ISU releases official agenda with proposals for 2024: age limits, jump limits and more

[Mathman]

Anyone who claims that impressive jumps on their own are an equal to the traditional deep essence of skating just doesnt even like figure skating.

I like your avatar.

I agree that the whole jumps versus choreography thing is somewhat off target. I would say that the "deep essence of skating" is not choreography, music, or in fact, aesthetic considerations at all. I believe that what makes figure skating figure skating, and not some other type of sport or entertainment, is the demonstration of blade to ice skills. Everything else is embellishment and add-on.

 

[4everchan]

Cannot wait for summer competitions

 

[TallyT]

I like your avatar.

I agree that the whole jumps versus choreography thing is somewhat off target. I would say that the "deep essence of skating" is not choreography, music, or in fact, aesthetic considerations at all. I believe that what makes figure skating figure skating, and not some other type of sport or entertainment, is the demonstration of blade to ice skills. Everything else is embellishment and add-on.

I'm going to be unblushingly partisan and remind everyone of what a commentator said in 2018, at the OG Gala... "with one delayed axel, one triple axel, Yuzuru Hanyu double gold medallist just gave a masterclass on what figure skating actually is." Not because it's Yuzu (though yes, that's the reason I of the bad memory actually remember it, and also please remember he was one of those in the forefront of the quad rise) but because it is true that the jumps needn't matter all that much if the rest is perfect. Jason is still number two in the US, without quads, because the rest is near perfect. Patrick Chan won world championships when the rest was pretty damn well perfect. Anna Shcherbakova convincingly beat out the other Russian wondergirls, including the quad queen, because the rest - if not perfect - was so so much closer to perfect than they were. Trusova herself, with all her jumps, never won major international gold as a senior because the rest was so much less perfect than her competitors.

Jumps are great and exciting but they are by their nature transient, over and done with in seconds. Like anything else, they can become a surfeit.

 

[4everchan]

I'm going to be unblushingly partisan and remind everyone of what a commentator said in 2018, at the OG Gala... "with one delayed axel, one triple axel, Yuzuru Hanyu double gold medallist just gave a masterclass on what figure skating actually is." Not because it's Yuzu (though yes, that's the reason I of the bad memory actually remember it, and also please remember he was one of those in the forefront of the quad rise) but because it is true that the jumps needn't matter all that much if the rest is perfect. Jason is still number two in the US, without quads, because the rest is near perfect. Patrick Chan won world championships when the rest was pretty damn well perfect. Anna Shcherbakova convincingly beat out the other Russian wondergirls, including the quad queen, because the rest - if not perfect - was so so much closer to perfect than they were. Trusova herself, with all her jumps, never won major international gold as a senior because the rest was so much less perfect than her competitors.

Jumps are great and exciting but they are by their nature transient, over and done with in seconds. Like anything else, they can become a surfeit.

Let's be fair : Patrick didn't win his titles because of everything else but jumps as you imply... He won his titles because he could land perfect textbook quad toes. People criticize his jumps very unfairly. He had some famous misses : that's true. But look at the best example of ALL his jumps, even the axel, and it's textbook. He knew how to jump and he knew how to include them in his programs. That's why he won. Not because he had the best skating skills "the rest" as you call it. If that were true, he would have won also at 2009 worlds. ( I am more than happy to leave 2010 worlds to Dai, because he deserved it fully)

I think this thread has forced us to take sides but the reality is that the side i am taking is NOT jumps versus choreo.

I want it all. I want jumps to be part of good programs. I believe that the new rules could achieve that. I don't even care about how skater XYZ or skater KLMNOP would be affected by the new rules. I care about how these rules would shape new programs. I think they are needed and I hope they pass.

