Solène Mazingue pursues legal action for sexual assault

[el henry]

There is a large difference between saying "I'm not sure what the involvement of XYZ coaching team is" and "OMG you're brushing it off you're enabling abusers you don't care about victims (and subtext, I do care and you don't)". Sorry, but if I say the first, I reject the second characterization.

@4everchan raises a good point. I have worked with organizations with detailed procedures for dealing with claims of abuse. When a claim is brought forward, a complainant is assigned an advisor. The Advisor is for moral and emotional support, or directing them to appropriate resources, helping them navigate those resources. the Advisor is not paid or directed by the organization, although they are familiar with the structure. They should not be involved in representing complainants during the proceedings, that would be another person selected solely by the complainant, if desired. BTW, the accused is also assigned an advisor.

This has worked well and the complainants with whom I am familiar have found the advisors to be supportive and helpful. The complainants and accused are of course free to reject the advisor and not required to work with them.

It would be wonderful if figure skating had the resources for this kind of position (or volunteers willing to accept the role. For example, someone like Gracie Gold could volunteer to serve as an advisor).

 

[ajingmarg]

I don't know why, but these two last cases of Solene and Olivia have really hit me hard. I have been a fan of the sport for 26 years now, casaual at first, but the more involved I've become the more aware I am of the ugly side of sport....abuse, eating disorders, "golden boy" culture, politics etc. As I'm heading of to Nepela Memorial today it just occured to me that we talk about culture, about abuse from coaches, partners, about parents who close their eyes over borderline criminal behaviour only so their kid can be the next big thing, but as Karoltyna mentioned we barely talk about fans being part of the problem too.

When the Sorensen ban came in and IAM was mentioned in that connection, there was immediately flock of fans who brushed it off as it happened way before he came to IAM. Yet, IAM chose to do nothing until the ban, now we have two more recent cases tied to Montreal, we have confirmation from Gabrielle and Solene about the lack of support from their coaches. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this is IAM issue only, but still the school is still glorified by fans and ISU, the judges continue to give the skaters boost in scores for no reason other just because they are part of the training group and it just leaves bitter taste in my mouth, because something has to change. The sport just can't go on like this anymore. The predators have to be gone and I believe we as fans should be part of the change. I really hope both Solene and Olivia will get justice, that the people who assaulted them will receive a harsh penalty and ban from the sport.

You pay coaches to coach you.

If Gabrielle wanted support, she needed to look for psychologists.

Her coaches are not obligated to deal with her pregnancy.

 

[TallyT]

You pay coaches to coach you.

If Gabrielle wanted support, she needed to look for psychologists.

Her coaches are not obligated to deal with her pregnancy.

.....which attitude is part of why we have such an appalling crisis in ice dance.

 

[ajingmarg]

.....which attitude is part of why we have such an appalling crisis in ice dance.why

.....which attitude is part of why we have such an appalling crisis in ice dance.

And it wouldn't be professional to for coaches to "solve" Pregnancy problems of their students.

Who are the coaches to their students?

 

[TallyT]

And it wouldn't be professional to for coaches to "solve" Pregnancy problems of their students.

Who are the coaches to their students?

Well, if they are going to try and sell the public a 'one big happy family' package, they can at least try to care that they have failed to provide a safe coaching environment for their students.

Blocking you now, so you needn't bother with more handwaving.

 

[IceDancingQueen]

And it wouldn't be professional to for coaches to "solve" Pregnancy problems of their students.

Who are the coaches to their students?

I don’t think Gabby expected her coaches to solve her problem but maybe she was expecting a bit more empathy and moral support from them and from Guillaume. Of course Guillaume and coaches are focused on skating and winning but it is the lack of empathy towards skaters and victims that keeps the toxic culture going in sports and organisations.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I don’t think Gabby expected her coaches to solve her problem but maybe she was expecting a bit more empathy and moral support from them and from Guillaume. Of course Guillaume and coaches are focused on skating and winning but it is the lack of empathy towards skaters and victims that keeps the toxic culture going in sports and organisations.

