2024-25 Senior Grand Prix Final Men's Free Skate

[lariko]

By the way, I am off the phone with Mom. She gave the GPF a solid C, I went with C minus.

 

[Karoltyna]

I take fun and competition over gorgeousness unless it triggers something very personally emotional in my soul. Like, ice dance has a lot of gorgeous, basically (save for Pasechnik) it's all about gorgeous. But very few dances click for me. Just like the prose can be gorgeous but the book is hopelessly boring. Ilia is basically DaVinci Code of figure skating, while Kagiyama is that upmarket novel nobody ever managed to get past page 12 but everyone says is very well written.

Wellp, I'm the one who didn't get past page 50 of DaVinci Code. At the same time I'm in sheer awe of Jon Fosse.

 

[Arigato]

Wellp, I'm the one who didn't get past page 50 of DaVinci Code. At the same time I'm in sheer awe of Jon Fosse.

I was on an airplane and closed the book on page one. Boring. Try American Psycho by Brett Easton Ellis.

 

[lariko]

Wellp, I'm the one who didn't get past page 50 of DaVinci Code. At the same time I'm in sheer awe of Jon Fosse.

Good for you.

 

[Kris135]

I am going say this Ilia desperately need more time to train because he needs time to get jumps to work properly. He been non-stop since worlds and needs to stop. I think if it not directly involving him defending his world title it needs to go. This skate was result of lack of training. He can do these jumps in his sleep. He left over 20 points on the table today. He is very lucky that he won today. He almost went to Poland because he knew he needed more time in the ice,he needs someone to stop all of the craziness and help him to stay sane.

 

[reader3]

Congrats to all the medalists and especially to Ilia for the gold. Yes, he has a few things to work on.

Nice FS from Yuma.

 

[cailuj365]

Ilia is certainly changing the game. Whether or not it ends up being good or not, is to see. I am a fan of much older skaters like Buttle, Lambiel and Chan. I miss the kind of edge quality they brought to skating. I don't see this in young Russians nor in Ilia's skating. So sure, history has been made and Ilia is a wonderful jumper (not today but in general) but that doesn't change what I like or not ?
Someone kept telling me I lived very close to the best dim sum restaurant and that I should give it a try... yet, I don't like dim sum so I never went. See what i mean ?

No worries, my last paragraph wasn't asking you to like Ilia. It's just how I think that skating will perceive Ilia in the future. Personally, I do think that what he does is a good thing, just as how Buttle/Lambiel/Chan's era of skating brought something that was also good. In 10-20 years, we will have quad-only skaters like Ilia but who also have Yuma's skating skills and Shoma's musicality and artistry, and that evolution and development to such a skater starts from here. He's like a prototype. To me, I think of one technical era being up through 2010-2012 where the most people did was 4T and 4S, and then one technical era being through 2023 where we saw 4F, 4Lz, 4Lo but not necessarily all from the same skater, and now I think of Ilia as the first of a new era. Doesn't mean he's the best or that he will even score the highest on any given day, but in my head, he's in a different era whereas his competitors are still from the previous era. Perhaps now Shaidorov has one foot in this new era given his -4T and -4S combos.

The way i see it, Ilia already skated clean in Montreal. He skated carefully in his gp events, paying attention to artistry. The grand Prix final is for him to have fun, and for him to have fun is to skate a program with every quad. He knows the event attracts a lot of fans (or as much as could be found nowadays). He gives a show and something new and crazy and shoot for the stars. Same as Shaidorov who rapidly picked up popularity and on whose behalf the arena booed the judges--that's a huge one for him, coming from Kazakstan with no fed and no nobody to promo him. Perhaps, focusing on something other than winning gold or attaining a particular score that doesn't depend on the skater is a psychological excersise that helps with mental fortitude, redirecting the mental energy. Now Ilia who pulled it out of his backside somehow with URs has a new goal to repeat this skate, but clean for Boston.

Basically, they are young, charismatic, full of piss and blaster and they use it. Imo, good for them.

Totally agree. Well said. I still think he needs to re-examine this layout, because the success rate seems very low with his underrotation issues, but I always come back to the interview of Ilia at his first GPF where they ask him what he'd rather do - win the Olympics or land a quint. His answer was the latter. Or even his mini-interview with Jason Brown where they ask what his dream program layout -- the answer was all quints. This was well before he ever got any big senior titles, before any serious media training, before he even realized what he was capable of. Ilia's idea of fun is quads-only, land a quint (god help him), and dazzle the crowd. He's like 2/3 there...

