Opinion: The brevity of skating careers

[Jeanie19]

Artistry is not an age thing. I watch juniors and some of them are so compelling. Minsol Kwon is a natural performer. Evgenia Medvedeva's W.E. Program from 2015-2016 is so good.
U.S. Juniors Jacob Sanchez and Kirk Haugeto are so entertaining.

Artistry doesn't come with age, it comes from within. But an artistic skater who has longevity like Jason Brown is really impressive.

 

[Mathman]

And very very few people want to watch children/teenagers-only sport.

All sports are basically children's games. A few very talented athletes are able to prolong their adolescence by continuing to play children's games into their twenties and beyomd, and even manage to get paid for it.

If they get paid enough they can prolong their childhood indefinitely. There was a guy on TV yesterday who was a professional arm wrestler. He bragged that he never worked a day in his life but made enough money winning arm-wrestlinhgg contests that he didn't have to.

Why we fans enjoy watching grown men and women playing children's games is another question.

 

[lariko]

Artistry is not an age thing. I watch juniors and some of them are so compelling. Minsol Kwon is a natural performer. Evgenia Medvedeva's W.E. Program from 2015-2016 is so good.
U.S. Juniors Jacob Sanchez and Kirk Haugeto are so entertaining.

Artistry doesn't come with age, it comes from within. But an artistic skater who has longevity like Jason Brown is really impressive.

Totally. Victoria Morozova just made me sigh with how lovely her interprtation is. Along with Kolesnikov who is such a joy. And if they feel like it, and if their bodies can keep up, if they don't have other interests with they do stay around. It's already the case.

So, what's this problem this thread is trying to solve? I call it non-existent.

In fact, what I see is the opposite, it's harder for the younger skaters to get into the big leagues than for the old ones to stay and milk rep.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Well isn't this just an interesting, bold topic. I'll just be over here

 

[Mathman]

Artistry is not an age thing. I watch juniors and some of them are so compelling. Minsol Kwon is a natural performer. Evgenia Medvedeva's W.E. Program from 2015-2016 is so good.
U.S. Juniors Jacob Sanchez and Kirk Haugeto are so entertaining.

Artistry doesn't come with age, it comes from within. But an artistic skater who has longevity like Jason Brown is really impressive.

Artistry may not be an age thing (although artists usually do progress from a stage of exuberant youthful virtuosity to a period of artistic maturity.)

But flexibility is a youth thing. Is anyone as flexible at 25 as they were at 14? I think that is the main reason why in ladies figure skating there are so many promising 14-year-olds, and few to none at 25.

 

[Magill]

I think it's star power. Is Tom Brady a star because of longevity, or could be have retired 10 years earlier and still be a star?

Yuzuru has that star power. I don't think longevity would add or subtract from that.

So I don't have the answer either.

It is the star power indeed. But both stars and their power need time to develop and grow, and grow on the audiences. Otherwise we call them mostly just "one season (time/hit) wonders" ...
Talking about Yuzuru, no matter if we personally like him or not, no matter where we think his power lies or derives from, he does have exceptional star quality, which is just a proven fact, no doubt about that. It was obvious and present already in Sochi when he won not just the gold, but also the crowds, for years to come. Yet.... if he had left after 2014, at 19, having won GPF, Olympic gold and Worlds gold as was the case.... would he still be the superstar he has become, the gold standard (the pun works well on me ) and by far the most popular skater this sport has known for decades?
Can you tell that about Yulia Lipnitskaya, a fellow Sochi gold wonder with truly enormous star quality whose career sadly took a very different turn, although having sort of similar starting point? IF Yulia stayed around on her team gold level, I do not think her missing the individual gold in Sochi would hurt her popularity at all. And yet.... there were other factors in play that make it impossible to put their careers or the impact they had on the sport on any similar level for comparisons now. The time she was around was just too short for her to become the gold standard Yuzuru has grown into.

 

[TallyT]

Artistry doesn't come with age, it comes from within. But an artistic skater who has longevity like Jason Brown is really impressive.

It is and it isn't for me personally. Yes, it is inborn (hellllooooo Mozart!) and is hard to 'learn' if you don't have it, but the depth of maturity and experience matters for me. The same artist (musician, dancer, whatever) will have more authentic artistry in their prime and it's worth waiting around for them.

Others may differ, that's okay. There should be room for both, if the sport wants fans of both.

