2025 Junior Worlds: Info and pre-game chat | Page 2 | Golden Skate

2025 Junior Worlds: Info and pre-game chat

They don't want world standing points. They want prize money
I remember when Sui/Han competed at both the Junior and Senior Grand Prix winning multiple medals in both series (2010-11 and 2011-12). ISU rules were subsequently changed to prevent that going forward. Not sure if they were the only reason for the rule change but in my memory, it was certainly mentioned at the time.

Should that "Grand Prix" rule be extended to ISU championship competitions (or all ISU competitions)? I doubt that it was get much support from the bigger skating nations. So, while seeing the Georgia pair show up at Junior Worlds this season seems inherently wrong and a bit disgusting given their previous junior and senior successes, not sure that we can be really upset when other competitors flip back and forth all the time.
 
I remember when Sui/Han competed at both the Junior and Senior Grand Prix winning multiple medals in both series (2010-11 and 2011-12). ISU rules were subsequently changed to prevent that going forward. Not sure if they were the only reason for the rule change but in my memory, it was certainly mentioned at the time.

Should that "Grand Prix" rule be extended to ISU championship competitions (or all ISU competitions)? I doubt that it was get much support from the bigger skating nations. So, while seeing the Georgia pair show up at Junior Worlds this season seems inherently wrong and a bit disgusting given their previous junior and senior successes, not sure that we can be really upset when other competitors flip back and forth all the time
Fair. I still do not like it ... They change the age rules.. which allowed for this... But didn't think it through...I'd be ok if they had not won the year before... Excluding winners would be enough for me...
 
I remember when Sui/Han competed at both the Junior and Senior Grand Prix winning multiple medals in both series (2010-11 and 2011-12). ISU rules were subsequently changed to prevent that going forward. Not sure if they were the only reason for the rule change but in my memory, it was certainly mentioned at the time.

Should that "Grand Prix" rule be extended to ISU championship competitions (or all ISU competitions)? I doubt that it was get much support from the bigger skating nations. So, while seeing the Georgia pair show up at Junior Worlds this season seems inherently wrong and a bit disgusting given their previous junior and senior successes, not sure that we can be really upset when other competitors flip back and forth all the time.
I'm in favour of making some kind of rule about it since Metelkina/Berulava aren't the only Senior ISU championship medalists who've competed at Junior Worlds. Kao Miura and Kimmy Repond both competed at Junior Worlds after their respective 4CC and European medals.

Right now with JGP spot allocations based on Junior World placements, federations are incentivized to make assignments like this. There should be some sort of balance, but I agree about not seeing the larger federations going for it.
 
oh... Vlaclavik was among the favourites (or am I confusing him with someone else)... so that's tough news

Ok.. well... I had the feeling the flag wasn't the good one for the Vaclavik I was thinking about... and yeah... he is safe. Two Vaclaviks.. one w/d but the one who did well at JGP is still skating..

PHEW
Yes, you are getting them muddled. They are brothers. One represents Slovakia and the other Czechia. One parent is from each country, so it's perfectly legal. It means that they are not competing for the same spots on a national team. Lukas Vaclavik represents Slovakia and he is the one who competed in the JGPF. I'm not sure that he is a favourite for the title, though. That is likely to go to either Japan or the USA and, from the Slovakian entries, I would expect Adam Hagara to place above Lukas Vaclavik.
 
ugh at the Georgians for showing up this year when they have exclusively been doing senior events, and won last year. That should be illegal.
It also means that other nations, who do have better depth in pairs may get less spots for next year JGPs or JWC considering they will definitely take first place.

It's very hard to remain nice about this one. I will just scream out loud how I feel, so only my next door neighbours hear it and that way, I will preserve the decency of this post.
I was annoyed when I saw that they had entered, but not surprised. I don't think it is fair on those who are genuinely junior competitors.