Don't bother trying to have a conversation with the poster you are replying to, they are not interested. They have their worldview and made it very clear that they are not on the market to be open about taking into account other opinions.

 

[yyzskater]

And it wouldn't be professional to for coaches to "solve" Pregnancy problems of their students.

Who are the coaches to their students?

She wasn't asking for her coaches to "solve" her problem. She stated there wasn't any support after the fact. And while coaches are not required to do anything more than coach, you would expect them to be supportive of the skater if they were going through any type of hardship whether it be from a concussion recovery, post abortion, family tragedy mental health issue, etc. The fact that the lack of support revolves around a pregnancy/abortion is irrelevant. It would be just as appalling if they had not been supportive of her recovery after any medical procedure. And she has every right to be disappointed by the lack support and empathy by her "skating family" especially considering the narrative IAM pushes about their school.

It's hypocritical to call out the lack of IAM coaches support for Solene after her ordeal and not for Gabby. Their students turned to them in their time of need and both were let down. They have a right to be hurt and disappointed

 

[ajingmarg]

She wasn't asking for her coaches to "solve" her problem. She stated there wasn't any support after the fact. And while coaches are not required to do anything more than coach, you would expect them to be supportive of the skater if they were going through any type of hardship whether it be from a concussion recovery, post abortion, family tragedy mental health issue, etc. The fact that the lack of support revolves around a pregnancy/abortion is irrelevant. It would be just as appalling if they had not been supportive of her recovery after any medical procedure. And she has every right to be disappointed by the lack support and empathy by her "skating family" especially considering the narrative IAM pushes about their school.

It's hypocritical to call out the lack of IAM coaches support for Solene after her ordeal and not for Gabby. Their students turned to them in their time of need and both were let down. They have a right to be hurt and disappointed

Court case not for I AM

Court case for the male skater

 

[yyzskater]

Court case not for I AM

Court case for the male skater

I should have listened to @Jumping_Bean

 

[Ziotic]

Well, if they are going to try and sell the public a 'one big happy family' package, they can at least try to care that they have failed to provide a safe coaching environment for their students.

Blocking you now, so you needn't bother with more handwaving.

I’m not sure they sell us a “big happy family” package.

It’s been mentioned how tense the environment was when V/M came back.

I also don’t know how the coaches should be held responsible for what actions adults are taking in their personal lives.

I wouldn’t expect my boss to be responsible for the emotional fallout associated with this. Maybe HR depending on the situation, but even then, not the HR person themselves but referring me to someone who can help?

 

[yyzskater]

I’m not sure they sell us a “big happy family” package.

It’s been mentioned how tense the environment was when V/M came back.

I also don’t know how the coaches should be held responsible for what actions adults are taking in their personal lives.

I wouldn’t expect my boss to be responsible for the emotional fallout associated with this. Maybe HR depending on the situation, but even then, not the HR person themselves but referring me to someone who can help?

But what it HR told you to basically get over it and get back to work? Asking for support doesn't necessarily mean asking them to stand in for a therapist or whatever they needed. In any of the situations that has arised at IAM (Sorenson, Solene, Gabby, etc), the issue seems to be a lack of empathy and putting the sport before the athlete. No one is asking them to fix a concussion, that is for the doctors. But it certainly would not be acceptable for them to push a skater suffering from a concussion to continue skating before getting the proper treatment. The same expectation for physical health should be applied to mental health as well. Especially considering how much of a mental sport figure skating is.

 

[Ziotic]

But what it HR told you to basically get over it and get back to work? Asking for support doesn't necessarily mean asking them to stand in for a therapist or whatever they needed. In any of the situations that has arised at IAM (Sorenson, Solene, Gabby, etc), the issue seems to be a lack of empathy and putting the sport before the athlete. No one is asking them to fix a concussion, that is for the doctors. But it certainly would not be acceptable for them to push a skater suffering from a concussion to continue skating before getting the proper treatment. The same expectation for physical health should be applied to mental health as well. Especially considering how much of a mental sport figure skating is.