All sports are basically children's games. A few very talented athletes are able to prolong their adolescence by continuing to play children's games into their twenties and beyomd, and even manage to get paid for it.... why we fans enjoy watching grown men and women playing children's games is another question.

Though, as you say, we enjoy watching grownups play. Unless we are relatives, we rarely haul ourselves off to see the kids themselves doing it

 

[Mathman]

I think it's star power. Is Tom Brady a star because of longevity, or could be have retired 10 years earlier and still be a star?

Yuzuru has that star power. I don't think longevity would add or subtract from that.

People like winners. Tom Brady is a star because he won 7 Super Bowls. Yuzuru Hanyu and Katarina Witt are stars because they won two Olympic gold medals. Irina Rodnina is a star because she won ten world champoionships. Simone Biles .. well, you get the idea.

Of course an athlete has to have a fairly long career to have a chance to achieve these feats..

 

[Diana Delafield]

Well isn't this just an interesting, bold topic. I'll just be over here

Pass the popcorn, I'll join you. Longevity (flexibility courtesy of EDS), but, personally, never had star power at all. I skate for me, not for an audience.

 

[TallyT]

I skate for me, not for an audience.

But if everyone did that, we'd have a sport with the popularity and success of competitive knitting! (I mean, there was a Great British Sewing Bee, but they definitely did it for an audience...)

 

[Mathman]

Actually, out of morbid curiosity, can we get a list of skaters who conjured the sentiment in this thread into being? Whose untimely departure to life beyond GP are we bemoaning here?

I don't think we are feeling sorry for the skaters who have a brief career and then move on to other things. I think we are feeling sorry for ourselves, that we don't get to do our fanboy and fangirl thing for long enough.

 

[Magill]

People like winners. Tom Brady is a star because he won 7 Super Bowls. Yuzuru Hanyu and Katarina Witt are stars because they won two Olympic gold medals. Irina Rodnina is a star because she won ten world champoionships. Simone Biles .. well, you get the idea.

Of course an athlete has to have a fairly long career to have a chance to achieve these feats..

I do not think it explains it at all. There are winners who leave audiences mostly indifferent and uninterested (although yes, some people will root for them as long as they win). There are non-gold-winners whom audiences love and cherish much more despite no gold to show for it.
There are gold winners and there are (super) stars, and they are not necessarily the same persons.
Actually I do tend to believe the growing gap between what the audience loves and what the judges / judging system rewards plays a remarkable role in the current viewership decline, like it or not.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Pass the popcorn, I'll join you. Longevity (flexibility courtesy of EDS), but, personally, never had star power at all. I skate for me, not for an audience.

Cool, here have some.....

 

[gkelly]

First, I think the question of what hurts, helps, is good or bad for, etc. "the sport" has been posed in terms of what is good or bad for its popularity with audiences -- which does translate into income that allows the elite level of the sport to reward its athletes enough to keep the stars around, etc.

But sometimes what is popular with audiences is not necessarily what is best for the integrity of the sport on its own terms as a technical sport that is not about getting balls into goals or even primarily about doing exciting tricks -- or what is best for the well-being of the athletes.

So when asking what's good or bad for the sport, it's best to clarify what's best for fans or casual fans/lay audiences, or the financial bottom line of the federations, or what's best for the athletes or for the fundamental principles of what makes figure skating figure skating.

And a lot of what is popular with audiences is success. Skating tends to be more popular in countries that have stars. And that popularity leads to more support and more kids taking up the sport and some of them themselves becoming stars decade or so later.

Skating is hard on the body and hard on the bank account. Skaters often retire young because one or the other or both of those has given out. That is true in other sports as well, but those are definitely issues in our sport.

If it were more popular, there might be more money coming into the sport from outside and therefore more funding for more skaters to develop to their potential and to continue in the sport. But considering that it started out as a strictly amateur sport, the opportunities for skaters to earn money through their sport in the US or in the west in general might be lower now than 25-30 years ago, but much higher than 40 years ago. And of course much higher recently in Japan than even 20 years ago.

Another issue inherent in skating is the variety and complexity of what it rewards. For many skaters and for many fans, this is exactly the selling point.

