Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Skating91]

There is absolutely room for nuance, and we'll no more once the full decision, and supporting documentation is released, but based on what has been reported so far Valieva's representatives presented no evidence to indicate that the positive test was as a result of contamination or unintentional ingestion.

I don't dispute this. My issue is that the 15 year old Jamaican presented no evidence to indicate that her TWO positive results were the result of contamination or sabotage, but the anti doping agency accepted this and gave a reprimand which was not appealed by WADA.

The 15 year old swimmer was suspended 0 years, the 15 year old skater suspended 4 years.

Doesn't seem fair, or right

 

[Skating91]

That's just it. This is a relatively low profile case that is not getting attention outside of swimming blogs because this athlete is competing in high school meets, and junior competitions. There may be an appeal that hasn't been publicized, but it could take up to two years for that process to be completed.

She competed at the Commonwealth Games and is based in the United States.

She last competed three days ago.

Anything short of an appeal from WADA and seeking a 4 year suspension could possibly indicate a bias and an agenda against Valieva.

To me this is highly discriminatory. It highly unlikely WADA are appealing this.

 

[TT_Fin]

Doping Scandal here in Finland 2001 in Nordic skiing. The doctors and coaches involved got a life time ban for sports. All of their bans are lifted now, but it took 4-15 years doctors' ban being the longest ones. I did not find out was that ban decided internationally or locally.

I understand why in this case it is easier to eliminate one's scores compared to other sports. In ice hockey they don't eliminate the matches where banned person has not played or do they? In relays where people run, swim or ski towards time it is quite impossible to make results by taking one member's time off. How could that be done when less time -> better result.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

think I Iiked it better when admin was deleting everything lol

this thread is a mess

 

[4everchan]

Doping Scandal here in Finland 2001 in Nordic skiing. The doctors and coaches involved got a life time ban for sports. All of their bans are lifted now, but it took 4-15 years doctors' ban being the longest ones. I did not find out was that ban decided internationally or locally.

I understand why in this case it is easier to eliminate one's scores compared to other sports. In ice hockey they don't eliminate the matches where banned person has played or do they? In relays where people run, swim or ski towards time it is quite impossible to make results by taking one member's time off. How could that be done when less time -> better result.

I think the nuance has to be made.
It's okay for a team not to be completely D/Q based on the cheating of one athlete when it's made of individual segments, with ranking points. That's fine by me.
However, the athletes from the said segment need to be scored properly. The ISU here only went with a half ruling here, selecting to remove KV's results but not score the other competitors one rank higher, which they deserve.

 

[lariko]

Well, it is rules. According to lots of people here that mean that this is fair. Of course right now, when such rules are benefitting Russians those people start reconsidering their poposition.

I beg your pardon?

 

[lariko]

Instead of conspiracy theories, whataboutism, and giving the benefit of a doubt when a doubt objectively doesn't exist, again I emphasize that grandpa's drinking glass was literally the defense here

I believe it’s grandpa's fork now. From splitting an eclair. Lol.

 

[lariko]

Doesn't seem fair, or right

Neither it is fair that every other figure skater in the last few years immediately discontinued competing, pending the decision, while Valieva participated in competitions for 2 years. I am still waiting on Rusfed to return medals to Tuktamysheva, Murav'eva and Sinitzina.

 

[yelyoh]

The sad and ironic thing is that KV was an excellent skater as a junior and had transitioned well to senior. She had all the talent and ability to win without juicing. Why any of this happened is beyond me. The person who made the decision for her to use TMZ was an idiot or blindly ambitious on her behalf. I do think consequences are appropriate and warranted. And yes Carol1 (great post) I do remember Meldonium. I know of one athlete (tennis) who used it because she stated it was for her asthma. Yet it had not been previously disclosed that she even had asthma. Or what she took after she could no longer take Meldonium (see Jon Wertheim, sportswriter). She was banned for a couple of years and then retired.

 

[beachmouse]

Is she also prohibited from training or just banned from domestic and international competitions? (Sorry I just found out the news)

She can train but she cannot train with any recognized club or any coach who is recognized or credentialed by her federation. So if she wants to rent ice time at a local shopping mall rink and train on her own that way, she is free to do so.

Unfortunately ISU will probably respond that this rule applies to singles, dance, and pairs, not the team event because they didn't bother to create rules for that. Hopefully they bother to create a clause in light of this situation.

