Opinion: The brevity of skating careers | Page 18 | Golden Skate

Opinion: The brevity of skating careers

So if judging isn't stopping skaters from long careers, what is?🤔
Life, and we just have to accept that. There is no remedy for it, and shouldn't be. It's not needed to enjoy skating; and the juniors were extended so here we go, people want longer careers, they can now follow the skaters for longer. It's their problem that they think that the skater changes dramatically the night they turn 17. Where is the problem?

But bad judging and bias...we don't have to and it can/should be fixed. Because that's actually a problem.

Skaters not being able to compete because they can't get visas?

A problem.

Skaters who can't compete because their luggage ain't there?

A problem.

Skaters made to go on ice when they are injured?

A problem.

A referee watching a skater break on ice without stopping the program?

A problem.

Ignoring a positive test for a forbidden substance use?

A problem.

Coach gaslighting skaters not to trust their body?

A problem.

Length of career though?

Not a problem.
 
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Skaters not being able to compete because they can't get visas?

A problem.
This is true. I remember back in 2002, the up and comer U.S. lady was Ann Patrice McDonnogh. Never heard of her? Here's why. After winning the 2002 Junior World Championship she was ready for the big time. She got second place (to Michelle Kwan) in seniors at 2002 Skate America, then it was off to her second event, Cup of Russia, with every hope of making the Grand Prix final.

But when she got to Paris, she and her mother, inexperienced travellers, discovered that their visas were not in order for the connecting flight to Moscow. They went back home in dejection. and AP retired the next year. To its credit, I believe that the USFSA determined to offer better support and guidance to young travellers after after that.
 
Life, and we just have to accept that. There is no remedy for it, and shouldn't be. It's not needed to enjoy skating; and the juniors were extended so here we go, people want longer careers, they can now follow the skaters for longer. It's their problem that they think that the skater changes dramatically the night they turn 17. Where is the problem?

But bad judging and bias...we don't have to and it can/should be fixed. Because that's actually a problem.

Skaters not being able to compete because they can't get visas?

A problem.

Skaters who can't compete because their luggage ain't there?

A problem.

Skaters made to go on ice when they are injured?

A problem.

A referee watching a skater break on ice without stopping the program?

A problem.

Ignoring a positive test for a forbidden substance use?

A problem.

Coach gaslighting skaters not to trust their body?

A problem.

Length of career though?

Not a problem.


The OP asked what can we do to support skaters who want to continue. So the question is not, do I think that figure skating needs skaters with longer careers or do I think it's a problem. The question is, what can we do to support those skaters who want that longer career. It is not a given with life, and we should do what we can to support the skaters who could continue.

I agree with the list of other issues and I think they would all make great, separate threads.

It is appalling that skating referees do not think they have the power to stop a comp where a skater is clearly injured. Skaters should never be gaslighted by coaches about how they are feeling (semi-related, Kaitlin Hawayek said part of learning to recover from a concussion is learning to say, I can't do full runthroughs today. I can't do this that and the other today. Luckily according to her the coaches at IAM listen and support).

Donovan has lost luggage *twice* this season. Twice! He competed in borrowed skates:eek2:
ETA: All hail Oliver Praetorius, a 🫅 among skaters, for lending his skates to a competitor in the same comp👏

I still remember Misha Ge not competing at the GP, I think twice, because he could not get visas. To the extent that visa issue is related to politics today, I will not discuss here.

All of the great points are not related to what can be done to support a skater who wants to continue skating. If a skater wants to continue their career, and is discouraged from some outside issue that could be remedied, that is in fact a problem.

I would like to hear from skaters what we could do to help.
 
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You can measure anything,
I think this claim is worth revisiting.

Here are the criteria for judging program components.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/31474-program-components-chart/file

Under “Presentation” we see, for example, “expressiveness and projection.” Earlier versions of this document used the language “the skater establishes an invisible connection with the audience.” Can this be measured?

Well, we could install applause meters and the skaters are awarded points in proportion to the recorded decibels. Or we could go high tech and fit the audience with heart monitors. The skater wins who elevates the aggregate heart rate the most.

Of course we could just eliminate this bullet point altogether as being vague and not readily measurable. But we want to include this sort of thing (entertainment value, perceptions of “artistry”.) in figure skating.

Moving on to the question of judging the judges by applying statistical means to measure how well their marks match those of the majority of experts, here is the ISU document about the workings of the “Officials Assessment Commission” regarding “Evaluation of Judging – Assessments for the Figure Skating Branch.”

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/31545-isu-communication-2583/file

Every year a few judges are so egregiously out of line as to run afoul of the ISU, but in general a judge would have to be way, way off before any action is taken. For the most part, a cheating judge must be caught by actual (non-statistical) evidence – Mr. Balkov is caught on video tapping his toe to indicate what scores the other judges should award to ice dance performances, Mme La Gougne tearfully and publically confesses, Yes I did it – Didier made me.