I agree that mental and physical health should be equal and I don’t feel you are treating them equal in this instance.

a doctor is going to tell them that a team can’t train because of a concussion and then tbe coaches abide. The coach isn’t sending the team to the doctor that’s on the team/athletes themselves.

If a team/athlete is showing up to work, outside factors shouldn’t be a factor.

If an athlete/team isn’t mentally prepared to train they shouldn’t be there.

 

[yyzskater]

I agree that mental and physical health should be equal and I don’t feel you are treating them equal in this instance.

a doctor is going to tell them that a team can’t train because of a concussion and then tbe coaches abide. The coach isn’t sending the team to the doctor that’s on the team/athletes themselves.

If a team/athlete is showing up to work, outside factors shouldn’t be a factor.

If an athlete/team isn’t mentally prepared to train they shouldn’t be there.

I have literally seen skaters have bad falls on their heads (singles, pairs and dance) and after a few minutes on the bench, coaches have them back on the ice. Or if they do go off the ice, come back the next day. Because unfortunately, doctors won't do any do image testing unless it's considered a high risk fall (over 5 feet) or they have severe symptoms like vomiting. And without image testing, doctors can't say conclusively if they have a concussion. But common sense would dictate that they should take some more time off. So for me, I would hope the coaches would take a more thoughtful approach other than "I'll coach whoever shows up".

I know my daughter's coach has cut her lessons short when she wasn't feeling well (mentally or physically). She obviously didn't have to since she is losing money by cutting the lesson short but she put my daughter's well being first.

Again, maybe I just expect more from a coach/skater relationship. But either way, the skaters obviously didn't feel supported for whatever reason and how they feel is all that matters since its their situation to handle. Wishing everyone well on their healing process.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I’m not sure they sell us a “big happy family” package.

They do try to portray themselves like this though. Their social media posts are full of wordings that evoke a "family-like" feeling (for example, they welcome new teams as "additions to the I.AM family") and both coaches and skaters alike do the same in interviews. Often, new skaters even stay with older skaters and their families until they can find their own place to live.

I wouldn’t expect my boss to be responsible for the emotional fallout associated with this. Maybe HR depending on the situation, but even then, not the HR person themselves but referring me to someone who can help?

Coaches are not bosses, in many ways they are actually the employees in this situation and not the other way around. There's also a significant amount of trust a skater has to have in their coach that an employee does not need to have in their employer, and skaters and coaches work much more closely together for extensive periods of time. Marjorie Lajoie for example has worked with IAM coaches since she was 14, she's been training under them for almost half of her skating career at this point - That's not the kind of length of work relationship most 23-year-olds have with their bosses.

The coach isn’t sending the team to the doctor that’s on the team/athletes themselves.

No, it is just as much on the coach. Coaches know their students in and out, they can see when someone is struggling (physically and mentally) and it is also on them to prevent further harm from coming to the athletes (and especially in partnered disciplines also to their partner or any other teams on ice - Distracted skaters are dangerous skaters.)

If a team/athlete is showing up to work, outside factors shouldn’t be a factor.
If an athlete/team isn’t mentally prepared to train they shouldn’t be there.

That's just not how humans work as many, many studies show (even completely disregarding that skating also isn't just a job, but the whole life for many skaters from a very young age).

 

[Ziotic]

They do try to portray themselves like this though. Their social media posts are full of wordings that evoke a "family-like" feeling (for example, they welcome new teams as "additions to the I.AM family") and both coaches and skaters alike do the same in interviews. Often, new skaters even stay with older skaters and their families until they can find their own place to live.

Coaches are not bosses, in many ways they are actually the employees in this situation and not the other way around. There's also a significant amount of trust a skater has to have in their coach that an employee does not need to have in their employer, and skaters and coaches work much more closely together for extensive periods of time. Marjorie Lajoie for example has worked with IAM coaches since she was 14, she's been training under them for almost half of her skating career at this point - That's not the kind of length of work relationship most 23-year-olds have with their bosses.

