One Judge's View

[skatergirl45]

Thank you!
It gave me more appreciation for the judges that judge me!
THis is another judging based question but I have always been confused how one judge can rank the skater 1 and another judge 7???????

 

[gkelly]

THis is another judging based question but I have always been confused how one judge can rank the skater 1 and another judge 7???????

This is really a question about the 6.0 system, since judges aren't ranking skaters in the new system.

Some of the same reasons might apply to why would one judge give a certain skater his/her highest mark on a certain program component and another judge give that skater only his/her seventh highest mark on that component.

Most likely reason, different priorities. For whole programs, one judge might pay the most attention to the basic skating technique, another judge to the difficulty of the elements completed or the correctness of the technique on the elements, another judge to carriage and body line, and another to musical expression. And then they might each have another area that they consider second most important. So if several skaters, each with different strengths and weaknesses, all perform approximately equally well, judges who have different priorities will choose different skaters to put in first place (or first among that group of skaters).

Different perceptions. Suppose one judge saw all this skater's jumps as clean and another judge saw them all as significantly cheated. The first judge would be more likely to put the skater ahead of competitors who landed most of their jumps undisputedly cleanly but fell on one or two; the second judge would more likely put that skater behind those other skaters.

It's also always possible that one (or both) of the judges just happened to miss some crucial details in the skater's performance. Maybe they looked down briefly to make a note on an element they thought was completed and missed the more difficult (or more flawed) second half of a jump sequence or spin combination or the second of two elements performed one right after the other. Maybe they just happened to be seated at an angle where they couldn't see the skater's feet when the skater was too close to the boards on the the judges' side, or an axel jump came straight at them at such an angle that they couldn't accurately count the revolutions and mistook a double for a triple or vice versa.

 

[PolymerBob]

I have an idea for an interesting experiment. Why not have more than one panel of judges at the next major competition. There would be one "official" panel that would decide the actual outcome. But there would also be a few more experimental panels who will judge the event independantly. That way, we could see how consistent the judging actually is, and what improvements, if any, need to be made.

 

[jimreuter]

Sometimes the skaters don't skate well, but the judges have to decide on a placement anyway. So do you assign more weight to the speed, the smile, the centering of the spins ---

And sometimes I just blow the call. Sorry, I'm human and I try my best. That is why there are so many judges on the panel - hopefully the majority of us get it right.

 

[Winnipeg]

Thanks for the post Jim - it must be hard to be a judge, I can only imagine what they must experience through parents that might disagree with a placement or test result...............

I have also observed the amount of time it takes to ascertain jduging credentials. One year at Canadians there was a group of judges in training behind the real judges. I had the great opportunity to talk to one of them when she was not practice judging...............a lot of effort to get there indeed.

 

[yelyoh]

Jim what do you think of the idea of there being two different panels to judge the tech and the PC scores?

 

[chuckm]

Actually, judges ARE ranking skaters under CoP, only they use GOE and PCS as their ordinals.

 

[ToePick]

Jim -- as someone else who has viewed the thread, but had not yet responded, I just wanted to add to the chorus of thank yous for giving us your point of view. Although I try not to jump on the "wuz robbed" bandwagons, I think that (especially with increased anonymity of judges), it is easy to forget that you guys are living, breathing humans (who make real, human mistakes!), not automated robots!!!

Thank you -- for offering us some insight, for your demonstrated dedication to a sport that all of us here love, for being willing to admit to your human mistakes, and for encouraging us to get involved!! I truly appreciate your creation of this thread and the views you have shared with us. I hope you remain a member around here (even if an infrequent poster) for a long, long time.

 

[SusanBeth]

I do appreciate your comments. I understand most judges do their best. I just don't think that you are giving enough credit to the fans. I am involved as much as I can be. I have loved skating passionately for over 30 years. I have watched and supported skaters and skating. I have tried to learn as much as I can about the sport and will continue to do so.