The one thing I find annoying is that such major changes should not happen in the middle of an Olympic cycle... The ISU should think things through better and not have to change rules every minute. That's really the upsetting part for me

 

[TallyT]

Let's be fair : Patrick didn't win his titles because of everything else but jumps as you imply... He won his titles because he could land perfect textbook quad toes. People criticize his jumps very unfairly. He had some famous misses : that's true. But look at the best example of ALL his jumps, even the axel, and it's textbook. He knew how to jump and he knew how to include them in his programs. That's why he won. Not because he had the best skating skills "the rest" as you call it. If that were true, he would have won also at 2009 worlds. ( I am more than happy to leave 2010 worlds to Dai, because he deserved it fully)

Fair enough, but you will agree that he stood apart in the brilliance he could put into everything else as well? Patrick was one of those skaters was was not just good at one thing (I do apologise, that was the point I carefully managed to fudge here) but at almost everything. The everything counts (note that when I think of Patrick, his jumps are waaaaayyyy back on what I think of. And I am, where he is concerned, a casual fan.)

Oh, and by sheer coincidence and youtube's unfathomable algorithm, this popped up on my feed...

which is incredibly clever, yes. But.... umm....

What is so wrong with wanting it all anyway?

 

[4everchan]

Fair enough, but you will agree that he stood apart in the brilliance he could put into everything else as well? Patrick was one of those skaters was was not just good at one thing (I do apologise, that was the point I carefully managed to fudge here) but at almost everything. The everything counts (note that when I think of Patrick, his jumps are waaaaayyyy back on what I think of. And I am, where he is concerned, a casual fan.)

Oh, and by sheer coincidence and youtube's unfathomable algorithm, this popped up on my feed...

which is incredibly clever, yes. But.... umm....

What is so wrong with wanting it all anyway?

I am posting this just for the Tracy Wilson comment.

No need to watch the beautiful program that comes after if you don't want to... but she says it very well. If you do there watch until the end, Tracy reinforces her initial comment

Tracy Wilson :
He was the skater who raised the bar, to the point where a skater had to have the quads and the fabulous skating to be the best in the world. He initiated that drive.

I trust Tracy to know what she's talking about. But more to the point, and related to this thread : I want skaters like Patrick. Those who have the exciting beautiful jumps and everything else. That's my wish, and considering what's going on in the sport right now, I would welcome the removal of a jumping pass if it does mean that skater will be able to integrate their jumping tournament better into beautiful programs.

 

[Arigato]

I play this SP all the time. It's that good. Effortless, brilliant skating. The sport needs more, and deserves more.

 

[icewhite]

Not true. Unless there is a rule change, one of the required elements in the short program is a double or triple axel.

He can include the 4A in the combination or (as at the GPF) as the solo jump, so it would be replacing a quad, not the 3A. And therefore could add a few more points but not 4-5.


In the free skate. Not currently allowed in the SP.

Let's hope someone tries a quad-quad or at least a triple-quad in a FS one of these days. Would be cool to see.
(One way to encourage that would be to offer a bonus multiplier base value of the second jump in a true combination.)

Especially in a program with fewer jump passes if the currently proposed rule change takes effect.

Apologies, of course you are right, he could not do those jumps in the short with the current rules.

 

[4everchan]

I wish the proposed changes motivated skaters to do combinations like 4T+3T+3Lo again (Plushenko used to jump this back in the day).

I think the new rules will bring higher degree of difficulty combos. Skaters will want to maximize their points with one less jumping pass and that would be one very good way to do so. I suspect we will see combos like 4X EU 4/3X + 3X as well. Some skaters can do 4t Eu 4S but wouldn't have any advantage doing that before, now they would and could add another jump at the end of it. Much more rewarding than a 3X 2A 2A

 

[TallyT]

{remind me never ever to compliment Patrick again... I can't even get that right, it seems}

Seriously though and back to the topic at hand, the ISU just may have worked out after a quad and a half of trying, that blatantly favouring the jumpers is not getting the results they wanted. So maybe they are looking for a balance?

 

[icewhite]

I think the new rules will bring higher degree of difficulty combos. Skaters will want to maximize their points with one less jumping pass and that would be one very good way to do so. I suspect we will see combos like 4X EU 4/3X + 3X as well. Some skaters can do 4t Eu 4S but wouldn't have any advantage doing that before, now they would and could add another jump at the end of it. Much more rewarding than a 3X 2A 2A

That's what I expect and hope, too.