No, it is just as much on the coach. Coaches know their students in and out, they can see when someone is struggling (physically and mentally) and it is also on them to prevent further harm from coming to the athletes (and especially in partnered disciplines also to their partner or any other teams on ice - Distracted skaters are dangerous skaters.)

That's just not how humans work as many, many studies show (even completely disregarding that skating also isn't just a job, but the whole life for many skaters from a very young age).

I think we will have to disagreed on the dynamics, specifically with adult skaters.

Which in itself is why there are differing opinions about level of support offered/required.

In the situations you listed I would even akin a coach to a contractor, paid for a specific service and therefore even further removed from personal issues.

I realize there are nuances to the coach/student relationship. I still ultimately don’t feel the responsibility lies with the coaches, again specifically relating to adult athletes.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I think we will have to disagreed on the dynamics, specifically with adult skaters.

Which in itself is why there are differing opinions about level of support offered/required.

In the situations you listed I would even akin a coach to a contractor, paid for a specific service and therefore even further removed from personal issues.

I realize there are nuances to the coach/student relationship. I still ultimately don’t feel the responsibility lies with the coaches, again specifically relating to adult athletes.

Maybe it's how I was raised, but I personally think it's the responsibility of every decent human being to offer support if they see someone struggling and also to at least attempt to keep people from putting themselves and those around them into dangerous situations. And considering the code of ethics for coaches (in Canada, but also in other countries), they especially also have this responsibility.

We are living in a society that keeps on screaming about the lack of support for mental health issues, about how horrible it is how high the suicide rates are, how mental illnesses should be destigmatised and that even tries to explain away all violent crime as the work of mentally ill people if it fits the agenda, but simultaneously nobody sees themselves as responsible for reaching out and offering support. Nobody cares unless the unfathomable happens, and then everyone screams again about how nobody could have foreseen this and how they should have asked for help.

Nobody is legally obligated to help an elderly person over the street, nobody is legally obligated to help a friend in need, there's not even a duty to rescue law in many countries, but morally? Morally, there are way more extensive obligations than legally, and that's been the case since the beginning of human civilisation.

 

[ajingmarg]

Exathink we will have to disagreed on the dynamics, specifically with adult skaters.

Which in itself is why there are differing opinions about level of support offered/required.

In the situations you listed I would even akin a coach to a contractor, paid for a specific service and therefore even further removed from personal issues.

I realize there are nuances to the coach/student relationship. I still ultimately don’t feel the responsibility lies with the coaches, again specifically relating to adult athletes.

Exactly!

Adult athletes choose to go to training by themselves and they have the right to cut their practice short or stop the training session if they're not feeling well.

If they show up at the practice they should be ready to work fully.

 

[ajingmarg]

I have literally seen skaters have bad falls on their heads (singles, pairs and dance) and after a few minutes on the bench, coaches have them back on the ice. Or if they do go off the ice, come back the next day. Because unfortunately, doctors won't do any do image testing unless it's considered a high risk fall (over 5 feet) or they have severe symptoms like vomiting. And without image testing, doctors can't say conclusively if they have a concussion. But common sense would dictate that they should take some more time off. So for me, I would hope the coaches would take a more thoughtful approach other than "I'll coach whoever shows up".

I know my daughter's coach has cut her lessons short when she wasn't feeling well (mentally or physically). She obviously didn't have to since she is losing money by cutting the lesson short but she put my daughter's well being first.

Again, maybe I just expect more from a coach/skater relationship. But either way, the skaters obviously didn't feel supported for whatever reason and how they feel is all that matters since its their situation to handle. Wishing everyone well on their healing process.

It is a business relation between coach and athletes.

Why to expect more from a business relationship or a business partner?

Why should be skaters expect to feel they "should be emotionally supported by their coaches to some degree"?

 

[Karoltyna]

It is a business relation between coach and athletes.

Why to expect more from a business relationship or a business partner?

Why should be skaters expect to feel they "should be emotionally supported by their coaches to some degree"?

Because coaches are paid by skaters (or feds) and if skater expects that the paid service includes emotional support, they should get it. Aside from coaches creating public image of being supportive and caring towards the skaters.