Why is the quad Axel so undervalued?

[Mathman]

As it stands ... someone with only triples can compete with someone with strong quads

I do not think that this is true in men's skating any more. I don't think that there will ever again be a world champion who does not have strong quads.

As for women, possibly, but only because there are no women who have "strong quads" (maybe Trusova) -- or any women doing quads at all now that Russian women have been banned from international competition..

Each rotation is exponentially harder so should be multiples higher not fractionally higher (especially with a quad).

For an Olympic sprinter it would be much easier to get the 100m sprint time down from 10.2 seconds to 10 seconds, than from 10 seconds to 9.8 seconds. Even though it's the same 0.2 decrease in the time.

Well, that is exacttly the premise of this thread, that quads (and especially the quad Axel) are "undervalued." I was hoping to gain some insight into this, but the only reason that has been advanced -- setting aside wuzrobbing and conspiracy theories -- is the obvious one that the ISU does not want the sport to be dominated by jumping to the exclusion of everything else. This explanation makes sense to me.

 

[Skating91]

I do not think that this is true in men's skating any more. I don't think that there will ever again be a world champion who does not have strong quads.

As for women, possibly, but only because there are no women who have "strong quads" (maybe Trusova) -- or any women doing quads at all now that Russian women have been banned from international competition..

Women with no ultra-c post similar or better scores than women with ultra-c all the time.

This is because quad jumpers are massively undervalued compared to triple jumpers, but triple jumpers are massively overvalued compared to double jumpers.

Well, that is exacttly the premise of this thread, that quads (and especially the quad Axel) are "undervalued." I wa hoping to gain some insight into this, but the only reason that has been advanced -- setting aside wuzrobbing and conspiracy theories -- is the obvious one that the ISU does not want the sport to be dominated by jumping to the exclusion of everything else. This explanation makes sense to me.

If a triple lutz was only 54% more than a double lutz then we would not have all those triple jumpers dominating skating to the exclusion of double jumpers who might have great PCS but can't compete with someone who has a triple lutz. At one point jumping a triple lutz was unthinkable it is only something the elite women in the world can jump. No different to a quad now.

By definition having a stable triple lutz makes a woman a jumper that is able to dominate skaters in earlier groups just with their jumps alone.

There are the Estionian championships going on this is some of the content.

3F
3Lo fall
3S+2T
2Aq barely
2T
1Lo
this is a weird Shakira remix but I don't hate it!
2A< awful technique

If someone comes along with a full complement of successfully landed triples and wins should everyone feel a little aggrieved that the contest is being dominated by jumping to the exclusion of everything else?

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

or any women doing quads at all

Careful with such statements, have you followed the GP at all this season?

 

[Mathman]

Careful with such statements (that no women are ding quads these days), have you followed the GP at all this season?

My bad. No, I have to confess that I did not follow the Grand Prix closely this year (although I did come to appreciate Adam Siao Him Fa by the end of the season).

Anyway, yes, I see that Rion Sumiyoshi landed a satisfactory 4T at France and won the long program. She did an underrotated one in the LP at Finland and got second. And she attempted one at the Finals, but it was downgraded to a triple and she got last in that segment.

Good for her! Keep up the good work! Going forward, if she can stabilize her quad while improving in other areas she will score well.

But I do not see anything in these results that raises questions about the fairness of the scale of values.

 

[4everchan]

Mao Shimada landed a 4t at jgpf as well

 

[Mathman]

There are the Estonian championships going on this is some of the content.

3F
3Lo fall
3S+2T
2Aq barely
2T
1Lo
this is a weird Shakira remix but I don't hate it!
2A< awful techniqu

Well, if this is what this skater is capable of, then her coach has some things to work on for the future. She could start with improving her double Axel technique.

If this skater were to win the Estonian national cgampionship with this content and no one was better, then congratulations to the champion. What I don't see is how changing the base values of quads would have any effect either on the perfpormances in this competition or the results.

 

[4everchan]

Also, the analogy with sprinters is not very relevant. A sprinter is evaluated on... the time needed to get from point A to point B. There are no style points

A figure skater must perform varied skills (jumps, spins, steps, moves in the field, quality of blade work, full body movement while on blade, etc)

If I agree that a quad jump is harder than a triple jump, the sport is conceived with balance of skills not just jumping. In that sense, jumps overall, are already overvalued compared to spins, steps and program components.

The value of jumps needs to be seen in that context. Fans often look at the base value of jumps and compare them to one another, but the real question is not if a triple lutz is over valued or not versus a double axel or in the context of this thread, if a quad axel is undervalued in the current code of points. The real question is really : has the overall quad revolution from the last decade or so broken the equilibrium in scoring figure skating programs.

I am one of these fans who answers yes to this question. So in that context, it's obvious that I cannot even imagine scoring some jumps even higher than they already are

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Also, the analogy with sprinters is not very relevant. A sprinter is evaluated on... the time needed to get from point A to point B. There are no style points

A figure skater must perform varied skills (jumps, spins, steps, moves in the field, quality of blade work, full body movement while on blade, etc)

If I agree that a quad jump is harder than a triple jump, the sport is conceived with balance of skills not just jumping. In that sense, jumps overall, are already overvalued compared to spins, steps and program components.

