Opinion: The brevity of skating careers

[icewhite]

is what hurts the sport the most.
That's what I'm thinking more and more often.
Skaters who actually have a "career" with ups and downs, a journey to follow, are so popular. But there just aren't many skaters like that.
To grow the sport the most effective measure would be to try and keep people in the sport for a longer time.

 

[rain]

is what hurts the sport the most.
That's what I'm thinking more and more often.
Skaters who actually have a "career" with ups and downs, a journey to follow, are so popular. But there just aren't many skaters like that.
To grow the sport the most effective measure would be to try and keep people in the sport for a longer time.

I think that's one of the reasons that ice dance is one of the most successful disciplines — the skaters are around for at least two or three Olympic cycles.

It's especially bad in women's. I won't get into why since it will derail the thread. Suffice to say, I hope raising the age limit will have a positive impact.

It's what I worry about with the men now doing so many quads. How long can their bodies hold out? I think we're going to start seeing shorter and shorter careers, which is one of the reasons why I'm a proponent of limiting the number of quads (unpopular, I know).

 

[Jeanie19]

I want longevity, but not gifted scores. I think scores for what happened on the ice today should be what matters most. If you are new to figure skating and you see a skater fall and score way higher than someone with a clean skate, it is confusing.

 

[lariko]

is what hurts the sport the most.
That's what I'm thinking more and more often.
Skaters who actually have a "career" with ups and downs, a journey to follow, are so popular. But there just aren't many skaters like that.
To grow the sport the most effective measure would be to try and keep people in the sport for a longer time.

Personally, I think propping up the same person at the expense of younger talent does as much or even more damage, just like any dishonesty. Imo, the imbalance of the two halves of the season in terms of percieved importance, lack of junior competitions in second half, and the lack of viewing options for Nationals and Challengers hurt more than how many years someone tries to squeak by on rep. Also, lack of team competitions that force the feds to develop more skating disciplines.

Different skaters have different careers and nobody should be forced to stay for the good of the medal count when they obviously have other priorities.

The chances for each skater entering each competition should be more balanced, and we need a more sensible season payment scheme to watch Challengers and Nationals.

Not to mention that ignoring junior sport is what leads to perceived 'shortness' of the competitive career, when it really span ages 13 to 20 for most high achieving skaters. The multi-year stats gathered by @eppen showed that highly successful skaters start winning earlier and leave sport later than the average leet tier.

Overall though, the trouble is that the sport is super-small, with exceptionally little room for growth when someone stays on top for too long. That leads to quite a lot of decent skaters having a lackluster careers not measuring to their potential. Take Kolyada, who was no end of talented, but in terms of achievement he just couldn't break through to the podiums.

 

[Jeanie19]

Personally, I think propping up the same person at the expense of younger talent does as much or even more damage, just like any dishonesty. Imo, the imbalance of the two halves of the season in terms of percieved importance, lack of junior competitions in second half, and the lack of viewing options for Nationals and Challengers hurt more than how many years someone tries to squeak by on rep.

Different skaters have different careers and nobody should be forced to stay for the good of the medal count when they obviously have other priorities.

The chances for each skater entering each competition should be more balanced, and we need a more sensible season payment scheme to watch Challengers and Nationals.

Not to mention that ignoring junior sport is what leads to perceived 'shortness' of the competitive career, when it really span ages 13 to 20 for most high achieving skaters. The multi-year stats gathered by @eppen showed that highly successful skaters start winning earlier and leave sport later than the average leet tier.

Overall though, the trouble is that the sport is super-small, with exceptionally little room for growth when someone stays on top for too long. That leads to quite a lot of decent skaters having a lackluster careers not measuring to their potential. Take Kolyada, who was no end of talented, but in terms of achievement he just couldn't break through to the podiums.

And its not a new problem. Many skaters get discouraged and leave the sport early. In another time it was Alexander Abt that was overshadowed.

 

[yuumagical]

is what hurts the sport the most.
That's what I'm thinking more and more often.
Skaters who actually have a "career" with ups and downs, a journey to follow, are so popular. But there just aren't many skaters like that.
To grow the sport the most effective measure would be to try and keep people in the sport for a longer time.

Unfortunately, the ability of skaters to have long careers sometimes isn't within their control due to injuries or lack of funding. Injuries can't always be helped, but perhaps a better focus on injury prevention and access to medical professionals and physical therapists could improve things? It would be great to see more funds allocated to promising skaters, but where, ideally, should those funds come from? National feds, the ISU, people who pay for livestreams...?

I suppose the question I am trying to ask here is this: how can skaters who want to have long careers be supported in the best possible way?