 

[4everchan]

No worries, my last paragraph wasn't asking you to like Ilia. It's just how I think that skating will perceive Ilia in the future. Personally, I do think that what he does is a good thing, just as how Buttle/Lambiel/Chan's era of skating brought something that was also good. In 10-20 years, we will have quad-only skaters like Ilia but who also have Yuma's skating skills and Shoma's musicality and artistry, and that evolution and development to such a skater starts from here. He's like a prototype. To me, I think of one technical era being up through 2010-2012 where the most people did was 4T and 4S, and then one technical era being through 2023 where we saw 4F, 4Lz, 4Lo but not necessarily all from the same skater, and now I think of Ilia as the first of a new era. Doesn't mean he's the best or that he will even score the highest on any given day, but in my head, he's in a different era whereas his competitors are still from the previous era. Perhaps now Shaidorov has one foot in this new era given his -4T and -4S combos.



Totally agree. Well said. I still think he needs to re-examine this layout, because the success rate seems very low with his underrotation issues, but I always come back to the interview of Ilia at his first GPF where they ask him what he'd rather do - win the Olympics or land a quint. His answer was the latter. Or even his mini-interview with Jason Brown where they ask what his dream program layout -- the answer was all quints. This was well before he ever got any big senior titles, before any serious media training, before he even realized what he was capable of. Ilia's idea of fun is quads-only, land a quint (god help him), and dazzle the crowd. He's like 2/3 there...

I am not convinced. I think that it may be hard to convince young skaters and their coaches, to take the time to acquire wonderful skating skills when they indeed, all have to jump so many quads... I also believe that programs with too many quads look pretty much like jumping drills with not much in between. So those two things concern me greatly when it comes to the future of the sport.

It is to be seen if we get a shift back in a few years but I doubt we will and I also doubt that there will be many quadsters that are that successful... Maybe a handful every year if we are lucky.... but certainly, there will be other skaters with only one or two basic quads going to worlds every year... will they be rewarded if (and we are not even sure about that) their skating skills are superior to said quadsters ?

I'd be less of a grinch if judges truly divided TES and PCS and if PCS factoring was closer to the TES ceiling. My ideal skaters are well-rounded ones. I am happy to lose a couple quads to see a very beautifully skated program. For instance, when Jun is on, he has this beautiful lines, flexibility, gorgeous jumps and spins... or indeed, as you have mentioned, Shoma, with his genuine musicality. I guess we will have to wait and see how things evolve. I am glad you remain positive about all this, I have my doubts.

 

[lariko]

No worries, my last paragraph wasn't asking you to like Ilia. It's just how I think that skating will perceive Ilia in the future. Personally, I do think that what he does is a good thing, just as how Buttle/Lambiel/Chan's era of skating brought something that was also good. In 10-20 years, we will have quad-only skaters like Ilia but who also have Yuma's skating skills and Shoma's musicality and artistry, and that evolution and development to such a skater starts from here. He's like a prototype. To me, I think of one technical era being up through 2010-2012 where the most people did was 4T and 4S, and then one technical era being through 2023 where we saw 4F, 4Lz, 4Lo but not necessarily all from the same skater, and now I think of Ilia as the first of a new era. Doesn't mean he's the best or that he will even score the highest on any given day, but in my head, he's in a different era whereas his competitors are still from the previous era. Perhaps now Shaidorov has one foot in this new era given his -4T and -4S combos.



Totally agree. Well said. I still think he needs to re-examine this layout, because the success rate seems very low with his underrotation issues, but I always come back to the interview of Ilia at his first GPF where they ask him what he'd rather do - win the Olympics or land a quint. His answer was the latter. Or even his mini-interview with Jason Brown where they ask what his dream program layout -- the answer was all quints. This was well before he ever got any big senior titles, before any serious media training, before he even realized what he was capable of. Ilia's idea of fun is quads-only, land a quint (god help him), and dazzle the crowd. He's like 2/3 there...

Figure skating doesn't really bring enough money or glory for a skater to do what doesn't make them have one hell of a good time. To me, Ilia looked incredibly satisfied with his crazy skate, and I didn't see anyone come from the ice happier in men's competition. Yeah, maybe he had an oh, crap moment, when they tallied up URs, but i honestly think that even if they sunk him, his reaction would have been, Worth it! We had absolutely seen Malinin scale down when he had to and changing his layouts on the fly, and usually nailing his substitute jumps. He might not be a lyrical glider, but he knows what he does well and uses it. It's not just jumps, btw, he uses Ina Bauer because he can do it better than other guys, his spins are pretty neat, so he pushes the features on them too.