The value of jumps needs to be seen in that context. Fans often look at the base value of jumps and compare them to one another, but the real question is not if a triple lutz is over valued or not versus a double axel or in the context of this thread, if a quad axel is undervalued in the current code of points. The real question is really : has the overall quad revolution from the last decade or so broken the equilibrium in scoring figure skating programs.

I am one of these fans who answers yes to this question. So in that context, it's obvious that I cannot even imagine scoring some jumps even higher than they already are

Out of curiosity, I have an open question for everybody:

What about lowering the value of the other jumps instead? Create a bigger 4A differential but give more weight to other elements and PCS?

 

[4everchan]

Out of curiosity, I have an open question for everybody:

What about lowering the value of the other jumps instead? Create a bigger 4A differential but give more weight to other elements and PCS?

It is tricky : lowering triples and/or other quads versus the quad axel clearly gives a point advantage for a specific element which is by the way, very not common at this point. I wouldn't want a rule that makes it mathematically impossible to win against one skater in particular
For instance, when Duhamel Radford were the only ones doing triple lutzes and a quad throw, other teams could still beat them because they could score well enough with the other elements to even earn more points (for instance on the twist or some lifts or with better quality throws and jumps with better flow/amplitude).

But yeah, I said it earlier in this thread. Steps need more recognition. I would scrap one jumping pass altogether to allow to bring one more step sequence and rebalance things.

I was thinking that the choreo sequence could be tweaked as well... What about having different smaller elements that are optional but mark skaters for them... for instance, a gliding move, a choreo sequence that is more rhytmic/focused on interpreting the music, a one foot step sequence finishing with or without twizzles, of course a spiral sequence, etc etc Skaters would have to include a few of these choreo elements in between elements and not just one extended choreo sequence.

I feel programs would be more interesting. Of course, judges may give too much GOE based on whoever is on the ice, a bit like in ice dance, so i am not entirely convinced about my own idea here lol.. but I feel that programs that would really have to include a variety of elements throughout the entire 4 minute would be better.

 

[Mathman]

One reason, I think, that discussions of the scale of values focuses so much on jumps is that it is reletively easy for experts and fans alike to identify why one jump gets a higher value than another. If you spin around three times that's better than spinning around two times. If you have a steady edge of the landing, that's better than if you wobble about trying to recover your balance. Why one take-off edge is harder than another, well that does require some experience and understanding, but no one is getting irate over the fact the the official rules think that a Lutz is harder than a Salchow.

Non-jump elements are not so easy for a non-expert to evaluate. The features required for spin levels, for instance, are hard to spot. Did she just change edge or not on that in that CCoSp element? Ice Dance is the hardest. Don't fall on your twizzles, OK. But how us a viewer to know whether a skater is on the correct edge on the precise beat of a pattern?

The TV commentraty does not help. While the skaters are waiting for their marks we see slow-motions of the jumps that they did, but we never hear Johnny and Tara show a clip of a spin and say, "Look right here how she changed direction and foot, and that's why she got a level 4 and won the TES score for this segment."

Quite the contrary. When the IJS first came out there were quite a few viewers who thought that the new spins were just ugly and contortionist. Gimme an good old-fasioned, dramatic, and soul-satiffying Dorothy Hamill stratch spin to close the program on a big TADA!

 

[4everchan]

One reason, I think, that discussions of the scale of values focuses so much on jumps is that it is reletively easy for experts and fans alike to identify why one jump gets a higher value than another. If you spin around three times that's better than spinning around two times. If you have a steady edge of the landing, that's better than if you wobble about trying to recover your balance. Why one take-off edge is harder than another, well that does require some experience and understanding, but no one is getting irate over the fact the the official rules think that a Lutz is harder than a Salchow.

That's true

Non-jump elements are not so easy for a non-expert to evaluate.

Even better let the experts evaluate why do we always have to be the judges

The features required for spin levels, for instance, are hard to spot. Did she just change edge or not on that in that CCoSp element? Ice Dance is the hardest. Don't fall on your twizzles, OK. But how us a viewer to know whether a skater is on the correct edge on the precise beat of a pattern?

That's why ice dance has a lot of not-leveled elements the infamous CHOR elements... which is also what I am suggesting above.

The TV commentraty does not help. While the skaters are waiting for their marks we see slow-motions of the jumps that they did, but we never hear Johnny and Tara show a clip of a spin and say, "Look right here how she changed direction and foot, and that's why she got a level 4 and won the TES score for this segment."

There is very little skating on TV nowadays but that's exactly the issue... why always showing jumps... why not a fabulous one-foot step/choreo sequence

Quite the contrary. When the IJS first came out there were quite a few viewers who thought that the new spins were just ugly and contortionist. Gimme an good old-fasioned, dramatic, and soul-satiffying Dorothy Hamill stratch spin to close the program on a big TADA!

this is a simple fix. Nix one leveled spin. Add one "choreographic spin" that needs to be at the end of the program (like the Choreo lift in dance)... and skaters can do whatever they want with it as long as it does fit the program/music.