What did surprise me was my reaction to Adam Hagara being on the entries. I like Adam (which I'm afraid is not something I can say about the Georgian pair) and was annoyed that he was entered when he is really an established senior now. That was my reaction despite Adam having competed on the JGP this season, and I am the same with Holichenko and Darenskyi - and, yes, I am even more cross about the Georgians, who competed on the senior GP not the junior one.
 
I was annoyed when I saw that they had entered, but not surprised. I don't think it is fair on those who are genuinely junior competitors.

What did surprise me was my reaction to Adam Hagara being on the entries. I like Adam (which I'm afraid is not something I can say about the Georgian pair) and was annoyed that he was entered when he is really an established senior now. That was my reaction despite Adam having competed on the JGP this season, and I am the same with Holichenko and Darenskyi - and, yes, I am even more cross about the Georgians, who competed on the senior GP not the junior one.
Maybe that is the rule change that is easy to defend. If a skater / team competes at a senior GP event then no Junior Worlds. I am okay with those who test the senior B waters to see how competitive they are but competing at a senior GP means you are a competitive senior skater and not a junior one.
 
I'm in favour of making some kind of rule about it since Metelkina/Berulava aren't the only Senior ISU championship medalists who've competed at Junior Worlds. Kao Miura and Kimmy Repond both competed at Junior Worlds after their respective 4CC and European medals.

Right now with JGP spot allocations based on Junior World placements, federations are incentivized to make assignments like this. There should be some sort of balance, but I agree about not seeing the larger federations going for it.
I mean, everyone was okay with Miura, Grassl, Golubeva/Moore or Repond going to JGP, Eu/4CC and JWC combos, so why the problem starts with M/B?
 
I mean, everyone was okay with Miura, Grassl, Golubeva/Moore or Repond going to JGP, Eu/4CC and JWC combos, so why the problem starts with M/B?
It didn't start with M/B for me. It's something I have been uncomfortable with for a while. I am okay with skaters having a transition season where they compete a both levels through the season. I don't think it should be two or three seasons, though, and I am not comfortable with skaters who only compete as seniors during the season suddenly doing junior Worlds. I didn't agree with it when Kaiya Ruiter or Wesley Chiu did it either, and felt that they took spots away from junior skaters who had earnt them (Uliana should have gone to junior worlds last season, in my opinion, not Kaiya). I wouldn't be a happy if Isabeau Levito had suddenly popped up in juniors this season because, whilst she is age eligible for both categories, she is an established senior skater.
 
My beef is with the following.

If you are able to win senior GP medals and ISU championship medals... then you shouldn't be doing junior worlds. I don't care who it is.

I understand that Wesley or Kaiya perhaps took the place of other more juniorish skaters but they were still themselves in a developmental zone.... just like Gauthier and Thieren are for instance. I don't have a problem with the Ukrainians coming back either...

I would have a problem if Isabeau or Ilia came back to junior worlds when being clearly strong enough to compete with the seniors... just like clearly, I have a problem with the Georgians.

I have absolutely no issues with someone like Jacob Sanchez testing the waters in the senior challengers, even him winning that event, and then coming to Junior worlds because, he is still a developing skater as well, not close to podium at his senior nationals nor having won senior medals on the GP/ISU championship.

It is aggravating to me with the Georgians because it's two years in a row and they could come back next year too... and all this does is perhaps killing the chance for pairs from other countries to earn a 3rd or a 2nd spot for JWC next year, when they could need it.
 
I mean, everyone was okay with Miura, Grassl, Golubeva/Moore or Repond going to JGP, Eu/4CC and JWC combos, so why the problem starts with M/B?
No, everyone was not okay with that. I generally don’t like switch hitters and think rules need to be changed to prevent it. I sounded off about Miura’s selection to Junior Worlds a few years ago and my complaints started as soon as Japan named the team. I even wrote a letter to JFed about it, but I had other issues with their team selections that year. If a skater hasn’t even competed on the junior level, competed on the (senior) Grand Prix, and is competitive at the senior level, they have no business at Junior Worlds.

