Opinion: The brevity of skating careers

[lariko]

Never heard of it.

Tutberidze complained successfully after SP that Murav'ieva skated over time and should have a penalty of -1 for her score. That put Scherbakova in a more advantageous position in the Free, in the top 3. Despite not deciding Olympic selections, since Murav'ieva was under age, it could have had an impact in a different situation. Plus, visibility of Sherbakova not being in top 3 in RusNats... yeah.

Plushenko complained unsuccessfully about edges picked in Trusova skating during the RusNats, and had to (anecdotally) be sat down by Lakernik to look at the edge on the Flip (I think).

While these may look like quarrelsome and meddlesome things, the truth is, judges make mistakes, judges are bias, and the athletes wiping the spit off their face and hoping that seniority will help later on is tragic.

After GP in France, RusFed wrote a complaint letter to the ISU about edges for Zagitova (iirc).

As for reversal of the results long-term, Jim Thrope's 1912 result was revised in 1913 to invalidate his win on a flimsy pretext and because of racial injustice, one year after the result was posted in the Olympics. The result was revised again, in 1982, which made Thrope a co-winner of a gold medal. Only in 2022, 100 years after the event, he was declared a sole and rightful winner.

 

[lariko]

Also, the judging too biased towards PCS? Lol. If you want to erase PCS completely, like you have stated you want to, yes, then any role PCS play is of course too big in comparison. But it should be 50%!

My post shows PCS calculations and adjustments with as much bias removed as possible, not being erased.

Plus, dealing with the discrepancy on the PCS proration when it doesn't meet the justification offered and is misogynists in simply assuming that men's tech score will always be better.

Men's factors are 1.67 and 3.33 for PCS, while women's are 1.33 and 2.67.

However, if men do not have the tech score to justify the flat rate jump in PCS and/or when the women do, it is sexist and leads to over-appreciation of the PCS for men with low tech.

I mean, what's the point of asking for opinions only to pervert them and bash people for having them? I put my 20 years of expertise as a regulator into this post.

 

[icewhite]

Have you even read my post? It's shows PCS calculations and adjustments with as much bias removed as possible, not being erased. Plus, dealing with the discrepancy on the PCS proration when it doesn't meet the justification offered and is misogynists in simply assuming that men's tech score will always be better.

Men's factors are 1.67 and 3.33 for PCS, while women's are 1.33 and 2.67.

However, if men do not have the tech score to justify the flat rate jump in PCS and/or when the women do, it is sexist and leads to over-appreciation of the PCS for men with low tech.

You stated that in another post. Not sure whether you have changed your mind, but that's what I was referring to.

 

[lariko]

You stated that in another post. Not sure whether you have changed your mind, but that's what I was referring to.

I am confused. Can you quote specifically the sentence where I said PCSs should be erased fully?

 

[mrrice]

For me, skating is a lot like gymnastics. It is a high intensity sport that takes its toll on the body. Look at Simone Biles. She is considered one of, if not the greatest, female gymnasts of all time. She's only 26 years old and she's talking about retiring.

 

[lariko]

I mean, let's take a look at how the PCSs are being scored nowadays.

Example:

Judge No.3

Ms. Florence VUYLSTEKER

FRA

According to Ms. Florence of...wait for it...France!...in short program:

Miura: 6.75, 6.50 and 8.0 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 9.0).
Sato: 7.0, 6.75 and 8.25 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.75).
Shimada: 5.25, 5.0, 6.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.0 to 8.50).
Rizzo: 6.75, 6.75, 7.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 8.75).

Aymoz: 8.75, 8.75 and 8.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.0 to 9.0).

So, did Ms. Florence there took a look and though, ay, caramba, it looks like I'm bias and love Kevin far too much! Let's see how she is doing in the free skate...

Miura: 6.75, 6.75 and 8.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 9.25).
Sato: 6.50, 6.50 and 8.50 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.75).
Shimada: 7.50, 6.75, 8.0 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.25).
Rizzo: 7.50, 7.0, 7.25 (every non-French judge gave 8.25 to 8.75).

Aymoz: 9.50, 9.50 and 9.50 (every non-French judge gave 8.50 to 9.50).

More of the same, eh, Ms. Florence?

And you are telling me this is somehow Sato's fault that he didn't qualify and Aymoz did?

 

[icewhite]

I am confused. Can you quote specifically the sentence where I said PCSs should be erased fully?

No I can't, I don't know where it was.

I mean, let's take a look at how the PCSs are being scored nowadays.

Example:

Judge No.3

Ms. Florence VUYLSTEKER

FRA

According to Ms. Florence of...wait for it...France!...in short program:

Miura: 6.75, 6.50 and 8.0 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 9.0).
Sato: 7.0, 6.75 and 8.25 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.75).
Shimada: 5.25, 5.0, 6.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.0 to 8.50).
Rizzo: 6.75, 6.75, 7.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 8.75).

Aymoz: 8.75, 8.75 and 8.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.0 to 9.0).

