2023 World Junior Men's Free Skate

[NanaPat]

Someone was even complaining that Basynska/Beaumont should not be competing here, even though their bio lists 0 senior results, because "they skate like seniors".

 

[TallyT]

I really don’t think I’m being bias; I don’t even like Repond that much, although I do appreciate her drive. But I do agree that the criteria should be cut-and-dried and standardized across the board. The way I’m thinking the rules should be, the results would be: Repond out. Malinin out (this year, but not last), Miura out. Kagiyama out. And so on and so forth.

No, by any standard of fairness under your own vague criteria, Malinin should have been unable to compete at both levels last year. If one person shouldn't be allowed to, no one should. And if Miura is out of the Juniors, so is everyone, and I do mean everyone, older than him (tell me, if he hadn't gone to 4CC but had still been as accomplished as he was today, would you still be arguing that he's 'too seniorish'?)

(I can't believe I'm bickering this much about a skater I'm not really devoted to, but I don't like double standards and unfairness. And your argument is not fair.)

This is a competition, and no competition I would have any time for has rules that say "people who fit all the rules but are too good must not compete, it's unfair to the rest."

 

[anonymoose_au]

If you compete at a senior competition, you can't compete at the junior level again?

I always thought that was the rule, but apparently not!

But I caught up on all the lads, the last group was pretty good and Kao was just amazing!

 

[anonymoose_au]

There is already an ISU rule that excludes skaters who do JGP from doing GP and vice versa. If the ISU wanted to forbid skaters from category hopping in ISU championships (or challengers), there would be a rule.

Those unhappy about this, can blame the ISU... not the skater... nor their team.

Ah that's the rule I was thinking of!

Also it's kinda funny that people are complaining about Kao looking like a senior here, because when he was at 4CCs they were arguing the other way around!

 

[4everchan]

Ah that's the rule I was thinking of!

Also it's kinda funny that people are complaining about Kao looking like a senior here, because when he was at 4CCs they were arguing the other way around!

Exactly...and on top of that, i would argue that it is the aim of most junior skaters to start looking as seniors at JWC

 

[lariko]

Ah that's the rule I was thinking of!

Also it's kinda funny that people are complaining about Kao looking like a senior here, because when he was at 4CCs they were arguing the other way around!

Wasn’t me. I saw him live in Skate Canada this year, and he looked great. When Japan put him into JWC, I knew that it was by the letter, but not in spirit. However, plenty of other skaters skate everything, including in that group of men, so it was obvious they sent them to get gold and 40 points difference wasn’t surprising. I think they tried to send Sato last year or something… heck, if Uno was 19, they’d probably send him.

And it’s not like ice dance top five looked like juniors either.

I still feel bad for Kim or Memola though. Imo US and Japan squeezed them out of podium position, but Kim looked like he would be skating juniors next year? Memola looked injured F since the first practice we attended on Thursday, so I thought he fought through free admirably. They don’t give medals for behaving admirably…

 

[anonymoose_au]

Exactly...and on top of that, i would argue that it is the aim of most junior skaters to start looking as seniors at JWC

Granted...they may not have been the SAME people Still I'm amused.

Schrodinger's Skater!

 

[lariko]

Actually, the biggest thing I didn’t get about judging was why Pitot wasn’t stopped the way Suntsev was for the same costume violation. It felt sooooooo unfair.

 

[TallyT]

Ah that's the rule I was thinking of!

They'd need to bring in a rule about anyone going to any seniors comp could not compete in any juniors, the same one or another, and vice versa. Lotsa luck getting that one past the Feds.

 

[4everchan]

They'd need to bring in a rule about anyone going to any seniors comp could not compete in any juniors, the same one of another, and vice versa. Lotsa luck getting that one past the Feds.

and if they did... i bet some skaters would keep going only as juniors much longer... in deep feds like ... Japan so it wouldn't even help the "juniorer juniors"

 

[Kris135]

I think that the standard should be what level is the skater skating at. If are they are competing in JGP level events in the fall then yes they should be eligible for junior worlds. Repond was skating in the junior grand prix level with a couple CS events thrown in before Europeans which basically happens when skaters are starting to move to seniors. Ilia basically did the same with the great majority of his events being junior level with a single CS to get his minimums for Seniors level events, did not work as planned that why he had to do the challenge cup last year to get the scores that he needed to go to worlds. Mura is much different case. He not skated a international junior event outside of junior worlds since 2019. He even won bronze medal at 4CC last year. That means he should be skating in senior events. I mean he was even in the Grand Prix Final this season. That alone should been more than enough to bar him from going junior worlds. Illia last year qualified for the JGP final not the senior event. He did have the skate of his young life at Nationals last season that why he he should been sent to the Olympics, for the experience, as well as his senior worlds debut. He was not double dipping because he was in junior level events in the fall. A lot skaters do this, but I believe if you are almost exclusively skating senior events that where you should stay. If Illia has medaled at senior world's last year I would have felt that he should have skipped junior worlds. Repond should not be punished just be a use she happened to be a weak Europeans this year. This will be less of an issue as age limits go up because there will less overlap between the two divisions but there really needs to be discussion about who and who should be there in the first place.