 

[TallyT]

I think that's one of the reasons that ice dance is one of the most successful disciplines — the skaters are around for at least two or three Olympic cycles.

But how do you define 'successful'? They certainly aren't getting the attention and attendances that V/M and D/W did, even Takahashi (at one time the biggest male star in Japan) dipping into it didn't. For all the quad business and health risks, some of the men's careers are quite long-lasting - Shoma and Jason come straight to mind as the biggest of the current 'uncles' and I believe Chen hasn't formally retired yet. And while yes the women have shorter careers, Kaori for instance has actually been around and in and out of top 10 since 2014 and Bradie since 2018.

Personally, I think propping up the same person at the expense of younger talent does as much or even more damage, just like any dishonesty.

Blatant favouritism and politics put people off, it's a given. Look at the GPs so far this season.

Overall though, the trouble is that the sport is super-small, with exceptionally little room for growth when someone stays on top for too long. That leads to quite a lot of decent skaters having a lackluster careers not measuring to their potential. Take Kolyada, who was no end of talented, but in terms of achievement he just couldn't break through to the podiums.

However, when the ones on top are pushed down to make room, that doesn't exactly endear the sport either, so it is not that easy. I just don't think there is simple answers.

 

[lariko]

And its not a new problem. Many skaters get discouraged and leave the sport early. In another time it was Alexander Abt that was overshadowed.

It's like that in any sport that is limited to small number of events and small number of winners in each of those events.

 

[lariko]

At least when we have fast turn around in women, we got to see a lot more of them...and I felt their popularity wasn't hurt by time in spotlight.

 

[icewhite]

I want longevity, but not gifted scores. I think scores for what happened on the ice today should be what matters most. If you are new to figure skating and you see a skater fall and score way higher than someone with a clean skate, it is confusing.

Oh I definitely didn't mean to say that I want anyone to be propped or gifted scores just because they have been in the sport for long. Actually I don't know how exactly longer careers can be achieved and I did not have any particular measures in mind.
I was just wondering again about this topic and came to the conclusion that this is the no 1 problem in terms of popularity, not streaming or marketing or music choices or gender roles, but just the brevity of the careers...

Personally, I think propping up the same person at the expense of younger talent does as much or even more damage, just like any dishonesty. Imo, the imbalance of the two halves of the season in terms of percieved importance, lack of junior competitions in second half, and the lack of viewing options for Nationals and Challengers hurt more than how many years someone tries to squeak by on rep. Also, lack of team competitions that force the feds to develop more skating disciplines.

Different skaters have different careers and nobody should be forced to stay for the good of the medal count when they obviously have other priorities.

The chances for each skater entering each competition should be more balanced, and we need a more sensible season payment scheme to watch Challengers and Nationals.

Not to mention that ignoring junior sport is what leads to perceived 'shortness' of the competitive career, when it really span ages 13 to 20 for most high achieving skaters. The multi-year stats gathered by @eppen showed that highly successful skaters start winning earlier and leave sport later than the average leet tier.

Overall though, the trouble is that the sport is super-small, with exceptionally little room for growth when someone stays on top for too long. That leads to quite a lot of decent skaters having a lackluster careers not measuring to their potential. Take Kolyada, who was no end of talented, but in terms of achievement he just couldn't break through to the podiums.

Definitely not in favour of propping up anyone!
I totally disagree though about the juniors. Junior years are indeed not part of any actual sports career to me.
I think Kolyada is a good example for someone who's loved by many fans of the sport, even outside of his country, although he never won any major titles. Why - because he has been around for more than 3 senior years. I doubt he would have as many fans if he left the sport at 20 or 22.

Unfortunately, the ability of skaters to have long careers sometimes isn't within their control due to injuries or lack of funding. Injuries can't always be helped, but perhaps a better focus on injury prevention and access to medical professionals and physical therapists could improve things? It would be great to see more funds allocated to promising skaters, but where ideally, should those funds come from? National feds, the ISU, people who pay for livestreams...?

I suppose the question I am trying to ask here is this: how can skaters who want to have long careers be supported in the best possible way?

I agree, that's a big and important question. Of course I don't want to keep anybody in the sport against their will, but to help those that want to achieve it, would be great, even if it's just a smaller effect.

At least when we have fast turn around in women, we got to see a lot more of them...and I felt their popularity wasn't hurt by time in spotlight.

I think it doesn't make already pretty hardcore fans less engaged, but it does not build stars like Simone Biles or Federer/Nadal or long term rivalries like Messi/Ronaldo... and these stars are attracting fans. Often people who are not already into a sport only recognize athletes when they have been in the business for quite some time - if you have many athletes leaving the sport very soon again you will get a certain kind of fans (in the case of the Russian girls the "modern gladiator" fans who don't care about short careers and ever changing girls. But the average person is not drawn to that. They want someone to identify with, to follow for many years, to cherish for years.