This is often referred to as athleticism vs. artistry. There are definitely fans, especially casual fans, who love skating either for the performance qualities but couldn't tell a triple jump from a double or quad, and definitely not a toe loop from a lutz, OR who love the spectacular athletic tricks but cringe at the costumes and music and would take it more seriously without them. Or think they would.

The most diehard fans like most regular posters here enjoy both, in different degrees. But if one thinks that the sport needs to attract more non-fans to become fans by emphasizing athleticism and downplaying artistry, or vice versa, chances are that for every fan gained another one will be lost.

And then there's the other pesky issue that much of what skaters and judges value most is control of the blades and effortless flow across the ice. This is hard to explain to viewers who have never figure skated themselves, and it doesn't come across well on video.

So even if judges and tech panels are 100% competent and honest about scoring what they see according to the values and rules of the sport, most casual viewers will have no idea what that part of the scoring involves or in many cases that it even exists and matters a lot. And even knowledgeable viewers -- fans and even people directly involved in the sport themselves who may have just as much knowledge as the officials on the panels -- will have a different impression of the performances than those who watched it live and up close.

So it's easy for diehard fans and people within the sport to disagree with results -- or with specific scores under IJS. And even easier for less-knowledgeable fans to disagree when they aren't even aware that they're watching a skating contest that includes and values jumping and interpreting music, rather than a jumping and music interpretation contest that happens to take place on ice.

Historically, part of the fun of watching skating had been disagreeing with the judges.

Would the ISU do better to encourage the tendency of lay audiences to take pleasure in knowing better than the experts?

Or would it be better in the long run if there were some way to educate audiences about the picky, hard-to-see details of a very technical and qualitative sport?

Ideally getting more people on the ice with enough lessons at least to start understanding one-foot glides and edges from personal experience would help to build knowledge of the kind that many audiences have of other sports they played as kids or as adults. But skating even at a beginner recreational level can be expensive or impractical, especially in parts of the world without natural ice and with few or no local rinks. So much as I'd love it if everyone who has any interest in watching skating could give it a try themselves -- or else spend some time in training rinks or at local competitions just watching, to see what it takes even to achieve moderate skill levels in this sport -- I recognize that's not likely to happen.

As far as longevity goes, I wonder if there could be a better way for the ISU to allow skaters whose bodies have passed their peak athleticism to compete in a different event where edge skills and performance qualities would take more precedence (solo ice dance maybe? or a separate artistic circuit for singles and pairs that includes jumps and lifts/other pair skills but with greater rewards for quality than for quantity and difficulty -- similar to the kinds of programs that we saw in 1990s pro competitions). Enough different than the current events that they could have separate championships and allow audiences to follow skaters as they transition from junior events to senior elite to a less punishing discipline that favors older bodies. I'm not sure if it would need to have an even higher age limit, or be invitational audience-focused events that allow in only skaters who had already proven themselves as stars. Depending on the requirements of such a discipline, skaters who excel at the blade-to-ice and performance skills at young ages more than at jumping or lifting/being lifted might gravitate to such a discipline right from the start rather than focusing on the tricks-focused disciplines, and this alternative circuit could build its own stars as well as welcoming former Olympic-track stars.

 

[Magill]

As far as longevity goes, I wonder if there could be a better way for the ISU to allow skaters whose bodies have passed their peak athleticism to compete in a different event where edge skills and performance qualities would take more precedence (solo ice dance maybe? or a separate artistic circuit for singles and pairs that includes jumps and lifts/other pair skills but with greater rewards for quality than for quantity and difficulty -- similar to the kinds of programs that we saw in 1990s pro competitions). Enough different than the current events that they could have separate championships and allow audiences to follow skaters as they transition from junior events to senior elite to a less punishing discipline that favors older bodies. I'm not sure if it would need to have an even higher age limit, or be invitational audience-focused events allow in only skaters who had already proven themselves as stars. Depending on the requirements of such a discipline, skaters who excel at the blade-to-ice and performance skills at young ages more than at jumping or lifting/being lifted might gravitate to such a discipline right from the start rather than focusing on the tricks-focused disciplines, and this alternative circuit could build its own stars as well as welcoming former Olympic-track stars.

It is a weird hour here and I will be very honest. With ISU judges? A 10 in PCS for Malinin? His SS better than Fa's?
No, thanks.

 

[icewhite]

Actually, out of morbid curiosity, can we get a list of skaters who conjured the sentiment in this thread into being? Whose untimely departure to life beyond GP are we bemoaning here? Specifics, pls. And let's go on case by case basis.

