Is the triple loop disappearing as the second combo jump? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Is the triple loop disappearing as the second combo jump?

I think that the original idea was that a triple-triple might be harder than doing the same two jumps separately, but this was overridden by the opportunity to squeeze an extra triple jump into your program. Giving a bonus for doing a hard triple-triple AND also total base-value credit for the extra triple, that was kind of double-dipping.

Sort of like getting big base value for a quad AND then also getting automatic positive GOE for a quad of average quality.

In general if base values were given for every possible variation of jump combos based on perceived difficulty,, that would result in a Scale of Values with thousands of entries (instead of the present hundreds, what with <s,e's, etc. Maybe this isn't a problem, though, because all that is handled by the computer.
It doesn't have to be complicated. It could be as simple as giving a bonus of 15% on all combos with a loop jump, even a double loop... That would encourage the 2t+2l three jump combos or even just the +2l combos.

I would also want a bonus for combos with a bigger jump on the end of it. For instance 3t+4t should reward more that the quad triple.

Percentages added... Not a new scale value... Simple.
 
True.

It wouldn't be quite so unwieldy to say, for example, that the second (or third) jump in a true combination should get a base value multiplier of 1.1 or 1.2.

But not for a sequence with a step forward to an axel jump, and possibly not if there is an Euler in between.
Oups. We are saying the same thing more or less
 
Sometimes I think it is very simple. The ISU, the judges, the coaches are all very artistic people. That's why they are all involved in figure skating to begin with.

However, artistic people are sometimes not that good when it comes to numbers. So when it comes down to the nitty gritty on how to score things fairly, they are just not the right people....;)
What non sense. You think musicians are bad with numbers? Or sculpters? Think again.... Especially for the grade three math required in figure skating
 
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I would also want a bonus for combos with a bigger jump on the end of it. For instance 3t+4t should reward more that the quad triple.
Yup. I think we're at the point where there are several guys who would give this a go if there were a built-in base value reward.

I'd also like to see 1A+3S combinations with one-foot axel worth more than 3S+2T or +2Lo. Or 1A+4S similarly.

Or something+3F or +3S, even with a double as the first jump, landing the first jump on the "wrong" foot. Make it more valuable than Euler combinations.
 
What non sense. You think musicians are bad with numbers? Or sculpters? Think again.... Especially for the grade three math required in figure skating
I said sometimes. I am myself a musician and a killer with numbers.

But then again, there are coaches that give for instance Levito the layout last season with a 3Lz+3Lo, and then she does a solo 3T after. They actually lose points on that. So yes, sometimes some people are not great with numbers.

With a GOE of +3:

3Lz+3Lo and then a solo 3T = 18.03 points
3Lz+3T and then a solo 3Lo = 18.24 points
 
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What non sense. You think musicians are bad with numbers? Or sculpters? Think again.... Especially for the grade three math required in figure skating
Oh, I don't know. I think that many visual artists would rebel if their discipline were taken over by an army of computers churning out paint-by-numbers products.

Maybe people involved in and attracted to figure skating tend secretly to despise the assumption that everything of value in the sport can be pigeon-holed into a numerical grid. Is it really all that objective and scientific to declare that a triple loop is 1.15 times as difficult as a triple toe, not 1.16?

(Nothing against Leonardo Da Vinci -- one of the greatest polymaths of all time -- who figured out that the ideal proportions of various parts of the human body must follow the Fibonacci sequence 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,...)
 
With a GOE of +3:

3Lz+3Lo and then a solo 3T = 18.03 points
3Lz+3T and then a solo 3Lo = 18.24 points
But then again, what if the skater can get +3 GOE on her 3Lz+3T but only +2 GOE on her 3Lz+3Lo?

What if she can score 9.0 in choreography with one layout, but only 8.75 with the other?

Sometimes I think that we are imagining a greater degree if accuracy with these numbers than can be justified, especially when the difference between two layouts amounts to only tenths or hundredths of a point. The idea that each coaching/chpreographing team must work with the talents of the individual skater in their charge, and within their own notions of what is an effective program -- well, it's not surprising that this takes precedent. Let a hundred flowers bloom! :)
 
Oh, I don't know. I think that many visual artists would rebel if their discipline were taken over by an army of computers churning out paint-by-numbers products.
where did i mention anything like that ?
Maybe people involved in and attracted to figure skating tend secretly to despise the assumption that everything of value in the sport can be pigeon-holed into a numerical grid. Is it really all that objective and scientific to declare that a triple loop is 1.15 times as difficult as a triple toe, not 1.16?
their problem ;) if figure skating is a sport and requires scoring, then numbers have to be assigned to elements... and that's always been arbitrary... as you have mentioned in another thread, it seems like some skaters have an easier time with the quad lutz than the quad loop.. yet, the quad lutz gets more point... Duhamel said the throw triple flip was MUCH easier than the throw triple lutz, yet, they are the same value... i think she's also the one who mentioned how difficult the throw triple toe can be though it's lower in bv... (maybe it was someone else).. in the end, numbers have been assigned to create some canvas for scoring that is less subjective perhaps.. and that's how it goes.
(Nothing against Leonardo Da Vinci -- one of the greatest polymaths of all time -- who figured out that the ideal proportions of various parts of the human body must follow the Fibonacci sequence 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,...)
the human body part /visual arts do not follow the sequence... they follow the ratio between number of the sequence... which is close to the golden number....