…But I still see your point. I’m sure there are people that were fine with it before and suddenly have a problem with it now, meaning it’s not the action itself, but the people behind it.
 
Figure skating competitions are a risky business. This is the way to minimize this risk, so people are appalled for skaters chosing a canary in a cage over the crane flying in the sky, acting pragmatic. It was done for years, on all levels, and being specifically more against it when the athletes have a higher chance to win is illogical. Excessive games with age limits that try to target one thing but end up impacting something else is what landed us in this situation, disadvanatging a lot of skaters in a variety of ways, which was intended and hailed as a huge win for the sport. But, wow! It also gives advantage to others.

Competing is one way of how they earn their living, so yeah, they have every right to maximize their earnings because it's not like most of them are salaried. Skaters are a 'diva' and hustle field, where most scrape by, and only selected few earn fairly well. They don't have the prospect of the minimal starting salary in mind when they chose to even stay in seniors. Which is when the rest of the people of their age chose their career path.

Plus, raising the stakes in junior competition is great. If others want to win, they simply have to be hungrier and better. For all we know, the Chinese couple would beat M/B, given how unstable M/B are. The junior ice dance this season is choke-full of the worst of seniors from deep pool countries winning over the best of juniors. Pairs and men can and will absolutely do the same. Men did it forever, with 19 yo beating 13 yo anyway.

I mean, enjoy your overall older competitors, longer periods in juniors and longer careers. But, like, keep in mind, that creates more grown ups who have to earn their living somehow while training 6 days a week
 
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I have criticized also other selections. For example I did it when Finland sent 19-year-old Linnea Ceder some years ago. She would not even have had junior minimums without covid but she could use 2 season old minimums because of it. Finland would have had several real juniors to send. This and last season the rules have been changed: At least one score must be earned from international junior competition, while two best scores combined together counts. I think it is a good rule. One can be senior but it will be decreased by -5 points. That time it was -3, which was too low decreason. IMO The highest age limit in pairs/ID men is much too high. Sometimes small federations may have only one skater who has minimums for both WC and JWC, but so is life. I would allow 4cc and European skaters to JWC, but WC and JWC, no same skaters. And if you skate in senior GP, then no JWC, that would be a good rule
 
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ugh at the Georgians for showing up this year when they have exclusively been doing senior events, and won last year. That should be illegal.
It also means that other nations, who do have better depth in pairs may get less spots for next year JGPs or JWC considering they will definitely take first place.

It's very hard to remain nice about this one. I will just scream out loud how I feel, so only my next door neighbours hear it and that way, I will preserve the decency of this post.
It's predictable you wouldn't approve of what they have chosen to do within the rules.

Pairs is already a terrible standard, this gives it more depth and maturity which is one of the aims of the age rule.

This is an age appropriate partnership of a 22 and 19 year old, within the rules set by the ISU.

Not like two years ago when the winners were a 14 year old girl and a guy days away from turning age 21!

That should be illegal!
 
ISU member countries all will jump at the chance to vote for a rule that forbids them to use a skater who has the most potential to win and giving them two shots at it instead of one, right. They are fast to vote in oddly specific rules that limit a specific skater or a country, but not so fast about disadvantaging all of their members.
 
Luka Berulava answered why they were doing it in their mixed zone interview:

They wouldn't actually gain any world standing points by doing it for their Senior standings. The Europeans bronze is more than the Junior Worlds gold. It would only help their Junior standings since only Junior competitions count for those. That only helps if they're planning on competing in it again next season, on top of Europeans, the Olympics and Worlds (they'll be eligible for one more season after this one.)

I understand why the ISU raised the age limit, to help teams have a longer time to develop before moving up to senior. But teams who medal at Europeans and Senior GPF shouldn't need Junior Worlds to get more experience. They just look silly competing against children.
And that's what they're doing it they are using it to gain experience, they are from a small fed without domestic competitions. They need all the competition they can get.
 