Award the medals to the US and Japan. Let Canada and Russia sort their mess out. Though it is nice to see that Canada finally grew a spine and actually said something. 2 years of silence before this.

There are ISU rules for something close to that (I posted up thread). They state that if one skater tests positive during a team event, even if that skater is entered as a substitute, that the whole team shall be disqualified. There is no explicit language on whether a skater who has tested positive and who is on appeal and how that impacts team event standings. This is because according to the parts of the document I read through, a skater who tests positive is actually supposed to be provisionally suspended until the case is sorted out so it get fuzzy about whether ‘the lab was late’ and therefore allowing a skater who should have been provisionally suspended at the time of competition to skate and how that sorts out.

I think a good sports lawyer could probably make a decent rules interpretation case for Canada and Russia both.

Wait, do i understand it right - this is how rule based process look to US?

appeals notwithstanding

Gold and Silver are sorted out at this point. Let the sorted out athletes get their medals and performance bonuses associated with being an Olympic gold or silver medalist. That money can make a difference in terms of whether an athlete on the financial bubble can afford to train for another year.

There are doping cases that literally take a decade to resolve. We shouldn't have to wait that long for final allocation

I don't dispute this. My issue is that the 15 year old Jamaican presented no evidence to indicate that her TWO positive results were the result of contamination or sabotage, but the anti doping agency accepted this and gave a reprimand which was not appealed by WADA.

The 15 year old swimmer was suspended 0 years, the 15 year old skater suspended 4 years.

Doesn't seem fair, or right

I think that WADA was just kind of impressed the Jamaica managed to catch a doping athlete at all. They’ve got a pretty poor record in that regard. And since Alia Atkinson retired, Jamaica hasn’t exactly been turning out the world class swimmers, so Mackenzie is getting less scrutiny than someone who could hit a FINA A time standard would. (Entry standards for the Commies skew more toward ‘universality’ than hard time cuts.)

 

[Caliban]

Gold and Silver are sorted out at this point. Let the sorted out athletes get their medals and performance bonuses associated with being an Olympic gold or silver medalist. That money can make a difference in terms of whether an athlete on the financial bubble can afford to train for another year.

No, Russian appeal is about GOLD medal, nothing is sorted

 

[Arwen17]

I had a lot of trouble sleeping last night I eventually was able to sleep for a couple of hours, but I feel devastated still. It's kind of embarrassing and can't admit it in real life of course, but I can't help but feel her pain. It's one of if not the most unjust things to happen to someone in sport in my lifetime. It's the same feeling as a sudden death in a way.

Maybe when the release the details of the ruling it will make sense, but I don't know how a 15 year old swimmer caught multiple times is allow to give an explanation which amounted to shrugging her shoulders and saying it was contamination or sabotage I don't know (does not even try to offer an explaination), she receives a reprimand and WADA accepts this, but Kamila for something very similar a once off positive test of a trace amount it's a punishment that would be punitive for an adult. I know most people couldn't care less and would give her 40 years if they could, but where is the consistency?

Unfortunately this is why some people start to suspect it is political because how can they demand 4 years for one 15 year old girl, but accept a reprimand for a swimmer caught for doping on two separate occasions.

I don't dispute this. My issue is that the 15 year old Jamaican presented no evidence to indicate that her TWO positive results were the result of contamination or sabotage, but the anti doping agency accepted this and gave a reprimand which was not appealed by WADA.

The 15 year old swimmer was suspended 0 years, the 15 year old skater suspended 4 years.

Doesn't seem fair, or right

Will we get a detailed ruling report? Was grandpa's glass the ONLY thing they argued? They didn't check her supplements or anything else for accidental contamination and couldn't find anything? Or it had been too long and the pill bottles had already been thrown out?
Just seems really strange that grandpa's glass would be the only thing they checked or argued. Why not talk about checking everything and not being able to find anything and saying just like the Jamaican that you don't know where it came from because you've checked everything.

Also, for the Jamaican, was this person ever a medal contender? I'm sure they're being super hard on Kamila because its an Olympic gold medal and not a high school swim meet.

Kamila's case is extremely high profile and she embarrassed the Olympics event by a positive test turning up, so they're dog-piling her hard because there's so many indignant eyes on the case that will scream if they're too "soft" on the sentencing.

BUT the easiest way to prevent this would be IOC requiring all drugs tests to be finished before an athlete can arrive at the Olympics if they really don't want the Olympics to become a tarnished and embarrassed mess. That way the only people testing positive are the ones stupid enough to try to dope during the Olympics.
But maybe IOC likes scandal because it makes people watch more. Finding a positive test generates a TON of press for the Olympics and therefore social media clicks of outrage.