Was it Leo who worked with that first ? All I can tell you is that it's present in many disciplines in a number of ways. Even chords are based on thirds, follow the golden number/fibonacci sequence ratios... and chords are old :)

Also, the sequence create spirals...which are commonly seen in nature (much older than any artists or mathmen ) for instead, conic seashell, romanesco cauliflower, artichokes, etc.

Modern/Contemporary musicians have been fascinated by the golden number, for instance Bartok... or even Stockhausen. It has been present in art for centuries and will remain relevant for ever...

The golden ration is 1.618

In classical sonatas for instance, the development and recapitulation is often said to be of that ration over the exposition.

Another way to look at it in art is the following

Let's take 15, 23


15/23 = 65,3 %

So roughly at the two-third point of a piece, we would reach the golden number and thus, there may be a huge climax there.

So musicians analyse works the other way around from and say that at the end of the development of a sonata, at roughly two-thirds, the climax should be... and that's where there is the most harmonic tension in a sonata.

So there are different ways to use :

1) proportions of sections (or I guess facial features etc)
2) or when it happens in time

In a short program, the golden number often is right after the last jumping pass... which happens after the half way point, for bonus points which starts at 80 seconds...

2m40 secs = 160 seconds X golden ration (0.653) 104 seconds or so... Often, that's where the music picks up for or during the step sequence...


So some choreographers may or may not know this but they are using Fibonacci ratio as well ;)

It is so ingrained in our culture, probably because it's coming from nature, that a lot of our aesthetic concepts come from it
 
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I said sometimes. I am myself a musician and a killer with numbers.

But then again, there are coaches that give for instance Levito the layout last season with a 3Lz+3Lo, and then she does a solo 3T after. They actually lose points on that. So yes, sometimes some people are not great with numbers.

With a GOE of +3:

3Lz+3Lo and then a solo 3T = 18.03 points
3Lz+3T and then a solo 3Lo = 18.24 points
Base Value is not always the end of it all in figure skating..

I don't follow Isabeau but the point of doing a loop combo in the SP would be to include the other hard jump as the solo jump, the flip or the lutz... definitely not to put a 3t ... Of course, in the LP, as we have already mentioned, there is no incentive... BUT... there could be some rewards beyond the Base value... some judges may be inclined to boost their Skating Skills marks based on such exotic combos.. like the quad bonus for men ;) So in the end, if every judge boosted their PCS because of such a combo, the risk may be worth it as it could become a signature technical element ...and be rewarded in various subjective ways
 
In classical sonatas for instance, the development and recapitulation is often said to be of that ration over the exposition.

Another way to look at it in art is the following
the last jumping pass... which happens after the half way point, for bonus points which starts at 80 seconds...

2m40 secs = 160 seconds X golden ration (0.653) 104 seconds or so... Often, that's where the music picks up for or during the step sequence...
Very interesting, In your experience, do composers and choreographers consciously aim for these ratios, or does it just "sound right/feel right " to put climaxes there?
 
Lindsay Thorngren was doing triple lutz / triple loop combo in the past. And, I wonder why she didn't do it now cause her triple lutz / triple toe is always Hammer of Ur by the technical panel. Maybe comeback to triple lutz / triple loop for Lindsay would be a good idea for the future.
 
Base Value is not always the end of it all in figure skating..

I don't follow Isabeau but the point of doing a loop combo in the SP would be to include the other hard jump as the solo jump, the flip or the lutz... definitely not to put a 3t ... Of course, in the LP, as we have already mentioned, there is no incentive... BUT... there could be some rewards beyond the Base value... some judges may be inclined to boost their Skating Skills marks based on such exotic combos.. like the quad bonus for men ;) So in the end, if every judge boosted their PCS because of such a combo, the risk may be worth it as it could become a signature technical element ...and be rewarded in various subjective ways
I find that unlikely.

Isabeau had it in her free program last season (or was it two seasons ago?) Yuna Aoki of Japan had the same layout in her free this season. At Skate America she landed it cleanly and got GOE +2. But at NHK she had a q and negative GOE.

It's like driving your car in the pouring rain without the windshield wipers on. It's a risk that doesn't make sense, and it doesn't pay off.

It was different for Zagitova and Shcherbakova who needed the +3Lo combo so that they could save the +3T for another combo.
 