I think fans have a responsibility to speak up when there is a question of fairness in the judging. You cannot deny that the system has been riddled with corruption over the years and that fan outrage has been an impetus for change. Look around the boards. Can you see that we are all trying to learn as much as we can so that we can be fair? That's getting involved.

Believe me, your help and input will be given serious weight and greatly appreciated. How about showing some appreciation for us? We play an important role in the process. When we give up and shut up and blindly accept every decision, then you know skating is beyond all hope of recovery.

 

[blue dog]

I have an idea for an interesting experiment. Why not have more than one panel of judges at the next major competition. There would be one "official" panel that would decide the actual outcome. But there would also be a few more experimental panels who will judge the event independantly. That way, we could see how consistent the judging actually is, and what improvements, if any, need to be made.

Bob, if only I were the ISU president! I think your idea is great--years ago, when they were planning on implementing the CoP, this was an idea to test it that never came to use. They were going to have a 6.0 panel and a CoP panel judge an event.

 

[jimreuter]

from Yelyohs original message:

Jim what do you think of the idea of there being two different panels to judge the tech and the PC scores?


Actually, we did that sometimes in the early days of IJS at non-qualifying competitions. The reason was too cut down on the amount of data we had to manually enter in the computers. I thought it worked pretty well, but I know some judges found it pretty boring. Certainly it didn't train judges with the skills they would need at qualifying competitions.

As far as I know, nobody is still doing it that way.

 

[SNL89Sydney]

uh

The analysis I have seen, (and the anecdotal evidence from when I have been on the headsets) is that the Technical Panels are doing a very good job of being consistent within an event. George Rossano has done a lot of analysis on this.

International judging is a different ballpark. Last year, at Junior Worlds, the Ladies competition had no judges from the USA, no judges from Canada - but there was a judge from India (noted figure skating powerhouse). Soooo..
Would this judge have the nerve to make their own call and defend it? (Charlie Cyr would - and did at a different event).

hmmmm interesting...obviously you have NOT been doing your research. India does not have any judges internationally ranked and obviously not ISU ranked. It is interesting to note the derision and subtle condescension of that sentence directly after the India mistake; whilst i'm not trying to state the obvious, it IS however obvious that you hold the notion that judges from the USA (and Canada for that matter) should be present at most events, inversely hiding the true nature of your statement. Yes, USA and Canada have some excellent judges and Callers but it seems that you forget that there are other Quality judges from around the world. I'm from Australia, and whilst we are not a strong skating country, we have a considerable amount of high quality judges. For a skating nation our size we have six singles ISU judges (there used to be more, however two of our most excellent judges perished last year), four in dance, plus a Technical Controller for both singles and pairs; and one Technical Specialist for each of Pairs, Dance and Synchronized Skating.

Oh, and by the way the reason that the USA and Canada were not present in the Ladies division was because they were probably (most likely) not drawn

 

[R.D.]

Interesting perspective, and yes, apparently we DO have officials cruising the boards unnoticed...I wonder if any skaters have enough gall to do the same...

My view is that as long as skating involves judges, unless the result is a blow-out (or clear-cut) there will be ambiguities in the results, and therefore disagreements among fans. My question would be, has Cop REALLY done enough to try to eliminate as much of this as possible?

 

[jimreuter]

hmmmm interesting...obviously you have NOT been doing your research. India does not have any judges internationally ranked and obviously not ISU ranked. It is interesting to note the derision and subtle condescension of that sentence directly after the India mistake; whilst i'm not trying to state the obvious, it IS however obvious that you hold the notion that judges from the USA (and Canada for that matter) should be present at most events, inversely hiding the true nature of your statement. Yes, USA and Canada have some excellent judges and Callers but it seems that you forget that there are other Quality judges from around the world. I'm from Australia, and whilst we are not a strong skating country, we have a considerable amount of high quality judges. For a skating nation our size we have six singles ISU judges (there used to be more, however two of our most excellent judges perished last year), four in dance, plus a Technical Controller for both singles and pairs; and one Technical Specialist for each of Pairs, Dance and Synchronized Skating.