The suggestion that “majority of opinions” ought to constitute evidence of whether a judge is doing his duty, this actually is a point in favor of the old ordinal system as opposed to “add up the points.’ It is not so easy to decide that a skating performance contains 6.25 points worth of “Expressiveness and Projection.” But it is usually pretty straightforward to opine, “this performance was better than that one, with the other coming in third." In the case of performances that are close in quality, majority (of the judging panel) rules.

In general, when we use statistical methods, we must be careful to state exactly what it is we are studying. If we use statistics to measure the extent to which h a judge’s opinions match those of the the majority of experts, well, that is what we are measuring. To add on the emotionally charged value judgment “and if not, then the judge is not exercising due diligence,” this is a technical quibble using the word “diligence” in a specialized way rather than in its ordinary meaning in discursive English.

Of course, dishonest people will find a way to weave their nefarious plots no matter what the system.
 
Re Shaidorov and Mark's comments.
Mark is nice with a lot of people ;) and he is a fan just like all of us... and just like the judges are also fans.
It's good he likes Misha's programs. I certainly don't. The judges like parts of his programs, and that's why he is not buried down in 9th place :) Acknowledging that he is not on par with the top skaters in the PCS items is quite easy to do. He is young. He has mastered the jumps. Let's give him a chance to develop.

BTW : I see a pattern here. Some newer, younger skaters come to the circuit with big statements. They have the jumps. Yet, they are still developing and they know that. Some fans complain they should be ranked higher.
The reality is that most skaters do start with learning the jumps first and focusing on that. When they get that ready, they go to the circuit and compete. Then they learn the rest. That's why longevity matters so much.

Malinin, Sato, Shaidorov can all be very special skaters in a couple years from now ! If they keep developing.

Here... :)
 
I am still wondering about how long is a long career?

The top men skate competetively - and with good results - until their late 20s, sometimes early 30s. 8+ seasons in the seniors is the average for them.

Even women are skating average 6+ seasons in seniors these days - longer than ever before.

I have not looked at what pairs and ice dancers do, but my gut feeling is that they also often skate into their late 20s/early 30s. Individual partnerships can be short, I guess?

I really cannot see longevity as a problem for figure skating's popularity - unless the whole sport is judged by the relatively few champion women with senior careers spanning less than 6 seasons?
 
BTW : I see a pattern here. Some newer, younger skaters come to the circuit with big statements. They have the jumps. Yet, they are still developing and they know that. Some fans complain they should be ranked higher.
The reality is that most skaters do start with learning the jumps first and focusing on that. When they get that ready, they go to the circuit and compete. Then they learn the rest. That's why longevity matters so much.
This is what I find so striking in Patrick Chan's career. He started out (2006) as a prodigy of blade skills. Four years later, he concentrated on jumping and landed his first quad in 2010. Then in 2013 he burst out with the Elegy exhibition program to complete the trifecta of skating skills, technical elements, and esthetic merit. :rock: :love:
 
This is true. I remember back in 2002, the up and comer U.S. lady was Ann Patrice McDonnogh. Never heard of her? Here's why. After winning the 2002 Junior World Championship she was ready for the big time. She got second place (to Michelle Kwan) in seniors at 2002 Skate America, then it was off to her second event, Cup of Russia, with every hope of making the Grand Prix final.

But when she got to Paris, she and her mother, inexperienced travellers, discovered that their visas were not in order for the connecting flight to Moscow. They went back home in dejection. and AP retired the next year. To its credit, I believe that the USFSA determined to offer better support and guidance to young travellers after after that.
I was thinking Litvintzev missing his GP in 2023... Lol, I am almost flattered that you would think I would have heard of Ann McD even if she won that final. The amount of jellybeans I give about 2002 season is a quarter of a zilch.
 
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I really cannot see longevity as a problem for figure skating's popularity - unless the whole sport is judged by the relatively few champion women with senior careers spanning less than 6 seasons?
OP was worried about men, not women. Oddly. Seems women are okay now. Men are apparently retiring left and right before their time...(???) I am sure it's Chen. Obviously, it's Chen.

I honestly not even sure if anyone cares for pairs.

And, like, ID has endlessly long careers. Interminable basically.
 
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This is what I find so striking in Patrick Chan's career. He started out (2006) as a prodigy of blade skills. Four years later, he concentrated on jumping and landed his first quad in 2010. Then in 2013 he burst out with the Elegy exhibition program to complete the trifecta of skating skills, technical elements, and esthetic merit. :rock: :love:
And how I totally got into his skating. I wish more would take this path of learning skating first.
 
Malinin, Sato, Shaidorov can all be very special skaters in a couple years from now ! If they keep developing.
So let's down score them now to, like, build character? To me, if the skater is good, they are good. Score them well now, not put them in the queue like ID so they have to grind the medals out. What's that, an acceptance of hazing? Mindboggling.
 
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So let's down score them now to, like, build the character? To me, if the skater is good, they are good. Score them well now, not put them in the queue like ID so they have to grind the medals out. Mindboggling.

They are not being scored down now.

They are being scored accurately now.

When and if their other elements improve, their scores will improve.
 
They are not being scored down now.

