Opinion: The brevity of skating careers

[TallyT]

My experience as a spectator has been exactly the opposite. I ofetn wish the skater would would drop the costumed role-playing and just skate.

I love me some beautiful costumes and programs that fire imagination, but I will admit that one of the signs of a great skater for me is that, when they are simply practicing/stroking in UA or other simple sports gear in an empty rink, to tinny canned or even no music, they are also mesmerising.

Doesn't happen often, and not many of them can do it but ohhhh.... it's a moment.

 

[Magill]

Now, let's get back to the question in question.

I still believe there should be room for both the youngsters and the stars (I mentioned Patrick, some of his post-Sochi skates were sublime and won gold. I have a personal soft spot for Voronov, who may not have been in the lofty heights but even in his uncle phase still podiumed in 2018 and satisfying to watch. I adore little Minsol and Minkyu and am following Anthony Paradis where I can, and they are just off the top off my head). Watching someone - hey even someone I like but aren't a huge fan of - grow and mature, their artistry deepen and their skating refine, is wonderful (the number of skaters I have on my HD folders,their career year by year, is rather startling when I look at it).

There should be ways to support all skaters and I think that was what @icewhite was originally asking about (incidentally @icewhite and others, I apologise just a little for my part in the upthread unpleasantness though not for defending). In the end, the market rules even more than the judges, but TPTB know that and should be working on it.

Do not forget Keegan! He was wonderful and well-loved till his last competitive outing at the noble age of 30!
Joining apologies to @icewhite for my bit in derailing but not for defending.
Plus shouting a thank you to the mods![

 

[rabidline]

I am not sure if you really follow tennis because it just does not work this way at all. They lose in one tournament, they move to the next one, very often just next week. There are lots and lots of tournaments on different levels and of various kinds, and players are required to take part in certain minimum number of them. It is very much like you had Challenger and Grand Prix series spread in many layers over the bigger part of the year.

Yes, but the next tournament that happens the next week has a completely different context and weight from the previous one in tennis. A Slam have different stakes than a Masters 1000 than a 500 tourmament than 250 tournament than a Challenger. When a player lost in a slam, sure, they can go play a 250 the next week and win it without losing a set. But watchers know that a 250 has a completely different importance and audience than a slam.

Break Point seem to have made unfortunate choices on what to focus on, exactly because of that nature in tennis. In F1, every race weighs the same. Same points offered, same qualification process done, same teams participating, same "cast" whether they finish first or last in the previous race. So there's less difficulty in focusing on the same cast week in and week out and building storylines from that, since they will always be there and the overall stakes remain the same. While in tennis, they did have some luck with Iga and Ons. But they are just two people among the many people followed in that series, and the access to them were also fractured, but that's likely because the player only allows the series to follow them in certain points of the season, which again is fine but the fractured footage may have been difficult to put together with less context.

This is why I think whoever wants to make a Netflix FS series has to figure out how to make a coherent product out of it from F1 and Tennis, I think it's probably better to start from covering a series of competitions that has similar stakes that's easier to make sense rather than the full season with the competitions meaning differently for each skater. Like the domestic road to Nationals for certain countries, or the GP series culminating in GPF.

 

[Magill]

Yes, but the next tournament that happens the next week has a completely different context and weight from the previous one in tennis. A Slam have different stakes than a Masters 1000 than a 500 tourmament than 250 tournament than a Challenger. When a player lost in a slam, sure, they can go play a 250 the next week and win it without losing a set. But watchers know that a 250 has a completely different importance and audience than a slam.

Break Point seem to have made unfortunate choices on what to focus on, exactly because of that nature in tennis. In F1, every race weighs the same. Same points offered, same qualification process done, same teams participating, same "cast" whether they finish first or last in the previous race. So there's less difficulty in focusing on the same cast week in and week out and building storylines from that, since they will always be there. While in tennis, they did have some luck with Iga and Ons. But they are just two people among the many people followed in that series, and the access to them were also fractured.