 

[TontoK]

The IOC tried to ban athletes for life for any doping violation at the Olympics. That decision was appealed to CAS, and CAS overturned the decision. The IOC does not have the authority to ban an athlete for life for doping.

And I'm saying the IOC should ignore that CAS ruling. The IOC should withdraw whatever fealty they have to CAS in this instance and dare anybody to do something about it.

It's not the CAS Games. It's the Olympic Games, and this seemingly never-ending series of drug scandals has damaged the standing of the Olympic movement in the eyes of the public.

You see it all the time in these discussions... "Everybody on the Olympic level is doping, they're just not getting caught." I bet if I looked, I could find that sentiment expressed on this thread.

If it is true, it means that the threat of existing sanctions is insufficient to deter doping among any elite athletes. How's this for a deterrent: "No matter what you do in life from this moment forward, you will NEVER call yourself an Olympian."

If it is not true, it means that clean athletes, those who have played by the rules, are smeared. Doping athletes besmirch the reputations of every competitor who enters the field of play, because people assume they are doping. Personally, I'd like to see some lawsuits from clean athletes who have been harmed against their cheating counterparts. Financially ruining a few of these cheats might help - and I'm not just talking forfeiting prize money. I'm talking about going after their last dime. I'd like to see Lance Armstrong and Justin Gatlin destitute, living in a cardboard box.

 

[beachmouse]

Will we get a detailed ruling report? Was grandpa's glass the ONLY thing they argued? They didn't check her supplements or anything else for accidental contamination and couldn't find anything? Or it had been too long and the pill bottles had already been thrown out?
Just seems really strange that grandpa's glass would be the only thing they checked or argued. Why not talk about checking everything and not being able to find anything and saying just like the Jamaican that you don't know where it came from because you've checked everything.

Also, for the Jamaican, was this person ever a medal contender? I'm sure they're being super hard on Kamila because its an Olympic gold medal and not a high school swim meet.

IIRC, CAS usually eventually releases detailed rulings. We might not get one here unless the protected person and her guardian approve the release.

As for the Jamaican, she’s decent enough to qualify for US junior nationals (USA Swimming has long allowed foreign swimmers entry into their national championships meets unless the meet is serving as a selection meet for an international team) so call her a Top 2,000 among athletes competing at US registered meets types- junior nationals is a huge enough meet that they had to split it into East and West divisions a few years back. So she’s in the ‘definitely above average but nowhere close to an Olympic B time’. Her best event is probably the 100 breaststroke, where her best time is a 1:13; the Olympic B time is 5+ seconds faster at a 1:07.12.

She likely ended up in the testing pool because the Commie and Carifta meets count as making her an international competitor, and would have been so far down the charts if she was competing as an American she wouldn’t have been in their testing pool. (Her 100 great time is outside the top 100 women listed in the USA swimming database last year- 100th fastest woman was about a 1:11 flat, and testing isn’t going to roll down to an athlete who doesn’t have a top 100 ranking.)

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Dude ... how did u get so many upvotes to this post. I literally said... multiple times... directly that my quarrel is SPECIFICALLY with the SYSTEM ITSELF and I do NOT think Kamila should get special treatment... like I SPECIFICALLY made that clear because you are like the 5th person to say something like this to me.

I do not understand why in any circumstance an athlete should be banned from training because it literally destroys their life. Just competition ban, yes, Kamila SHOULD BE BANNED FROM COMPETITION. Nobody has told me WHY ANYONE would get banned from training, thats impeding on personal life and its too far and I dont get it.

Gosh I cant with the internet how does your opening statement just blatantly state my entire point as the exact opposite of what I've said like 10 times and the hivemind just spams +rep I actually dont know dude.

Perhaps a good thing, I am so shocked I cant even be mad just slightly laughing and flabbergasted.

You do know we can see all of your posts in this thread? Very early on, you were told that this was part of the rules (Rules are rules, as you yourself said, but I guess only some rules, no?) and continued doubling down on the effect on Kamila specifically. You even wrote " Ban her from competing, thats how every sport works." which to me clearly signifies you did not understand anything at that point at least, because in fact, being unable to train in addition to being unable to compete during a doping ban is a rule in all (non-team) sports under the supervision of WADA.