And that's what they're doing it they are using it to gain experience, they are from a small fed without domestic competitions. They need all the competition they can get.
And all the wins. Why should they only go against 4 or 5 favorites in seniors from three strong feds, one of them an Olympic fed, when they will have an easier time in juniors? Like...why?
 
I mean, everyone was okay with Miura, Grassl, Golubeva/Moore or Repond going to JGP, Eu/4CC and JWC combos, so why the problem starts with M/B?
We all know the reason why they have such vitriol towards M/B for taking part in Junior World's ;)
 
Figure skating competitions are a risky business. This is the way to minimize this risk, so people are appalled for skaters chosing a canary in a cage over the crane flying in the sky, acting pragmatic. It was done for years, on all levels, and being specifically more against it when the athletes have a higher chance to win is illogical. Excessive games with age limits that try to target one thing but end up impacting something else is what landed us in this situation, disadvanatging a lot of skaters in a variety of ways, which was intended and hailed as a huge win for the sport. But, wow! It also gives advantage to others.

Competing is one way of how they earn their living, so yeah, they have every right to maximize their earnings because it's not like most of them are salaried. Skaters are a 'diva' and hustle field, where most scrape by, and only selected few earn fairly well. They don't have the prospect of the minimal starting salary in mind when they chose to even stay in seniors. Which is when the rest of the people of their age chose their career path.

Plus, raising the stakes in junior competition is great. If others want to win, they simply have to be hungrier and better. For all we know, the Chinese couple would beat M/B, given how unstable M/B are. The junior ice dance this season is choke-full of the worst of seniors from deep pool countries winning over the best of juniors. Pairs and men can and will absolutely do the same. Men did it forever, with 19 yo beating 13 yo anyway.

I mean, enjoy your overall older competitors, longer periods in juniors and longer careers. But, like, keep in mind, that creates more grown ups who have to earn their living somehow while training 6 days a week
so you think it's fair that the georgians take the top prize money, just because they can, in front of others skaters, who truly could benefit from it as they are in their early stages.

Georgians get prize money from GPs, ISU championships etc and GALAs. What do the young skaters from USA, Canada, France and Italy behind them get ?

Also, this is another topic but I suspect the Georgian federation is funding their training in Moscow. Most of the pairs at JWC (except perhaps the Chinese pairs) get very minor funding compared to them.

Where I agree with you : if the ISU keeps changing rules, well they need to do better. You cannot raise the age limits to encourage slower development + longer careers if you don't also protect the real juniors from seniors taking away their money.

It's not just money... as a kid, a medal means a lot. A huge achievement that can fuel even more the passion to train. It could mean better funding within their federation. It could even mean sponsors, even if they are small amounts. All of this is taken away.

The pairs that will finish 2nd at JWC this year will not be able to go to a sponsor and say, you know, we would have won if the Georgians didn't compete... they truly are seniors... Same with the pairs finishing 4th...

It removes important opportunities for further development to all the other teams.

Imagine, super strong nations could indeed fill JWC with age eligible athletes and block all the other kids from having a chance to reach for the top.

At one point, there is a need to counterbalance what these rules have done to the juniors.

Are the Georgians cheating ? No. They are age eligible.

But sometimes, the rules are just not good and with the ISU, sorry to say, but we have history. They change their rules all the time and they just cannot get them right ever... They allow blatantly wrong things to happen. They create loopholes. It has to stop.
 
so you think it's fair that the georgians take the top prize money, just because they can, in front of others skaters, who truly could benefit from it as they are in their early stages.

Georgians get prize money from GPs, ISU championships etc and GALAs. What do the young skaters from USA, Canada, France and Italy behind them get ?

Also, this is another topic but I suspect the Georgian federation is funding their training in Moscow. Most of the pairs at JWC (except perhaps the Chinese pairs) get very minor funding compared to them.