I am also in the 'listen to Nathan, and don't do it' camp on the quint. I mean, if they can one-up each other in the game of crazy combos, that's all great (I almost expect some insanity in Gala tomorrow), but yeah, I trust Chen's judgment on a quint, not doing it without a spring in the boot.

 

[TontoK]

Lord have mercy.

It wasn't his finest skate. We all get it. He came up short going for something NEVER ATTEMPTED IN THE HISTORY OF OUR SPORT with technical content beyond the capabilities of every athlete who has ever put on figure skates.

It was a groundbreaking effort, and even if I didn't enjoy the program compared to what we've seen in the past, it certainly doesn't merit the level of disdain and angst we're seeing here. Y'all are acting as though it were some epic meltdown. For goodness sakes, he still leaves France with a gold medal.

Do I hope he learns something from this? Sure. Maybe that's the need for technical content moderation. Maybe it's mental preparation. Maybe it's a recognition that he needs to up his efforts in cardio fitness. Who knows. But it wasn't some sort of career-altering disaster.

 

[lariko]

Lord have mercy.

It wasn't his finest skate. We all get it. He came up short going for something NEVER ATTEMPTED IN THE HISTORY OF OUR SPORT with technical content beyond the capabilities of every athlete who has ever put on figure skates.

It was a groundbreaking effort, and even if I didn't enjoy the program compared to what we've seen in the past, it certainly doesn't merit the level of disdain and angst we're seeing here. Y'all are acting as though it were some epic meltdown. For goodness sakes, he still leaves France with a gold medal.

Do I hope he learns something from this? Sure. Maybe that's the need for technical content moderation. Maybe it's mental preparation. Maybe it's a recognition that he needs to up his efforts in cardio fitness. Who knows. But it wasn't some sort of career-altering disaster.

No, we do not. I love him to bits and can't wait to see if the Gala has any shenanigans from him and Shaidorov/Grassl, since they all seem in the same kinda place. If they invite Shaidorov that is...that thought never occurred to me. They probably won't

 

[Mathman]

To me, it's not Ilia who should think this result over, but rather the ISU.

I am reminded of the fampus U.S.. bank robber of the 1930s, Willy Sutton. When they asked him, "why do you rob banks?" he replied, incredulous at the question, "That;s where the money is!"

 

[cailuj365]

I am not convinced. I think that it may be hard to convince young skaters and their coaches, to take the time to acquire wonderful skating skills when they indeed, all have to jump so many quads... I also believe that programs with too many quads look pretty much like jumping drills with not much in between. So those two things concern me greatly when it comes to the future of the sport.

It is to be seen if we get a shift back in a few years but I doubt we will and I also doubt that there will be many quadsters that are that successful... Maybe a handful every year if we are lucky....

Well, if the new rule holds, we'll have one less jumping pass in 2 years, so there will be time for more choreography and non-jumping elements too. In the future, I absolutely, absolutely know there will be more than one skater who can put everything all together with the biggest quads. And when there is more than one skater like this, that's where the skater with the superior skating skills, composition, beauty of movement, that's when all of that really matters, and that's why skaters will never not work on these things. Once Yuma gets his 4F down with consistency, he will start to win over Ilia, I am sure. Ilia knows this, and it's why he goes for broke and also now works on PCS side too.

but certainly, there will be other skaters with only one or two basic quads going to worlds every year... will they be rewarded if (and we are not even sure about that) their skating skills are superior to said quadsters ?

They won't be rewarded with many medals in competitive figure skating anymore unless others make mistakes. Nor should they at this point. That technical era has passed 10-15 years ago. They will still be rewarded with many fans.

Figure skating doesn't really bring enough money or glory for a skater to do what doesn't make them have one hell of a good time. To me, Ilia looked incredibly satisfied with his crazy skate, and I didn't see anyone come from the ice happier in men's competition. Yeah, maybe he had an oh, crap moment, when they tallied up URs, but i honestly think that even if they sunk him, his reaction would have been, Worth it! We had absolutely seen Malinin scale down when he had to and changing his layouts on the fly, and usually nailing his substitute jumps. He might not be a lyrical glider, but he knows what he does well and uses it. It's not just jumps, btw, he uses Ina Bauer because he can do it better than other guys, his spins are pretty neat, so he pushes the features on them too.

I am also in the 'listen to Nathan, and don't do it' camp on the quint. I mean, if they can one-up each other in the game of crazy combos, that's all great (I almost expect some insanity in Gala tomorrow), but yeah, I trust Chen's judgment on a quint, not doing it without a spring in the boot.