In the three (!) comments of your over 50 comments you talked about the "system", you both managed to misattribute it to the ISU (these are WADA rules, not ISU rules) and managed to not mention a single other athlete and continued talking about how this is so unfair to Kamila specifically. Your empathy seems incredibly limited to one person, and one person only.

And by the way, Kamila will be unable to train for only two more months than Carolina Kostner was unable to train for (18 months), despite Carolina just receiving a 21-month ban, because Carolina was unable to train during the investigation. Kamila will be unable to train for a shorter time than Laura Barqero (who has been provisionally suspended for almost exactly 24 months now, and whose doping case hasn't even been settled yet). Kamila was given a lot of freedom that was not given to other athletes, and I don't doubt that if the provisional suspension had been upheld, her ban would not have ended up being 4 years.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Also, for the Jamaican, was this person ever a medal contender? I'm sure they're being super hard on Kamila because its an Olympic gold medal and not a high school swim meet.

I think that WADA was just kind of impressed the Jamaica managed to catch a doping athlete at all. They’ve got a pretty poor record in that regard. And since Alia Atkinson retired, Jamaica hasn’t exactly been turning out the world class swimmers, so Mackenzie is getting less scrutiny than someone who could hit a FINA A time standard would. (Entry standards for the Commies skew more toward ‘universality’ than hard time cuts.)

I have already seen many times both in this topic and in its “predecessors” highly moral statements in the style: “Rules are rules, they must be strictly observed! The rules are common to everyone!” - and now I see you openly saying the exact opposite: it turns out that rules are not for everyone. Maybe somewhere in the WADA code it is written that athletes who do not compete for high places in the main competitions have every right to use doping? I don't remember anything like that. Arguing that the Jamaican athlete was not punished due to his insignificance is essentially an admission that there are no rules.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The Canadians had already hung the bronze medal around their own necks lol.

I can see why the ISU went down their path it means it has no effect on the places below ROC, and logically, Kamila skated there in good faith, ROC picked her in good faith, it is not their fault that the Swedish lab violated the WADA code by not returning the result within the 20 day limit.

Canada just need to let it go, Russia as well. It's a hollow gold for most of the USA team anyway. Had the result been given to Valieva 30 hours earlier after sitting on it for 6 weeks, Valieva would have been replaced and Karen Chen would have easily been beaten by Shcherbakova or Trusova.

You can't be sure of that. It's like saying if they made Valieva withdraw from the individual competition, she would have been denied bronze - when Sakamoto ended up beating her. Trusova got 64.82 points in the SP at the 2021 World Championships, less than a year before the Olympics, which would have been lower than what Karen Chen got in her team SP (65.20).

The bronze medal should be hung around the necks of the Canadians, if the points were probably adjusted.

What is hollow is Russia getting a bronze medal for a team that has benefitted (and still benefits, until they adjust the women's SP + FS team points) from having a doped athlete on it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What more do you want? Valieva the greatest talent in history has no results from age 15-19 in her peak, Russia stripped of a gold they would have won just as easily with Shcherbakova or Truova if the result WADA sat on for 6 weeks (they had to return it within 20 days but didn't violating their own code) was returned a mere 30 hours earlier.

You should be dancing in the streets celebrating, popping champagne -- THIS IS YOUR MOMENT!!! Russian skating has been humiliated, don't complain enjoy it. This is what you have waited for!!

Instead you're upset that Maddie Schizas is denied an Olympic medal.

You can't win them all.

Humiliated? Hardly. One needs a sense of shame in order to be humiliated — and something tells me after 45 Olympic medals being stripped it's not quite getting to them.

Canada might not get the points for bronze — but Russia will never get the point.

 

[Jammers]

This nonsense has to end. Just set up the ceremony for the US and Japanese teams to get their medals so they don't have to wait at least another year to finally get their medals. Let Canada and the Russians appeal and when a decision is finally made either give the Canadians a ceremony for their medals or if the Russians win the Bronze ship them off with FedEx.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Her Rostelecom Cup world records will stand for many years, the short program is 87 that can be broken you would need someone with a perfect 3A and incredible skating skills, but the free skate and overall score won't. They'd have to change the scoring rules, but it would still stand forever under old scoring rules.

To break that score you'd also need that skater to be competing in their home country— a home country where scoring for their own athletes is so blatantly egregiously biased that it didn't matter how much more improvement that skater could use in their overall skating or programs — they'd still score 9.50's and above, and 37.45 for PCS.