 

[icewhite]

I just rewatched this program from last season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU8o02_XZoc (Mozalev, My Body is a Cage)
What a wonderful program, full of choreography, almost no empty moment at all, such complexity... it should get the highest composition scores. It's so sad that a program consisting of nothing but the seperate elements and maybe one signature move will get the same scores.
So in that regard I agree with the sceptics. Taking out one jumping passage will not make a change if the general attitude does not change and the scoring does not get better. If judges in their heads still only reward jumps, reputation and being from the right fed and are not punished for that, no change in rules will matter.

 

[Mathman]

{remind me never ever to compliment Patrick again...

True. No matter how hard you try you can never compliment a skater lavishly enough to satisfy partisans. You must use the exact words that they require. (Not just Patrick, of course.)

Patrick Chan gets an A+ for skating skills, but he was not the tip top of the heap in terms of number and variety of quads presented (sorry Tracy Wilson, that's just a fact. Chan never did as many quads as Tim Goebel did back in 2002 while losing to Yagudin and Plushenko -- sorry, Tim Goebel fans). Nathan Chen gets an A+ for most quads of different kinds. and A- in skating skills (help, help, the Nathan Chen fans are after me now!) Malinin so far the same. Hanyu -- I don't dare say he was a fine skater in all respects -- that is not high enough praise to save my neck from the guillotine.

Myself, I am still working on my lifelong project to compose the definitive ode to Michelle Kwan -- the poem that has so much flowery language that it will sweep all rival odes to Michelle Kwan from the stage. (Sorry, Sasha Cohen fans.)

Anyway, back on topic , these changes will not help or hurt any skater. Malinin will not face greater difficulties if the new rules pass or if they don't, nor will he enjoy smoother sledding going forward either way. Neither will Jason Brown. All skaters will do everything they can to maximize their point totals. They can consult the appropriate scale-of-values documents if they are in doubt about how to do that.

And Adam SH Fa will do backflips whether "allowed" or not (channeling Surya Bonaly).

 

[Anna K.]

• The Netherlands wants skaters to be able to display logos, brands, designs, and/or sponsorship markings on their boots.

Go, Netherlands! We need more footwork close-ups on television

 

[TallyT]

Hanyu -- I don't dare say he was a fine skater in all respects -- that is not high enough praise to save my neck from the guillotine.

Fear not, I would never use a blade, I do not like blood. I'd just sit you down and let you listen to the litany of his achievements, his firstests and bestest and mostests, competitively... and then after oh, ages (I do not have a little list, and I can wax lyrical with the best of Lord High Executioners) and you are just drawing breath... start on the same for professionally And I imagine that you could do the same to me were I to breathe a criticism of Michelle.

Go, Netherlands! We need more footwork close-ups on television

Yes, the complaints about cameramen insisting on not filming feet, we all have them.

 

[AxelLover]

Patrick Chan gets an A+ for skating skills, but he was not the tip top of the heap in terms of number and variety of quads presented (sorry Tracy Wilson, that's just a fact. Chan never did as many quads as Tim Goebel did back in 2002 while losing to Yagudin and Plushenko -- sorry, Tim Goebel fans).

While what you are saying is true, I still consider Patrick to be one of the quad pioneers in the sense that it was him who re-established quad toes as something that can be pretty consistently done with excellent quality. Yes, there were more quads in 2002, but since then the number of quads in programes of the top skaters kept decreasing until it hit the rock bottom in 2008-2010. At that time a clean-ish free program containing two quads was almost unthinkable. None of the world (or Olympic) champions in 2008, 2009 and 2010 had a clean quad in their winning routines.

To put it shortly, Patrick's contribution to the sport in terms of quads was that he brought back to normal something that had been lost

 

[Magill]

True. No matter how hard you try you can never compliment a skater lavishly enough to satisfy partisans. You must use the exact words that they require. (Not just Patrick, of course.)