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Lindsay Thorngren was doing triple lutz / triple loop combo in the past. And, I wonder why she didn't do it now cause her triple lutz / triple toe is always Hammer of Ur by the technical panel. Maybe comeback to triple lutz / triple loop for Lindsay would be a good idea for the future.
I love Lindsay and I hope she can fix her problems next season. Unfortunately now, I don't think it's the 3T combo that is the problem. At Nationals she underrotated almost every jump. Maybe she has growing issues and her timing is off?
 
Well, the last two ladies who won the Olympics had this loop combo and won because of it.
Alina Zagitova went for 3Lz 3Lo in both the SP and FP. If she didn’t, Evgenia would have won.
Anna Scherbackova’s 3Lz 3Lo also got her gold. If she didn’t go for this combo, and went for 3Lz 2T, she wouldn’t have been the gold medalist at the Olympics. Anna’s loop combo allowed her to stay close enough on TES with Alexandra despite only two quads of the same type.

I think the -3Lo combo is vital nowadays, but, only if you have an ultra c jump you can really take advantage.

I just finished watching the Russian Junior Nationals and gold medal could have been won had the silver medalist executed a -3Lo combo.

The silver medalist went for
4Lz, 4T 2T, 4T, 3Lo, 3Lz 3T, 3Lz 2A 2A, 3F.

The gold would have been hers, if she went for
4Lz, 4T 2A 2A, 4T, 3S, 3Lz 3Lo, 3Lz 3T, 3F

So, at the highest level, it can make a difference.
 
I find that unlikely.

Isabeau had it in her free program last season (or was it two seasons ago?) Yuna Aoki of Japan had the same layout in her free this season. At Skate America she landed it cleanly and got GOE +2. But at NHK she had a q and negative GOE.

It's like driving your car in the pouring rain without the windshield wipers on. It's a risk that doesn't make sense, and it doesn't pay off.

It was different for Zagitova and Shcherbakova who needed the +3Lo combo so that they could save the +3T for another combo.
it was especially different when the axel sequence wasn't worth 100% of base value.

If I recall correctly, Zag and Scherb would jump two 2axels solo... not in combo... so then they could use a layout like this one. but with the axel now being full value in the sequence, nobody needs. it

3lz-3loop
3lz-2t-2loop
2a
2a
3s
3f-toe
3f


We are talking about many different things here though.
Rule changes, not just the axel but the +5 GOE, the Q, the way tech panels are now more strict etc.
Healthy skaters : loop combos are hard on the body. Age change (another rule change) aims for longer career... so I guess it's not worth the risk

Of course, Base Value in the LP is not worth it. but it does remain a bit advantageous to use in the SP, IF a skater is really able to most likely get positive GOE on it... or even better, if backloaded with positive GOE. What we saw at Euros with the few top skaters after the LP is similar scores for similar clean programs... What if one of them were able to use that special trick and earn a couple points more than the others... Skating late in the final flight does have its scoring advantages, usually...

So it again is more than just number. It can be strategic.

Also, for men, when we take Jun doing 3lz-3loop versus 4s-2t... I mean, the Base value for the quad double is not really much more than the base value for the fancy 3-3... So it depends then what is better for the skater, especially in this case that Jun can backload that combo and wouldn't backload his quad combo.

In any case, are they disappearing ? I don't think so. The rule changes and age limits may, combined with the tech panels being harsher and harsher may discourage skaters from doing those a bit... but at some point, everyone is looking to get an advantage and tagging loops could be very advantageous especially for a skater who may have an edge call on either the lutz/flip jump and do not want to risk repeating that jump.
 
3Loop used to be worth 1 point more than a 3Toe, and that was already not enough of a differential when comparing the difficulty of doing that jump as the second part of a combination. Now it's only worth .7 more, and on top of that we have the current problem of difficult jump combos being disincentivized in most long programs because of the +2Axel sequence being given so much credit.

One of the most pleasing (Triple)+3Loop combos ever is still the first one ever, Eric Millot's 3Loop+3Loop at 1996 Worlds. There's an incredible amount of snap into the second jump, with a completion of the rotation in the air, that has pretty much never been seen since then. Sadly the CoP still has not been properly updated to reward explosiveness off the ice and showing suspension in the air.

Anna Scherbackova’s 3Lz 3Lo also got her gold. If she didn’t go for this combo, and went for 3Lz 2T, she wouldn’t have been the gold medalist at the Olympics. Anna’s loop combo allowed her to stay close enough on TES with Alexandra despite only two quads of the same type.

Wrong. If Anna was a skater without a +3Loop combo, then she would have replaced one of her 2Axel's with a 3Loop. Having the +3Loop combo was worth less than 2 points in her program and she won the competition by 4 points.
 
Wrong. If Anna was a skater without a +3Loop combo, then she would have replaced one of her 2Axel's with a 3Loop. Having the +3Loop combo was worth less than 2 points in her program and she won the competition by 4 points.
Or, instead of 3Lz+3Lo she could have done 3Lz+3T and then ended with a solo 3Lo. Which means she changed one 3Lz to a 3T. About 2 points less.
 
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