Oh, and by the way the reason that the USA and Canada were not present in the Ladies division was because they were probably (most likely) not drawn

Sorry, I stand corrected. I was relying on information from one of the coaches at the event. I certainly did not mean to imply that only the US and Canada have good judges. I think I'm going to go back and delete my original post, and return to lurking before I get in any more trouble.

 

[sillylionlove]

I think that judging in most sports, where there is judging, are having problems right now. This is not just related to figure skating. Look at gymnastics....they have a new system, not based on the 10.0, and the fans are also having problems dealing with this system and understanding the system.

So.......we are not the only fans that have a system that we don't really understand or have problems with the judging and the scoring systems.

 

[Kinga]

Dear Jim
I do agree that most of the judges just want to do their job correctly. I do agree that this is extremely difficult, especially if the critique towards you guys is undeserved. But believe me, both skaters and the audience appreciate the honest work, it is not fogotten!
However, I think that there are some judges that will put their favourite skaters ahead no matter what. And actually it shows at many events. Many times judges get it right, but often they don't. And it is true especially for the ranks further down in the list. Because who cares if someone who deserved 11th place was ranked 16th? This becomes either unspotted or forgotten very quickly. Only if there was an obvious 'misranking' in top 6 - everyone talks about it.
In conclusion - we, audience, do expect judges to do the right job. Don't be surprise that we do! Also, we do have right to have critisism to judges even if we are not delegates ourselves. So the argument 'do it better yourself' is not valid to me. You chose to be the judge, I chose to be an observer. And this fact does not give rights to judges to think that they can do whatever they want, because others don't want to be involved.

I am sorry if this sounds a bit 'bitter'. I don't mean to insult any one. This is just my personal opinion on the subject, which I put in words the best I could.

Words of appreciation for those who do it right! I guess that being a good judge is a bit like being a good skater - either you have talent to do it, or not (plus honesty counts too, of course).
K.

 

[ManyCairns]

Sorry, I stand corrected. I was relying on information from one of the coaches at the event. I certainly did not mean to imply that only the US and Canada have good judges. I think I'm going to go back and delete my original post, and return to lurking before I get in any more trouble.

I hope you're kidding about deleting your post. The overwhelming number of responses to your original comments have been positive and appreciative.

I doubt I've ever made a post on any forum that received 100% agreement.

Again, surely you were kidding.

 

[gkelly]

However, I think that there are some judges that will put their favourite skaters ahead no matter what. And actually it shows at many events. Many times judges get it right, but often they don't.

But how do you, as a single outside observer with your own biases and preferences, know when judges get it right and when they get it wrong?

Sometimes the judges will get it wrong and you will get it right.

Sometimes the judges will get it right and you will get it wrong.

Often judges will disagree with each other.

Maybe some got it right and some got it wrong. Maybe they all got it wrong in different ways.

But most often, when several skaters skate approximately equally well, they all got it right according to their own values, which includes all their knowledge and expertise and also their own individual preferences, thus accounting for their differences of opinion.

In those cases, you as an individual will probably agree with some of the judges and disagree with the others. If those you agree with prevail in the final results, you'll think they got it right. If your opinion ended up in the minority, you'll think the majority was wrong.

But do you adjust for your own biases and account for the probability that in many competitions there are multiple possible "right" answers before you dismiss results you don't agree with as wrong?

 

[dorispulaski]

Jim, Please don't be discouraged. We all appreciate your courage to post here as a judge, and of course, we all have questions and opinions.

Besides, I would still like to know whether the judges have any ability or at least a process to correct an obvious mistake by the caller. (Say calling a lutz an axel by hitting a wrong key or symbol by accident). Do the judges have any ability to do this, or does the mistake just stand?

BTW, thank you for your work to advance figure skating by being a judge.

 

[Hsuhs]

We all appreciate your courage.

we all have questions

Huh?