I have had this thought more often, but it's rarely inspired by "xy should have a longer career".
Now my latest incentive for this thread was simply the huge love Shoma Uno gets. I was reading the reddit threads in addition to this forum and thinking how popular he is among the current skaters and I simply don't think that's just due to his skating - which is mesmerizing, yes, and he has always been popular, but that the amount of love he gets is also (maybe not in your case) imo, due to the fact that people have followed him for a while, that they know his struggles, the time when he was basically coachless, when he seemed lost, and that he has now improved and developed to be able to shine to the fullest.
Also I just had this conversation about Kolyada, one of my favourite skaters ever, and while from your point of view his career since 2018 might not have been worth it, for me and I think many others I think it was, and actually the fact that he "failed" in 2018 might make him a loser in Russia, but all his failures for years, the slight tragedy of never getting a major title despite being such a highly talented athlete with wonderful programs, has made him a fan favourite that I think he would not have become had he ended his career before 2018. He would just have been one of many very talented skaters that don't really make it. Now, despite him not being a "legend" of the sport, his name stands for something.
I have also in the past days again been left wondering again why people are so eager to get Virtaanen to major competitions - he's lovely to watch, but does he really bring so much to the table that others don't? Yet reddit goes crazy (well, mildly crazy) about "uncle doctor" getting his tech mins. Why are people rooting for him so much? Because they know him. They are used to him. When he end his career it will be the end of an era.
Why is Yuzuru a star that people are going CRAZY about? Is it really just his qualities (that he now doubt possesses)? I think the fact that he was even there long enough to become a 2time gold medallist is a factor. He was popular from the start, but his strong fanbase grew with time.

When I was younger I was a very casual fan and I was thrilled every time Michelle Kwan or Plushenko came on the screen, because I knew them. Would it have only been skaters I didn't know I might not even have watched.

I am a football (soccer) fan, but I only saw Lionel Messi when he was already a star. Now it might not be your sport and as a Canadian you might not realize, but on a worldwide skale Messi is one of the biggest stars ever. Why? Would he have had anything close to the status he has today when he would have stopped at 23? Definitely not. Although his early 20s were his best years in terms of results and mesmerizing people. And would Messi be Messi THE superstar without Cristiano Ronaldo? Likely not. And the other way around? No. That was a rivalry that lasted for about 15 years, and it made many of their fans hardcore fans because they could follow a story and argue back and forth and every new match was material for the next discussion to prove who is the greatest. And while many were super annoyed with that, I saw the prizes that people were pilling to pay to see Messi play in Miami or LA, now in the twilight of his career, and it's just crazy. And that's not just because he has this incredible talent, but because his has this almost 20 year long story.

Will figure skating ever get that level of popularity of football with skaters with long careers? Of course not. But they might get just a little bit closer.

So, those were some of the stories and recent thoughts behind my post, not the lack of a long career of specific female skaters.

 

[Magill]

I have had this thought more often, but it's rarely inspired by "xy should have a longer career".
Now my latest incentive for this thread was simply the huge love Shoma Uno gets. I was reading the reddit threads in addition to this forum and thinking how popular he is among the current skaters and I simply don't think that's just due to his skating - which is mesmerizing, yes, and he has always been popular, but that the amount of love he gets is also (maybe not in your case) imo, due to the fact that people have followed him for a while, that they know his struggles, the time when he was basically coachless, when he seemed lost, and that he has now improved and developed to be able to shine to the fullest.
Also I just had this conversation about Kolyada, one of my favourite skaters ever, and while from your point of view his career since 2018 might not have been worth it, for me and I think many others I think it was, and actually the fact that he "failed" in 2018 might make him a loser in Russia, but all his failures for years, the slight tragedy of never getting a major title despite being such a highly talented athlete with wonderful programs, has made him a fan favourite that I think he would not have become had he ended his career before 2018. He would just have been one of many very talented skaters that don't really make it. Now, despite him not being a "legend" of the sport, his name stands for something.
I have also in the past days again been left wondering again why people are so eager to get Virtaanen to major competitions - he's lovely to watch, but does he really bring so much to the table that others don't? Yet reddit goes crazy (well, mildly crazy) about "uncle doctor" getting his tech mins. Why are people rooting for him so much? Because they know him. They are used to him. When he end his career it will be the end of an era.
Why is Yuzuru a star that people are going CRAZY about? Is it really just his qualities (that he now doubt possesses)? I think the fact that he was even there long enough to become a 2time gold medallist is a factor. He was popular from the start, but his strong fanbase grew with time.