This is why I think whoever wants to make a Netflix FS series has to figure out how to make a coherent product out of it

But in FS you have very similar situation. You have a GP every week but there are different skaters in each one of them, and each skater competes just once or maximum twice in the whole series. No telling if they make it to GP Final unless they are, let's say, current TOP3.
I do think a good crew could have made a very interesting documentary out of Break Point. They failed but this is not tennis's fault.

 

[rabidline]

Now, let's get back to the question in question.

I still believe there should be room for both the youngsters and the stars (I mentioned Patrick, some of his post-Sochi skates were sublime and won gold. I have a personal soft spot for Voronov, who may not have been in the lofty heights but even in his uncle phase still podiumed in 2018 and satisfying to watch. I adore little Minsol and Minkyu and am following Anthony Paradis where I can, and they are just off the top off my head). Watching someone - hey even someone I like but aren't a huge fan of - grow and mature, their artistry deepen and their skating refine, is wonderful (the number of skaters I have on my HD folders,their career year by year, is rather startling when I look at it).

There should be ways to support all skaters and I think that was what @icewhite was originally asking about (incidentally @icewhite and others, I apologise just a little for my part in the upthread unpleasantness though not for defending). In the end, the market rules even more than the judges, but TPTB know that and should be working on it.

I don't think there's anything stopping fans to enjoy the sport and respect all skaters competing in it, but I don't think you can ask fans to like and support all skaters. Because every fan has their own preferences and biases, don't they? And you can't force them to like certain skaters just because they worked hard or is more mature or have more natural talent since young or skate in a way you think is more pleasing on the eye or can land more difficult jumps, or any other reasons. Taste is very subjective. Some skaters will have more fans than others, which is something normal, but it doesn't mean the skaters with less fans can't strive to continue skating and achieving more of their goals in skating. Fans don't have to like them, but at least they can respect the determination and will to work and achieve more.

I think sometimes the "like" by fans can work as a double edged sword too on the skaters when the fans don't respect the skaters they like. Of course as fans when we support a skater we want everything good for them. But without respect and even paying more attention to the skaters themselves, fans turn their unhappiness when something goes wrong to blame others, instead of reflecting more on how the skaters had approached their skate, how they have prepared, and other things.

 

[rabidline]

But in FS you have very similar situation. You have a GP every week but there are different skaters in each one of them, and each skater competes just once or maximum twice in the whole series. No telling if they make it to GP Final unless they are, let's say, current TOP3.
I do think a good crew could have made a very interesting documentary out of it.

Yeah, but the GP series on its own plus GPF as its culmination works well as a sports series with stakes at hand (GPF qualification and win) and a clear way to reach it that people can understand (finishing at least on the podium in 2 assignments and getting more points than other skaters). That can be the main narrative for the usual contenders and promising challengers.

And then the secondary narrative can be what the GP invitation means to skaters who returned from injuries and missing a full season (think Yuma and Wakaba from this season), skaters who come from a smaller federation that a GP invitation and medal can mean many things such as basis to get funding and chance to get points for World Standing or historical achievements (think Shaidorov winning the first GP medal for Kazakhstan in 7 years). the difficulty of preparation, traveling and jet lag issues in the GP series (think Adam and his back to back GPs), skaters from big fed countries who only have 1 assignment and what they hope for next year (need to perform well in the GP and domestically to hopefully get invited to more GP- think Rino who is a pinch hitter medalist and only gets 1 assignment), etc.

 

[lariko]

Messing was saying it's his last competition for 2 years prior to every competition. He tried very hard to signal that he has other priorities in life, like his growing family. I was always uncomfortable that the fed wanted him to skate when he seemed to want to be a dad and a husband. At least that was my continius impression after he suffered a personal tragedy of losing his brother.

 

[Magill]

Yeah, but the GP series on its own plus GPF as its culmination works well as a sports series with stakes at hand (GPF qualification and win) and a clear way to reach it that people can understand (finishing at least on the podium in 2 assignments and getting more points than other skaters). That can be the main narrative for the usual contenders and promising challengers.