 

[YuBluByMe]

(tell me, if he hadn't gone to 4CC but had still been as accomplished as he was today, would you still be arguing that he's 'too seniorish'?

Yes, I would be. I sounded off on Miura’s selection to Junior Worlds as soon as Japan announced the assignments, which was right after Nationals in late December. I’ve already said this, but again, the key difference between Ilia and Miura is Ilia competed as a junior internationally last year and this year, Miura did not and did incredibly well on the GP circuit. There’s nothing vague about that. I thought I was clear on that point. It’s not a double standard because the situations are not the same.

 

[TallyT]

Yes, I would be. I sounded off on Miura’s selection to Junior Worlds as soon as Japan announced the assignments, which was right after Nationals in late December. I’ve already said this, but again, the key difference between Ilia and Miura is Ilia competed as a junior internationally last year and this year, Miura did not and did incredibly well on the GP circuit. There’s nothing vague about that. I thought I was clear on that point. It’s not a double standard because the situations are not the same.

You were clear on what you thought, but I disagree about it not being a double standard. I'm afraid I see it as special pleading of which there is a huge amount by fans about why some rules should not apply to this skater but should to another. Malinin was bumped up - moved between levels - because first being in juniors got him an advantage and then being in seniors suddenly suited him and his federation, and Miura was bumped down for the same reasons in reverse (and I loathe both feds, so am not really biased either way).

Rules are rules and saying "it's not fair, they followed the rules!" is... not a pretty look

ps - I will say however, that the people online calling both Kao and little Mao two of the GOATS of the sport already are just a tad more than premature.

 

[YuBluByMe]

You were clear on what you thought, but I disagree about it not being a double standard. Malinin was bumped up and Miura was bumped down .

Yeah, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on the double standards. But I highlighted the relevant parts in bold that best illustrates why I feel the way I do and why the two aren’t comparable.

 

[Jeanie19]

Actually, the biggest thing I didn’t get about judging was why Pitot wasn’t stopped the way Suntsev was for the same costume violation. It felt sooooooo unfair.

This needs to be reviewed. Suntsev had finished all his jumps, he had just 2 elements left. It was totally unfair.

 

[lariko]

This needs to be reviewed. Suntsev had finished all his jumps, he had just 2 elements left. It was totally unfair.

It was exactly the same situation because Suntsev re-skated the SS and Pitot skated the whole SS with the straps as obviously hanging loose and touching the ice as in Suntsev’s case. There was literally no difference.

 

[Jeanie19]

It was exactly the same situation because Suntsev re-skated the SS and Pitot skated the whole SS with the straps as obviously hanging loose and touching the ice as in Suntsev’s case. There was literally no difference.

Its totally unfair and I felt bad when it happened to Suntsev, but the fact that they did not do it to Pitot makes it so much worse.

 

[icewhite]

Miura competing was within the rules of course, but maybe the rules need a change. One can argue about taking part in junior/senior GPs, but someone who competed in the seniors' GP final should not be at junior worlds.
No doubt though that Japan deserves 3 spots in every singles' discipline...

 

[lariko]

Its totally unfair and I felt bad when it happened to Suntsev, but the fact that they did not do it to Pitot makes it so much worse.

I thought that safety is safety with Suntsev, but no call on Pitot made it unfair for me, because the length of the segment skated and the comparative risk to the skater was the same.

 

[lariko]

Miura competing was within the rules of course, but maybe the rules need a change. One can argue about taking part in junior/senior GPs, but someone who competed in the seniors' GP final should not be at junior worlds.
No doubt though that Japan deserves 3 spots in every singles' discipline...

You can’t really change those rules and allow the smaller federations to survive when they only have one guy doing everything. It is very hard to frame this rule in such a way that it says, “dammit, don’t send your really good skater who happens to be age-eligible and has TES qualifications, but it’s okay if it’s not a podium contender”. I guess the only way to do it is to insists that participating in at least one JGP event during the season is required to force the issue, but then it creates problems for skaters who showed a strong improvement in off-season that fed wanted to try out in juniors or they didn’t get a GP spot.