 

[lariko]

I think it doesn't make already pretty hardcore fans less engaged, but it does not build stars like Simone Biles or Federer/Nadal or long term rivalries like Messi/Ronaldo... and these stars are attracting fans. Often people who are not already into a sport only recognize athletes when they have been in the business for quite some time - if you have many athletes leaving the sport very soon again you will get a certain kind of fans (in the case of the Russian girls the "modern gladiator" fans who don't care about short careers and ever changing girls. But the average person is not drawn to that. They want someone to identify with, to follow for many years, to cherish for years.

Dunno about others. I will never speak for anyone else. Ever. They can do that themselves very well. But, tbh, if longevity was the thing, the crowds would go to dance. And they don't. They go to singles to see kids jump. And they complain when kids grow up a little and can't jump so good any more.

My heart is always with the young challenger versus a has-been. Youthful ardor, honest enjoyment of one's physical provess and enthusiasm beats the pretentious stuff for me. So, yeah, I prefer juniors, and anyone who doesn't watch juniors is robbing themselves blind due to some prejudice against teens that they don't feel as deeply as adults (BS on every level).

Like, I am happy Hanyu is finally doing the shows to his fans' delight and success, instead of us having to endure his twilight years as a competitor. Malinin did the 4A and put the whole fiasco to rest, good guy.

I don't mind come-backs, but for me it is clearer and clearer that I am not into longevity at the expense of fairness and fun. Figure skating is too demanding onhe body to have people way over 20 skating. One thing figure skating doesn't need is Gracie Gold.

 

[rain]

But how do you define 'successful'? They certainly aren't getting the attention and attendances that V/M and D/W did, even Takahashi (at one time the biggest male star in Japan) dipping into it didn't. For all the quad business and health risks, some of the men's careers are quite long-lasting - Shoma and Jason come straight to mind as the biggest of the current 'uncles' and I believe Chen hasn't formally retired yet. And while yes the women have shorter careers, Kaori for instance has actually been around and in and out of top 10 since 2014 and Bradie since 2018.

There are always outliers. But I think it's worth noting that Jason and Shoma both came up at a time when four quads in a program was not required to win. So for most of their careers they have been doing significantly less (especially Jason, who basically doesn't do any quads. Perhaps that's why he still has his knees and can still skate).

Bradie is injured. Again. I don't think this strengthens your argument. Kaori is the argument that good technique (and not trying huge numbers of quads) can help lead to a long career. I would hope that more women can aspire to something similar.

 

[icewhite]

Dunno about others. I will never speak for anyone else. Ever. They can do that themselves very well. But, tbh, if longevity was the thing, the crowds would go to dance. And they don't. They go to singles to see kids jump. And they complain when kids grow up a little and can't jump so good any more.

My heart is always with the young challenger versus a has-been. Youthful ardor, honest enjoyment of one's physical provess and enthusiasm beats the pretentious stuff for me. So, yeah, I prefer juniors, and anyone who doesn't watch juniors is robbing themselves blind due to some prejudice against teens that they don't feel as deeply as adults (BS on every level).

Like, I am happy Hanyu is finally doing the shows to his fans' delight and success, instead of us having to endure his twilight years as a competitor. Malinin did the 4A and put the whole fiasco to rest, good guy.

I don't mind come-backs, but for me it is clearer and clearer that I am not into longevity at the expense of fairness and fun. Figure skating is too demanding onhe body to have people way over 20 skating. One thing figure skating doesn't need is Gracie Gold.

And maybe that's exactly what would need to change. A real sport, financed often by tax payers, should not favour 13 year olds against 20 year olds. And it should not force many into retirement before they even reach their mid 20s.
I don't enjoy watching children in sports unless it's my own. I also don't think people are "pretentious" or lacking "youthful ardor" just because they are adults, and certainly not when they are in their 20s.
I think it's fun to watch some juniors, but I don't want that to be the focus of my fandom, especially when I know at what expense it comes. I would rather have them develop peacefully and into stable athletes.

 

[SmileHappy34]

It depends on where u start the skaters career. Granted fans tend to look at seniors mainly. The skater career seems very brief.
Doesn't most skaters careers start without public or fan base viewing? Aren't skaters already season skaters by the time they reach seniors ( skating at least 4 years through the skaters national competition of juvenile, intermediate, novice , junior?