When I was younger I was a very casual fan and I was thrilled every time Michelle Kwan or Plushenko came on the screen, because I knew them. Would it have only been skaters I didn't know I might not even have watched.

I am a football (soccer) fan, but I only saw Lionel Messi when he was already a star. Now it might not be your sport and as a Canadian you might not realize, but on a worldwide skale Messi is one of the biggest stars ever. Why? Would he have had anything close to the status he has today when he would have stopped at 23? Definitely not. Although his early 20s were his best years in terms of results and mesmerizing people. And would Messi be Messi THE superstar without Cristiano Ronaldo? Likely not. And the other way around? No. That was a rivalry that lasted for about 15 years, and it made many of their fans hardcore fans because they could follow a story and argue back and forth and every new match was material for the next discussion to prove who is the greatest. And while many were super annoyed with that, I saw the prizes that people were pilling to pay to see Messi play in Miami or LA, now in the twilight of his career, and it's just crazy. And that's not just because he has this incredible talent, but because his has this almost 20 year long story.

Will figure skating ever get that level of popularity of football with skaters with long careers? Of course not. But they might get just a little bit closer.

So, those were some of the stories and recent thoughts behind my post, not the lack of a long career of specific female skaters.

Tennis could be another example, maybe a bit closer as being also a sport for individuals and not for teams, with Federer / Nadal / Djokovic being there for ages and people loving them for ages. And always coming back for more.
As for people going crazy about Yuzuru, I do not think it is mainly about his two Olympic golds although it is obviously a huge part of his legend. Yet it is also about the quality, the beauty and the essence of his skating, his personality, his story, his ability to be relatable for the public, and also this inexplicable IT factor which he obviously has if so many people love him, although no one is able to properly define it. Mind you, according to the stats and in purely objective terms, he became more popular after losing in Beijing than he had been after winning in Korea. Which is a puzzle in itself. So what does it say? Just WHAT does it say?
I do not think gaining another Olympic gold by Nathan would award him with global popularity even somewhat close to that of Yuzu's (and I do appreciate Nathan, just an objective assessment of their respective status and potential). Which should naturally happen if it was just about the number of OGMs. But that's not the case. The true answer lies somewhere else.

 

[TT_Fin]

In many cases it is also a matter of money or/and time. I think it is the same in small feds, a skater must be successful and talented before he/she is able to earn enough only by skating. And as many know the career will not be long, they have plan B and study at the same time. Some picks about interviews of Finnish skaters: Juulia Turkkila said a couple of years ago that she paused her studies because of concentrating to skating and Matthias interrupted his own studies completely. Viveca decided not to continue because of the back injury after she was accepted to the university. Vera Stolt was technically talented and I wondered for a while where she disappeared, but then the fed had an interview and she had turned to professional skater. Many young skaters just disappear from competitions when they have done their matriculation exams, probably concentrate to studies. One skater said in an interview that she had to retire because the family had no money after her father lost his job.

There are also skaters who like to skate as a hobby. Most maybe dreaming about big competitions and olympics, but most realize it is just a dream and very few can reach it. When they move on their own and start to earn their own money, there is no time for so intensive hobby any more. Finland is full of arenas (at winter also plenty of outdoor rinks and natural ice, but they are recommended to use for "serious" figure skating practices" but still skaters get mostly early morning and afternoon times, as hockey takes the best times almost everywhere.

What it comes to Yuzury, he has/had fans who followed him without being interested in skating. When he was in Finland, some of those fans were interviewed "I am not interested in skating, I just go everywhere where he goes", was one middle-aged lady's answer.

 

[SmileHappy34]

The brevity of the skaters career is decided by the skater For many reasons none known by fans. Fans upset if felt career to brief .
The star power associated to the skater is decided by fans and public not necessarily associated with or wins but how the skater reached fans or populace through the skater skating.

 

[Mathman]

As for people going crazy about Yuzuru...

There is no accounting for fandom. People literally swooned in rapture and had to be carried from the venue when Franz Liszt played the piano, or when the Beatles sang "I wanna hold your hand."