Where I agree with you : if the ISU keeps changing rules, well they need to do better. You cannot raise the age limits to encourage slower development + longer careers if you don't also protect the real juniors from seniors taking away their money.

It's not just money... as a kid, a medal means a lot. A huge achievement that can fuel even more the passion to train. It could mean better funding within their federation. It could even mean sponsors, even if they are small amounts. All of this is taken away.

The pairs that will finish 2nd at JWC this year will not be able to go to a sponsor and say, you know, we would have won if the Georgians didn't compete... they truly are seniors... Same with the pairs finishing 4th...

It removes important opportunities for further development to all the other teams.

Imagine, super strong nations could indeed fill JWC with age eligible athletes and block all the other kids from having a chance to reach for the top.

At one point, there is a need to counterbalance what these rules have done to the juniors.

Are the Georgians cheating ? No. They are age eligible.

But sometimes, the rules are just not good and with the ISU, sorry to say, but we have history. They change their rules all the time and they just cannot get them right ever... They allow blatantly wrong things to happen. They create loopholes. It has to stop.
ISU defines who the junior is. According to them, those are all junior skaters and therefore are eligible. Trying to shame them for going for any prize they can win is wrong. The feds are already blocking younger skaters in the disciplines where older age is advantageous. If they want actual teens getting medals versus young adults, they shouldn't have raised the age limit this far beyond teens. The strong feds already do it. But, like, everyone was up in arms about teenagers going into the seniors too fast, then having pairs that have a large age gap 'left out', now they are up in arms about people using juniors as a layover and milk cow.

ISU can't foresee who their changes will benefit, so they should actually stop fudging the rules so much to benefit someone, like that pair with large age difference. They shouldn't raise the upper limit without adjusting the lower cutoff in the same way. But they did, and now it's suddenly, omg, Georgia might benefit. God forbid! What a disaster...we wanted it to be the 'good' feds.... Because, they didn't even win yet. They just might. If they don't, it would be the Chinese. Should ISU fudge rules again until it's Canadians who win?

The junior division is a disaster right now with 13 yo competing against the 23 yo and trying to call it junior sport for reasons that have nothing to do with reality.

Personally, I care about M/B repeat performance far less than I do about ice dance overpopulated by new adults.
 
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so you think it's fair that the georgians take the top prize money, just because they can, in front of others skaters, who truly could benefit from it as they are in their early stages.
Not everyone is from the lucky sperm club where they can call up their parents to send more money to Irvine, California or Montreal, they want the medals and prizemoney. It goes a lot further in their country.

Georgians get prize money from GPs, ISU championships etc and GALAs. What do the young skaters from USA, Canada, France and Italy behind them get ?
This is out of line. You're talking about them as though they are stealing money from other skaters.

Also, this is another topic but I suspect the Georgian federation is funding their training in Moscow. Most of the pairs at JWC (except perhaps the Chinese pairs) get very minor funding compared to them.
Sure, but on the condition that they don't turn down tournaments that they are eligible. The Georgian fed would be disappointed if here they have the opportunity to win three places but don't try achieve them. They put incredible effort into their gala performances as well. These are skaters who enjoy performing, which is what this sport all about. Not avoiding competition, and then relying on a get of competition card to go into a big tournament like other skaters from comfortable backgrounds might do.

It's not just money... as a kid, a medal means a lot. A huge achievement that can fuel even more the passion to train. It could mean better funding within their federation. It could even mean sponsors, even if they are small amounts. All of this is taken away.
No-one has stolen anything. If they are good enough they will win. If they don't win, then they are not good enough yet. M/B taking part in the competition could lead to better funding, to mean sponsors, all this is otherwise taken away from them.

The pairs that will finish 2nd at JWC this year will not be able to go to a sponsor and say, you know, we would have won if the Georgians didn't compete... they truly are seniors... Same with the pairs finishing 4th...
They will probably ask their parents for more money, most of these juniors are people of extreme privilege. Why should M/B give up the opportunity to be sponsored or gain additional sponsorship.
 
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