Yeah, I'm also not interested in quints. The sport is not there yet, and despite what he says about it looking promising, I don't think he's there yet either. And yes, he was very, very pleased during his interview, very proud of himself, felt like he knocked it out of the park, "felt amazing" (his words). I do think this is Ilia's experimentation year, figuring out what his limits are, what the judges want to see from him, what he likes he in his own skating, etc. It's fun to watch him learn this in real time.

 

[Zora]

Yuma's program is amazing! I might be a bit biased because the music is in some parts so so beautiful, in other parts so exciting, so I feel like I would enjoy any skater skating to it, but Yuma also uses every part perfectly and you can tell how much work he put into that. Loooved his step sequence, he stayed so much in character, all the little details.

 

[4everchan]

Well, if the new rule holds, we'll have one less jumping pass in 2 years, so there will be time for more choreography and non-jumping elements too. In the future, I absolutely, absolutely know there will be more than one skater who can put everything all together with the biggest quads. And when there is more than one skater like this, that's where the skater with the superior skating skills, composition, beauty of movement, that's when all of that really matters, and that's why skaters will never not work on these things. Once Yuma gets his 4F down with consistency, he will start to win over Ilia, I am sure. Ilia knows this, and it's why he goes for broke and also now works on PCS side too.


They won't be rewarded with many medals in competitive figure skating anymore unless others make mistakes. Nor should they at this point. That technical era has passed 10-15 years ago. They will still be rewarded with many fans.

I think it's fair that guys who skated like 10 years ago aren't rewarded with medals in the current state of the sport. Even post 2015, guys usually needed more than 1 or 2 quads to win big medals.

All I am asking is that if guys with big TES get their reward, guys who are PCS skilled get theirs too. I don't even mind if in the end, guys with bigger TES and average PCS win over a guy with average TES and better PCS. It's a sport after all. I just want fair judging for both sides.

 

[cailuj365]

I am going say this Ilia desperately need more time to train because he needs time to get jumps to work properly. He been non-stop since worlds and needs to stop. I think if it not directly involving him defending his world title it needs to go. This skate was result of lack of training. He can do these jumps in his sleep. He left over 20 points on the table today. He is very lucky that he won today. He almost went to Poland because he knew he needed more time in the ice,he needs someone to stop all of the craziness and help him to stay sane.

I don't think he left 20 points on the table. Leaving points on the table would be if he ended up popping multiple quads or missed his combos. He went for it all, but he was just not very clean. That's fair, though I think some of these q's were harsh in this competition. Also, I cannot imagine that Ilia ever actually intended to go to Poland.

 

[TontoK]

I think it's fair that guys who skated like 10 years ago aren't rewarded with medals in the current state of the sport. Even post 2015, guys usually needed more than 1 or 2 quads to win big medals.

All I am asking is that if guys with big TES get their reward, guys who are PCS skilled get theirs too. I don't even mind if in the end, guys with bigger TES and average PCS win over a guy with average TES and better PCS. It's a sport after all. I just want fair judging for both sides.

Ilia had the highest PCS in the short program, and the second highest in the long. So you got your wish.

Look, the guy isn't ever going to be the artiste some think he should become, but that doesn't mean he's not delivering his own brand in terms of components. As much as I'm not a big fan of the music, at least he's being authentic to himself. As so long as he's hitting the PCS criteria, he's going to be fine, and rightfully so.

And by PCS criteria, I do not mean "the type of skating I enjoy the most." Ted and Mark expounded on this in the free dance when discussing the Italians' robot program. Essentially, it doesn't matter what individuals may prefer, it's about whether they hit the PCS bullet points.

 

[msteach3]

Ilia is pushing himself and the sport. Sure, he didn't skate clean today, but to throw in all those quads? Wow. His jumping talent is unmatched. I'm not a fan of the program, per se. I find his short much better as far as the music and composition, but he obviously enjoys the concept of this free skate. Good for him! That should be what it is all about.

I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about here. Ilia made mistakes, but attempted something no one ever has. Of course it's going to be a bit messy! His dad/coach seemed pleased and so did he. He didn't shake his head at the scores, or get up and stomp out. He knew. Give him a break people! I have complete confidence he'll do great in Boston, and lucky me, I'll be there!

 

[reader3]

Well said, @TontoK and @msteach3 !

 

[msteach3]

He almost went to Poland because he knew he needed more time in the ice,he needs someone to stop all of the craziness and help him to stay sane.

Ilia is a double gold medalist on the Grand Prix and the best skater in the world. Why on earth would he go to Poland?

What craziness? Do you mean pulling out athletic feats that no other skater has ever done? Do you mean jumping into the air and rotating 4 1/2 times and landing easily on one foot? Do you mean staying fairly injury free, even with all the above? Do you mean being the current World and Grand Prix champion? What exactly do you mean?