And then the secondary narrative can be what the GP invitation means to skaters who returned from injuries and missing a full season (think Yuma and Wakaba from this season), skaters who come from a smaller federation that a GP invitation can mean many things such as basis to get funding and chance to get points for World Standing, the difficulty of preparation, traveling and jet lag issues in the GP series (think Adam and his back to back GPs), skaters from big fed countries who only have 1 assignment and what they hope for next year (need to perform well in the GP and domestically to hopefully get invited to more GP), etc.

Tennis season ends in WTA Finals or ATP Finals for women and men respectively. The road takes longer and is more complicated but ...
it is all dramatically Off Topic anyway so let's just leave it here.

 

[TallyT]

I don't think there's anything stopping fans to like figure skating as a sport and respect all skaters competing in it, but I don't think you can ask fans to like and support all skaters. Because every fan has their own preferences and biases, don't they? And you can't force them to like certain skaters just because they worked hard or is more mature or have more natural talent since young or skate in a way you think is more pleasing on the eye or can land more difficult jumps, or any other reasons. Taste is very subjective. Some skaters will just have more fans than others, which is something normal, but it doesn't mean the skaters with less fans can't strive to continue skating and achieving more of their goals in skating.

Oh no, I am not suggesting that we every one of us must like every skater for one minute - I don't so it would be presumptuous - or support them all in a fannish way, though I do think we can support in the context of respect their right to compete or not as they and their placings and feds see it. But what I think is that we can all recognise that there are skaters of all types and ages and backgrounds for all tastes, and fans for all types and ages and backgrounds of skaters, and that is how it should be in an individualistic, unique, artistic sport. Longevity should be supported, it does good for the sport, builds loyalty and emotional attachment (and financial benefits, again this is an expensive sport. Kazuki was quite honest about his search for sponsors, who as I understand it came when he'd built a profile.) and the fan base. Shooting star youngsters also should be supported. It's not an either/or zero sum game.

 

[rabidline]

Tennis season ends in WTA Finals or ATP Finals for women and men respectively. The road takes longer ans is more complicated but ...
it is all dramatically Off Topic anyway so let's just leave it here.

Exactly: the size of the tennis season itself is massive so I think focusing on its big picture with fractured narrative because of the limited access to players was... always going to be boring, because you just can't fill in the blanks with what actually happens when the actual season is playing out and has a completely different vibe to the series. Heck even when we talk about WTA and ATP finals, you know there's a difference between those who qualifies there and also were Slam champions in that season, and those who earned enough points because of the quantity of competitions entered despite not winning the big titles. That kind of insight is important to be presented too for more context.

I think it's a teeny bit on topic because one of the things talked about is how some skaters are more popular and loved than others. This kind of Netflix series can create breakthrough stars in the sport if made coherently with an easy to understand narrative that fans can root for.

 

[rabidline]

But what I think is that we can all recognise that there are skaters of all types and ages and backgrounds for all tastes, and fans for all types and ages and backgrounds of skaters, and that is how it should be in an individualistic, unique, artistic sport. Longevity should be supported, it does good for the sport, builds loyalty and emotional attachment (and financial benefits, again this is an expensive sport. Kazuki was quite honest about his search for sponsors, who as I understand it came when he'd built a profile.) and the fan base. Shooting star youngsters also should be supported, and for them support does include watching even closer for health and pressure worries.

Basically, respect all skaters competing in this sport, and not just the convenient, "underdog" ones because they're not threats

 

[TallyT]

Basically, respect all skaters competing in this sport, and not just the convenient, "underdog" ones because they're not threats

Nah, respect those who earn respect, even when they don't win

 

[TallyT]

I think it's a teeny bit on topic because one of the things talked about is how some skaters are more popular and loved than others. This kind of Netflix series can create breakthrough stars in the sport if made coherently with an easy to understand narrative that fans can root for.