The skaters we see are veterans that made it through the ranks . They may not want to stay after winning or fulfilling what the skater wants. I may not understand it. It the skaters life.
Is brevity the skater that showed promise In the lower ranks and Leave

 

[lariko]

Speaking of Kolyada, his career span between 2011 (age 16) to 2018 (age 23) with one come back in 2021 that didn't last. If he quit at age 20-21, he wouldn't have had to struggle so much and overall had more positive impressions from his career, because the fallout of the poor performance in 2018 left him with huge trauma and a baggage of hate.

 

[icewhite]

I'm not sure what exactly could be done. Maybe the amount of jumping needs to be limited. Maybe there needs to be more funding in specific areas. Maybe the competition format needs to be changed... I do not dare to put much hope into the new age limit, although I hope it helps.

I just think that many really popular athletes in this sport are those that have been around on the senior circuit for 8 years plus.

 

[TallyT]

They go to singles to see kids jump. And they complain when kids grow up a little and can't jump so good any more.

But no, I know you were talking about yourself as the 'they' but the general 'they' don't. The audiences at juniors (and I adored watching the juniors, there are several I thought could be shining stars later, if there's an audience left to see them!) were tiny. And the seniors are down a lot from just a couple of years ago because there is not a single skater in the current seniors ranks that is a real superstar, who significant numbers of people will travel and pay to see. FFS, Shoma is WC and his glossed over faults would not be visible to general audiences, whereas his virtues are. Kaori is WC and is feisty and adorable. Chen was unbeaten for quite a stretch there. Malinin is the proclaimed quad god. So why are they not at least Mao/Takahashi/V&M level stars? Why are they skating in half-empty rinks, and to ever smaller streams? Even the mediagenic Tutberidze girls, they have domestic audiences but when there was that show in China - Magic in Ice? - the audience was notable by its scarcity. And watching all these folk online is more trouble than the public seems to think it's worth.

(Re Kolyada, just my opinion but the fact that he didn't break into the top rank is not cause for complaint on his behalf, since 895820575032037 and counting skaters have failed that since the dawn of competition. That's what makes it the top rank. What is cause is the way he was treated by his countrymen for being one of the 895820575032037.

 

[TallyT]

There are always outliers. But I think it's worth noting that Jason and Shoma both came up at a time when four quads in a program was not required to win. So for most of their careers they have been doing significantly less (especially Jason, who basically doesn't do any quads. Perhaps that's why he still has his knees and can still skate).

Bradie is injured. Again. I don't think this strengthens your argument. Kaori is the argument that good technique (and not trying huge numbers of quads) can help lead to a long career. I would hope that more women can aspire to something similar.

But Bradie has had a comparatively long career. We can only wait and see if Levito manages the same.

 

[Mathman]

At least when we have fast turn around in women, we got to see a lot more of them...and I felt their popularity wasn't hurt by time in spotlight.

What I wish is that something could be done to bring back professional skating as a popular entertainment. Back in the day the goal of a female skater was to win a few amateur contests (hopefully a national or world championship or the Olympics) as a teenager to establish her credentials, then sign on with a big time ice show for a long and lucretive carreer. This was the standard model at least from the 1950s to the end of the 1970s.

Janet Lynn was successful as a teenaged amateur and then signed a multi-million dollar contract with Ice Capades which made her the highest-paid female athlete in the word. Dorothy Hamill won the Olympics (she quipped at the time, "It was either get the gold medal and become a millionaire or get silver and go back to my job as a secretay in Chicago"), made a lot of money off merchandizing, and when it was her turn at the big time she actiually bought the Ice Capades. But the show went bankrupt sopn thereafter.

By the end of the1990s the disctinction between "amateur" and "professiona"l (or Olympic elegible) was largely erased, in part because the Olympic movement dropped the concept of "amateurism" and in part because the ISU swooped in to seize control over all skaters and all skating and fit them to its mold.

 

[lariko]

And maybe that's exactly what would need to change. A real sport, financed often by tax payers, should not favour 13 year olds against 20 year olds. And it should not force many into retirement before they even reach their mid 20s.
I don't enjoy watching children in sports unless it's my own. I also don't think people are "pretentious" or lacking "youthful ardor" just because they are adults, and certainly not when they are in their 20s.
I think it's fun to watch some juniors, but I don't want that to be the focus of my fandom, especially when I know at what expense it comes. I would rather have them develop peacefully and into stable athletes.

A real sport favors those who are good at it. It's called fair. By the time they are in their twenties, human beings simply can't do 4 min at min HR of 170 and take the high Gs and repeat injuries and impact on joints. Their bodies lose the shape needed for jumping, except very, very few, that limits body types and ethnicity of those who can compete. So, insisting on 20+ in competition over the teens who are natural at it, ruins health and lives.