So, did Ms. Florence there took a look and though, ay, caramba, it looks like I'm bias and love Kevin far too much! Let's see how she is doing in the free skate...

Miura: 6.75, 6.75 and 8.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 9.25).
Sato: 6.50, 6.50 and 8.50 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.75).
Shimada: 7.50, 6.75, 8.0 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.25).
Rizzo: 7.50, 7.0, 7.25 (every non-French judge gave 8.25 to 8.75).

Aymoz: 9.50, 9.50 and 9.50 (every non-French judge gave 8.50 to 9.50).

More of the same, eh, Ms. Florence?

And you are telling me this is somehow Sato's fault that he didn't qualify and Aymoz did?

I don't even know what you want to tell me here in the context of this discussion. It was very tight today and I don't like such situations, it could have gone the other direction as well. But well, that happens. Overall I don't feel the scores of these events were wrong or unreasonable, no matter if the French judge judged unfairly. I don't feel that Sato overall was robbed. So it was a decision on the edge, and yes, if he was stepping up his levels game, which he might very well in the future, he would be in a better position.

 

[TT_Fin]

Our local commentator is the highest level judge what judge can be. He can tell immediately what goes wrong, for example underrotated jumps. Sometimes he says "this kind of things are difficult, I am happy I must no be in the jury now" when there are things like Matteo's when he forgot to do two different moves in choreo seq. He said "this lasts because judges try to find the another move, judges always think the benefit of a skater in situations like this". What forum members write are mostly opinions, what he says bases on knowledge, long experience and education and tests in judging. It is a big difference.
Edit. I think I must add Mika is not aftaid to say also if local skaters needs to improve something and he sees also locals skaters' underrotations and missing levels.

 

[4everchan]

Our local commentator is the highest level judge what judge can be. He can tell immediately what goes wrong, for example underrotated jumps. Sometimes he says "this kind of things are difficult, I am happy I must no be in the jury now" when there are things like Matteo's when he forgot to do two different moves in choreo seq. He said "this lasts because judges try to find the another move, judges always think the benefit of a skater in situations like this". What forum members write are mostly opinions, what he says bases on knowledge, long experience and education and tests in judging. It is a big difference.

I have heard that several times too.. Judges always try to reward and favour the skaters instead of punishing them... Unfortunately, sometimes, there is too much rewarding

 

[Jeanie19]

I have heard that several times too.. Judges always try to reward and favour the skaters instead of punishing them... Unfortunately, sometimes, there is too much rewarding

Certainly the Georgian coach has been guilty of this

 

[Moon322]

My heart is always with the young challenger versus a has-been. Youthful ardor, honest enjoyment of one's physical provess and enthusiasm beats the pretentious stuff for me.

Like, I am happy Hanyu is finally doing the shows to his fans' delight and success, instead of us having to endure his twilight years as a competitor. Malinin did the 4A and put the whole fiasco to rest, good guy.

I don't mind come-backs, but for me it is clearer and clearer that I am not into longevity at the expense of fairness and fun. Figure skating is too demanding onhe body to have people way over 20 skating. One thing figure skating doesn't need is Gracie Gold.

With your logic you should cheer for Kao, Yuma and Shun instead of the veteran Shoma Uno, who only overshadows the young talents these days. He went to two Olympics, won two medals - thanks to the overscoring of the judges -, it's time to move on and give opportunities to others as well.

Or this only applies for those skaters who you dislike because they are a better skater than your favorite?

 

[lariko]

With your logic you should cheer for Kao, Yuma and Shun instead of the veteran Shoma Uno, who only overshadows the young talents these days. He went to two Olympics, won two medals - thanks to the overscoring of the judges -, it's time to move on and give opportunities to others as well.

Or this only applies for those skaters who you dislike because they are a better skater than your favorite?

I would fondly remember Uno, always, but if he is not skating good enough, he shouldn't win. I thought that he should have been 3rd in China. I said so at the time so I was consistent. Until China, Uno skated well. I always want people to get what they skated for, independently how much I like them. For me, it's more important than anything else. If Uno bombs in Japan, I wouldn't want them to fudge his scores to push him into final.

I very much cheer for Miura, though he is Junior World champion and Sato. Sato being in first wouldn't have blocked Miura's GPF assignment, and would have been more fair. However, Sato in first would have put Sato and Miura into final, leaving Aymoz out. That would have been fair.

Kagiyama is not a newcomer, he is an Olympic and world medallist.

 

[lariko]

No I can't, I don't know where it was.



I don't even know what you want to tell me here in the context of this discussion. It was very tight today and I don't like such situations, it could have gone the other direction as well. But well, that happens. Overall I don't feel the scores of these events were wrong or unreasonable, no matter if the French judge judged unfairly. I don't feel that Sato overall was robbed. So it was a decision on the edge, and yes, if he was stepping up his levels game, which he might very well in the future, he would be in a better position.