Patrick Chan gets an A+ for skating skills, but he was not the tip top of the heap in terms of number and variety of quads presented (sorry Tracy Wilson, that's just a fact. Chan never did as many quads as Tim Goebel did back in 2002 while losing to Yagudin and Plushenko -- sorry, Tim Goebel fans). Nathan Chen gets an A+ for most quads of different kinds. and A- in skating skills (help, help, the Nathan Chen fans are after me now!) Malinin so far the same. Hanyu -- I don't dare say he was a fine skater in all respects -- that is not high enough praise to save my neck from the guillotine.

Myself, I am still working on my lifelong project to compose the definitive ode to Michelle Kwan -- the poem that has so much flowery language that it will sweep all rival odes to Michelle Kwan from the stage. (Sorry, Sasha Cohen fans.)

Anyway, back on topic , these changes will not help or hurt any skater. Malinin will not face greater difficulties if the new rules pass or if they don't, nor will he enjoy smoother sledding going forward either way. Neither will Jason Brown. All skaters will do everything they can to maximize their point totals. They can consult the appropriate scale-of-values documents if they are in doubt about how to do that.

And Adam SH Fa will do backflips whether "allowed" or not (channeling Surya Bonaly).

I must admit I truly admire your firm stance between and above all the warring fractions of FS fandom So, no , no guillotine for you on this end, just

 

[Mathman]

since 2002 the number of quads in programes of the top skaters kept decreasing until it hit the rock bottom in 2008-2010.

Well...at 2008 Worlds there were 10 quad toes in the men's free program, 8 iat 2009 Worlds, and 11 in the free skate at the 2010 Olympics. Even Johnny Weir did one (sort of).

Just like today, not all quads were of of excellent quality. but some were in combination and some programs featured two quad toes. I would not say that the quad had been forgotten until Patrick recovered it from the dustbin.

To me, Chan's claim to fame was that he was already an accomplished skater, who was then able to put the cherry on top by introducing a quad into his programs fairly late in his career.This in fact was opposite from the trajectory of most champions, who burst onto the scene with big guns blazing and then add the finess of complementary skills later.

 

[lariko]

Suppose that the ISU decided to keep the "well-balanced free skate" with 6 or 7 jumping passes, as the final phase of a combined SP+FS event or as a standalone event.

And then also to introduce a brand new discipline called Ice Jumping.

What kind of rules would you like to see for an Ice Jumping competition? How long would the programs be and how many jumps would be allowed? Should it include music? Program component scores? Any technical elements other than jumps? What would be most fun for a fan to watch who loves jumps and is bored by in-between skating?

Ice Jumping = rules of Russian ice jumping tournament. It was perfect this year. The best event this year. Absolutely outstanding! Though maybe somehow one less round, because by the last round guys looked tired enough to make fatigue based mistakes. Also, shows how much more entertaining it is because the exhibition programs competition was like two orders of maginitude less interesting, despite balancing choreo in oodles with jumping. Jumping tournament offered the grid where the skaters went directly against one another, fast and flashy, very exciting, something the figure skating actually needs.

And, the combos and cascades shown in this tournament were so, so fun! I had an absolute blast. You never ever get to see combos like that, because nobody puts them in exhibition. And it would be dangerous in stroking light. But omg, those cascades!

Obviously, unlike the Russians, the ISU can't put women into it with men, except Shimada, but, well...anything is better than nothing, and maybe it will give women incentive to jump, because in Russian show Bazylyuk was an undeniable star. Yes, in a jumping tournament. Yes, with senior men participating. And, like, Popov won silver by jumping 4S and 4T versus higher quads.

 

[icewhite]

Ice Jumping = rules of Russian ice jumping tournament. It was perfect this year. The best event this year. Also, shows how much more entertaining it is because the exhibition programs competition was like two orders of maginitude less interesting, despite balancing choreo with jumping.

The Russian show program event was a disaster, not sure it had to be.
Maybe for you (and the Russians) the jumping tournament was very interesting, but me, I would not have watched had there not been skaters taking part I already know and appreciate from normal skating. I wonder, do you also watch other similar sports, like diving, trampolin, long jump, high jump...?