I am telling you... vote 4everchan for new ISU president LOL

 

[icewhite]

Out of curiosity, I have an open question for everybody:

What about lowering the value of the other jumps instead? Create a bigger 4A differential but give more weight to other elements and PCS?

It's definitely an idea worth thinking about.
However maybe the current points scale does not allow for reflecting the huge differences in skating overall (from competitive beginner to the very best) and if you just lower the jump values that does not adress that issue.

The biggest issue seems to be that more possible differentiation is needed (in how a step sequence is executed etc.) but whenever you give the judges more leeway they will use that to score favourites as they like.

So, adjusting the base values would be desirable but above all we need better judging. Otherwise tinkering with the system will not help in the end.

 

[Mathman]

If the choice is between lowering the values of jumps or raising the values of everything else, then raising the values of everything else is better. That way there will be a lot of World Record performances and world record scores.. That's what sports fans really want to see -- World Records.

 

[4everchan]

If the choice is between lowering the values of jumps or raising the values of everything else, then raising the values of everything else is better. That way there will be a lot of World Record performances and world record scores.. That's what sports fans really want to see -- World Records.

MEH some people know how i feel about world records in skating... or how I don't feel. Different panels, different rules... it's like when you play monopoly with your 9.5 year old little cousin and she changes the rules every time you pass go.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

If the choice is between lowering the values of jumps or raising the values of everything else, then raising the values of everything else is better. That way there will be a lot of World Record performances and world record scores.. That's what sports fans really want to see -- World Records.

Clearly, general public didn't react at all to made-up World Records. Maybe I shouldn't add that it seems to have been one of those brilliant ideas by Ari Zakarian, do you remember, the man who in March 2020 wanted a "crowd meeting physically athletes" event at World Championships, and didn't find it useful to try to hold a safe event... That's quite impolitic, but I will add that contrary to his idea, yours is just a pop along a thread of conversation, a bit like in a brainstorming, one tells all what comes to mind and of course at first sight it seems to be good marketing. And after all, as a French and having seen Eteri Tutberidze behind the boards, I know that it's possible to make things with luggage lining fabric to your brand, label it "French luxury", set enormous prices and have customers queuing to buy it. That's successful marketing without the real quality and Ari Zakarian must know it.
"Luxury isn't the opposite of poverty, it's the opposite of vulgarity."
Gabrielle (Coco) Chanel.

 

[TallyT]

If the choice is between lowering the values of jumps or raising the values of everything else, then raising the values of everything else is better. That way there will be a lot of World Record performances and world record scores.. That's what sports fans really want to see -- World Records.

Which reminds me of the story I scrolled past recently, went back and checked: a swimming WR has been broken that stood for fifteen years. I think that's the sort of story that is bigger than when records are broken every second competition... they mean less when they tumble too often.

Swimming world in frenzy over insane Grant Hackett development after 15 years

Irish sensation Daniel Wiffen is the talk of the swimming world. Read more here.

au.sports.yahoo.com

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Which reminds me of the story I scrolled past recently, went back and checked: a swimming WR has been broken that stood for fifteen years. I think that's the sort of story that is bigger than when records are broken every second competition... they mean less when they tumble too often.

Swimming world in frenzy over insane Grant Hackett development after 15 years

Irish sensation Daniel Wiffen is the talk of the swimming world. Read more here.

au.sports.yahoo.com

To go back to Pole Vault, this was certainly not Sergei Bubka's strategy... But maybe he had incentives to break records many times instead of one sole huge record-breaking.

 

[4everchan]

Which reminds me of the story I scrolled past recently, went back and checked: a swimming WR has been broken that stood for fifteen years. I think that's the sort of story that is bigger than when records are broken every second competition... they mean less when they tumble too often.

Swimming world in frenzy over insane Grant Hackett development after 15 years

Irish sensation Daniel Wiffen is the talk of the swimming world. Read more here.

au.sports.yahoo.com

Well, again this is an oddity because it probably corresponds to the super-suit records. In 2008-09, there was new technology. The super-suit. Many records were broken... and then, the suit was banned.... so another "rule change"

It is good that these records are going away...

In general, track or swimming are at least meaningful : fastest time... furthest throw.. highest or longest jump
Figure skating records are MEH

What I find more interesting in figure skating are first achievements...

 

[4everchan]

To go back to Pole Vault, this was certainly not Sergei Bubka's strategy... But maybe he had incentives to break records many times instead of one sole huge record-breaking.

Well. Many competitions offer bonus money when a record is broken. So, one would have a financial incentive to break it one centimeter at a time

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Well. Many competitions offer bonus money when a record is broken. So, one would have a financial incentive to break it once centimeter at a time

Is this true? I had taken it as a rumour but then, I know nothing about sports!