Because in this discussion I am told to rely on the opinions of the professionals and those who supposedly able to appreciate the nuisance that I can't. And that's what those people do, blatantly fix the scores. When a single judge like that can push their favored skater through into the final, that's a problem. This judge was obviously underscoring every skater who was tied with Aymoz for the place in the final, and I think it's pretty obvious that her underscoring served two purposes: that Sato (or Rizzo) doesn't go into first and that Sato's score didn't exceed Aymoz' in America.

When it is so easy to see the specialists doing things like that, I don't believe a word they--or those who agree with them--are saying about scoring.

I believe that fair scoring should have resulted in Sato being in the final, and Shaidorov making Sub list. I mean, I should probably be just grateful Malinin pulled through somehow, but given the judging, I am starting to wonder if they let him podium. Seniority wise, he would be the last.

 

[4everchan]

Ummm, I'm now confused. Shun beat Kevin last night, well and truly yes, but the fact that the latter is now in the final, as I understood it, has nothing to do with PCS, TES or any alphabet soup we have, but simply because he came third and Shun had to beat Kao to secure a place, because of the respective placement points in their previous GPs?

Have I misunderstood the rules?

a bit. Shun and Kévin are tied with 24 points. They are also tied on the first tiebreaker (2nd place finish) The second tie-breaker is the cumulative points from both events. Kévin edged Shun by a l 9 points margin which is pretty much 4.5 points per competition... Considering his PCS advantage is quite substantial, that brings up some alphabet soup discussion.
I tend to be a bit more pragmatic. Shun simply shouldn't have doubled his 3s. Skaters can only control what they put on the ice. The rest is in the judges' hands.. so don't give them any opportunity to keep you down is what a skater should do.

 

[lariko]

a bit. Shun and Kévin are tied with 24 points. They are also tied on the first tiebreaker (2nd place finish) The second tie-breaker is the cumulative points from both events. Kévin edged Shun by a small 3 points margin which is pretty much 1.5 points per competition... Considering his PCS advantage is quite substantial, that brings up some alphabet soup discussion.
I tend to be a bit more pragmatic. Shun simply shouldn't have doubled his 3s. Skaters can only control what they put on the ice. The rest is in the judges' hands.. so don't give them any opportunity to keep you down is what a skater should do.

Aymoz wasn't perfect in SkAm either, and only had one quad, and still somehow had a higher score than Sato in Finland, despite the season progressing. Curious, ain't it...of course, it's all Sato's fault. Literally, if he didn't double his triple, that French judge wouldn't have ever lowered his PS just a little bit more and wouldn't have given Aymoz all 10s to compensate...uh-huh. It really helped Shaidorov not to double anything. He is in the final...oh, wait!

 

[4everchan]

Aymoz wasn't perfect in SkAm either, and only had one quad, and still somehow had a higher score than Sato in Finland. Curious, ain't it...of course, it's all Sato's fault. Literally, if he didn't double his triple, that French judge wouldn't have lowered his PS just a little bit more and wouldn't have given Aymoz all 10s to compensate...uh-huh.

The French judge scores were probably all thrown away. I am not saying it's Shun's fault at all... I am saying that skaters have part of the responsibility as well. One can only control what they do on the ice. BTW : I wanted Shun to win it... so that would have been my call But I understand very well, for having seen Aymoz live (never was a fan until I saw him at ACI) why he has a PCS advantage

 

[lariko]

Or my second favorite in judging by the professionals able to see every nuance this season, Fa's FS in China where he is hanging on scoring higher than his basically skate of a lifetime in France, a week prior.

Can we just have Russians back, pls? It's not like integrity is stellar anyway w/o them.

 

[lariko]

The French judge scores were probably all thrown away. I am not saying it's Shun's fault at all... I am saying that skaters have part of the responsibility as well. One can only control what they do on the ice. BTW : I wanted Shun to win it... so that would have been my call But I understand very well, for having seen Aymoz live (never was a fan until I saw him at ACI) why he has a PCS advantage

I seen Aymoz live twice and also Sato, twice. Nope, don't see the PCS advantage that is big enough to overhshadow tech. Bit have soft knees, both are fast on ice and flexible. Yeah, Aymoz is a little better at projecting. But Sato is a performer as well, with quite a bit of refinement and good movement throughout of the upper body and arms.

 

[lariko]

But that's even beyond the point. Isn't it obvious that the French judge openly and cheerfully fixing the score? And ya'all are okay with that so long as Aymoz makes the final?

 

[4everchan]

I seen Aymoz live twice and also Sato, twice. Nope, don't see the PCS advantage that is big enough to overhshadow tech. Bit have soft knees, both are fast on ice and flexible. Yeah, Aymoz is a little better at projecting. But Sato is a performer as well, with quite a bit of refinement and good movement throughout of the upper body and arms.

But obviously, some judges don't see it the same as you do, same with fans. Sato here lost quite a lot of points on spins too. In the end, both skaters are great skaters. Both of them deserve a spot in the finals. One of them had to come short. It could have gone either way really as people, fans and judges, have different perceptions. This is sport. This is what happens. Rules. For instance, LaLa didn't get a spot for worlds last year yet they are firmly top ten in the world. Just bad luck for them that had NOTHING to do with them.