Okay folks with a gift for writing - get writing and pitching! (I think Netflix or Disney is a bit ambitious but hey, the latter keeps trying to make me watch something called 'The Ice Princess' by promising 'a hunky boy who drives the Zamboni' so anything's possible, especially if we are talking reality tv.)

 

[rabidline]

Nah, respect those who earn respect, even when they don't win

See, this is exactly what I mean when it's not possible to expect people to like and support all skaters, when even respect to athletes and competitors (not as a person you know personally) is given conditionally. "Earning" respect in sports is also a taste and perspective issue, when to me it's just a basic decency granted for everyone who enters competitions and is willing to play by the rules to compete and accept all risks and rewards that comes with competing*. You don't have to like them as people to respect them as competitors. You don't even know them personally (unless you do).

*) obviously different with people who are charged or under an ongoing legal investigation for committing a crime or suspected of committing a crime.

 

[TallyT]

See, this is exactly what I mean when it's not possible to expect people to like and support all skaters, when even respect is given conditionally. "Earning" respect in sports is also a taste and perspective issue, when to me it's just a basic decency granted for everyone who enters competitions and is willing to play by the rules to compete. You don't have to like them to respect them. You don't even know them personally (unless you do).

I agreed with you!

 

[rabidline]

I agreed with you!

Then, please explain what kind of skaters you feel have "earned" your respect, and what kind of skaters who don't (unless they're doping or suspected of doping or have committed crimes or are suspected of committing crimes).

This can be useful too for the thread as this can be a reference on how other skaters can make an effort to get respect.

 

[Magill]

Exactly: the size of the tennis season itself is massive so I think focusing on its big picture with fractured narrative because of the limited access to players was... always going to be boring, because you just can't fill in the blanks with what actually happens when the actual season is playing out and has a completely different vibe to the series. Heck even when we talk about WTA and ATP finals, you know there's a difference between those who qualifies there and also were Slam champions in that season, and those who earned enough points because of the quantity of competitions entered despite not winning the big titles. That kind of insight is important to be presented too for more context.

I think it's a teeny bit on topic because one of the things talked about is how some skaters are more popular and loved than others. This kind of Netflix series can create breakthrough stars in the sport if made coherently with an easy to understand narrative that fans can root for.

Honestly, I would prefer stars to be made on the ice and not through the Netflix product placement department

 

[Magill]

Okay folks with a gift for writing - get writing and pitching! (I think Netflix or Disney is a bit ambitious but hey, the latter keeps trying to make me watch something called 'The Ice Princess' by promising 'a hunky boy who drives the Zamboni' so anything's possible, especially if we are talking reality tv.)

Me too! Actually I watched it years ago, still on Disney channel, before Disney Plus even came into being. How do I tell them...?

 

[rabidline]

Honestly, I would prefer stars to be made on the ice and not through the Netflix product placement department

The stars are still going to be made on the ice. Netflix can't ask the competitions to be redone when whoever they are following splatted on the ice, favorites or not. But when more people are exposed to skating through different ways, it can increase the possibility of new audience finding skaters who they can relate to and root for more than the usual top stars / skaters who are there for longer than others, and/or follow skating for different reasons compared to the existing fans.

I think the hoped goal should be like F1: the winners are still winning, but there are attention to drivers who have great personalities and work ethic that was harder to notice before because of the reputation of being in the mid or bottom level teams with no chance of winning.

 

[Mathman]

One of the signs of a great skater for me is that, when they are simply practicing/stroking in UA or other simple sports gear in an empty rink, to tinny canned or even no music, they are also mesmerising.

Doesn't happen often, and not many of them can do it but ohhhh.... it's a moment.

Back in the days of 6.0 scoring -- maybe not as much now -- "winning the practice" was a goal for most top skaters. Get the audience on your side, plus the judges often attended the practices to get a (precoinceived) notion of what to expect in the actual performance, making it easier to judge whaterher the performance matched the promise or fell short.

Audience members bought all-event tickets just so they could get in on the full experience.