They are being scored accurately now.

When and if their other elements improve, their scores will improve.
No, they are not. Or those with higher seniority are over scored when they are in the same competition.
 
No, they are not. Or those with higher seniority are over scored when they are in the same competition.

That is your opinion. My opinion is different.

Needless to say, my opinion is not fact and your opinion is not fact. So there is no fact-based "bias" that is holding younger skaters "down".

ETA: And therefore no judging "bias" that would impede a long career, should they choose to have one.
 
That is your opinion. My opinion is different.

Needless to say, my opinion is not fact and your opinion is not fact. So there is no fact-based "bias" that is holding younger skaters "down".

ETA: And therefore no judging "bias" that would impede a long career, should they choose to have one.
Actually, the Skating Scores charts show bias very clearly. Some judges don't have it. Others show it all the time. I went through the list of the judges in Finland. Only one wasn't in the DB, the US one, for some reason. All others have a history of competitions with easy highlights showing their deviations from the panel decisions. That French woman is super-bias, every time pretty much. Gal carries the torch for anything French on skates. Just spend a bit of time going through the charts, it's all there, even marked in green and red.

And, like Shaidorov jumped from 12th in PSC to 6th (in opinion of 7/9 judges) to 6th overnight in Skate Canada. Alas, the damage was already done to his score, and the 2 guys with more seniority floated ahead, despite bombing either SP or FS. I mean, I am sure he had a great sleep that night to the sound of Vancouver's tidal breezes and that totally impacted his glide. Riiight.
 
I mean, let's take a look at how the PCSs are being scored nowadays.

Example:
Judge No.3Ms. Florence VUYLSTEKER
FRA.GIF
FRA

According to Ms. Florence of...wait for it...France!...in short program:

Miura: 6.75, 6.50 and 8.0 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 9.0).
Sato: 7.0, 6.75 and 8.25 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.75).
Shimada: 5.25, 5.0, 6.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.0 to 8.50).
Rizzo: 6.75, 6.75, 7.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 8.75).

Aymoz: 8.75, 8.75 and 8.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.0 to 9.0).
If anyone is interested in knowing how the ISU rules handle this situation, it goes as follows. The first number is the score given by judge #3, the second is the average of the panel. (To save myself some work I cheated a lttle and took the trimmed mean from the published protocols instead of recomputing the full mean on my own.) The last number is the (signed ) "deviation points" (pluses and minuses are allowed to cancel.)

Miura
..... Composition..... 6.75..... 8.25..... - 1.5
..... Presentation..... 6.50..... 8.25..... -1.75
..... Skating Skills.... 8.00.... .8.54..... -0.54

Tota ldeviation poins -3.79

To escape an automatic “evaluation” by the ISU committee, the total deviation points cannot exceed 4.50, so this judge, by the skin of her teeth,would not be subject to review on the basis of these scores alone.

Aymoz
..... Composition..... 8.75..... 8.61..... + 0.14
..... Presentation..... 8.75..... 8.57..... +0.18
..... Skating Skills.... 8.75..... 8.50 ..... +0.25

Total deviation points + 0.57 (Nothing to see here, folks.)

(By the way, the reason that average PCSs end in decimals like .18 and .57 is that they are graduated in 28ths of a point: .57 = 16/28, 18 = 5/28, etc. It is mathematically possible, and has actually happened a time or two, for a figure conting contest to be decided by rounding errors. If you get 5/28 = ..1758..., then your score is rounded up to .18. But if you get a score of 6/28 = 0,2141..., then your score is rounded down, and you lost a hundredth of a point in the exchange.)
 
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OP was worried about men, not women. Oddly. Seems women are okay now. Men are apparently retiring left and right before their time...(???) I am sure it's Chen. Obviously, it's Chen.

I honestly not even sure if anyone cares for pairs.

And, like, ID has endlessly long careers. Interminable basically.

You are putting words into my mouth.
 
You are putting words into my mouth.
It's funny how people see what they want to see. My distinct inpression of the original post was that it was that it was about the parade of young ladies who cometh forth like a flower and are cut down, who fleeth also as a shadow and continueth not. I think that it is also relevant that the first word in the title of the thread is "opinion." :)

Anyway, as for Ilia Malinin and how his performances are scored, Malinin is a prodigious jumper. He gets the points that he deserves on his jumps. As for other aspects of his skating, he is a work in progress, and this, too, is reflected in the scores.

One thing for sure, whether he has a long career or a short one, he will be remembered in the history of figure skating as the first to do a quadruple Axel. Even as Brandon Mroz is celebrated as the first to do a quad Lutz.
 
Lol, I am almost flattered that you would think I would have heard of Ann McD even if she won that final. The amount of jellybeans I give about 2002 season is a quarter of a zilch.
Actually, I would have been astonished if you had ever heard of AP McD no matter what her accomplishments might have been.

But 2002? Yagudin AND Plushenko? Kwan AND Slutskaya? Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze AND Sale/Pelletiere AND Shen/Ziao?

Oh well. Sic transit gloria mundi.
 
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