at Spring Fling.

Thank you for writing on this forum jimreuter! I'm sorry I didn't get to say an earlier thank you, but I was writing a report for a school assignment....I rarely blame anything on the judges. I only think it's quite a tough system you guys have to work with, but I think most of us appreciate you guys doing your best. Though I'm currently busy as a student, I do hope to become more involved and volunteer at local competitions once I become a parent. So please give me like 10 more years maybe?

Cassie

 

[jimreuter]

Joe,

You know who I am because I post under my own name. If you wish to have credibility, you need to post under your own name also.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

I agree with this guy. Judges get too much slack. Because SOME judges are corrupt, it gives a bad name to the whole proffession, which is wrong, as most are honest and efficient.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe,

You know who I am because I post under my own name. If you wish to have credibility, you need to post under your own name also.

Jim - I really don't know you and Joe is my own name. I am not now and never have been an official of the USFS, but thanks for the thought. Just the run of the mill fs fan.

Joe

 

[Mafke]

I agree with this guy. Judges get too much slack. Because SOME judges are corrupt, it gives a bad name to the whole proffession, which is wrong, as most are honest and efficient.

I think maybe you're mixing idioms.

To give (more often 'cut') someone slack means 'be easy on, give the benefit of a doubt to'

I think judges get too much flack (undeserved criticism).

 

[PolymerBob]

I think maybe you're mixing idioms.

To give (more often 'cut') someone slack means 'be easy on, give the benefit of a doubt to'

I think judges get too much flack (undeserved criticism).

While we're at it, "flack", or actually "flak", is an old German acronym for Fliegerabwehrkanone. This means "flier defense cannon". In English usage, flak came to mean the fragments produced by exploding antiaircraft shells.

 

[sillylionlove]

Thanks for the inside view on judging. It must be a hard job to be a judge, especially in these times with a judging system that no one (fans that is) really understands and with so many scandals.