Is the triple loop disappearing as the second combo jump?

[4everchan]

still noteworthy that all these 4 olympic champs had a + 3loop combo

lipinski
hughes
zagitova
scherbakova

 

[RatedPG]

3Loop used to be worth 1 point more than a 3Toe, and that was already not enough of a differential when comparing the difficulty of doing that jump as the second part of a combination. Now it's only worth .7 more, and on top of that we have the current problem of difficult jump combos being disincentivized in most long programs because of the +2Axel sequence being given so much credit.

One of the most pleasing (Triple)+3Loop combos ever is still the first one ever, Eric Millot's 3Loop+3Loop at 1996 Worlds. There's an incredible amount of snap into the second jump, with a completion of the rotation in the air, that has pretty much never been seen since then. Sadly the CoP still has not been properly updated to reward explosiveness off the ice and showing suspension in the air.



Wrong. If Anna was a skater without a +3Loop combo, then she would have replaced one of her 2Axel's with a 3Loop. Having the +3Loop combo was worth less than 2 points in her program and she won the competition by 4 points.

Hmmm
Interesting. In my mind she always won the gold with this combo.
Good to know I was wrong. I forgot about her replacing the 2A with the 3Lo in the first half. But, going for both the 3Lz and 3Lo in one jumping element in the second half, allowed those two jumps to get bonus 1.10.

Now, this makes me mad
The 3Lo should be worth more than 0.7 more than 3T. To me, it is more difficult.
Also, when done in combo, there should be a bonus of 1-2 points more to reward the difficulty. I want to see more of this combo.

Also, I want to see less 2A seq.

They really need to think more about what they are doing.

Has anybody done the calculations to determine if loop combos are advantageous in the future six jumping pass implementation. I’m hoping that reducing one pass will force harder combos, as they have less jumping elements to implement their triples, in singles ladies

 

[4everchan]

Has anybody done the calculations to determine if loop combos are advantageous in the future six jumping pass implementation. I’m hoping that reducing one pass will force harder combos, as they have less jumping elements to implement their triples, in singles ladies

3lz
3f
3s
3lz-3loop
3f-3toe-2Loop
2a-2a

would be the highest BV if i am not mistaken and if they are still allowed 3 combos

3lz
3f
3s
3lz-3toe
3f-2toe-2loop
3loop-2a

So the difference would be marginal again... one more 2a in the +loop combo the non +loop combo would replace the 2a with a 2t but GOE wise, with the loop combo, you automatically have to have a pass starting with a 2a, which will lower the GOE factoring for that pass...

 

[RatedPG]

3lz
3f
3s
3lz-3loop
3f-3toe-2Loop
2a-2a

would be the highest BV if i am not mistaken and if they are still allowed 3 combos

3lz
3f
3s
3lz-3toe
3f-2toe-2loop
3loop-2a

So the difference would be marginal again... one more 2a in the +loop combo the non +loop combo would replace the 2a with a 2t but GOE wise, with the loop combo, you automatically have to have a pass starting with a 2a, which will lower the GOE factoring for that pass...

Sigh… so, this new system won’t encourage loop combos.

What if the competitor has a 3A (Amber, Hana, Rinka) or attempting one 4T (Rion)
Would it be advantageous then?

 

[4everchan]

Sigh… so, this new system won’t encourage loop combos.

What if the competitor has a 3A (Amber, Hana, Rinka) or attempting one 4T (Rion)
Would it be advantageous then?

of course, just like it is advantageous for men if they want to use it.

3a
3lz-3loop
3f-toe
3lz
3f
3s-2a-2a

 

[RatedPG]

of course, just like it is advantageous for men if they want to use it.

3a
3lz-3loop
3f-toe
3lz
3f
3s-2a-2a

Ok. So, maybe this will force the women to learn ultra-c elements and the loop combo moving forward

 

[Jontor]

As I understand it, the new rules are implemented after 2026 Olympics.

One jumping combo removed - so there will only be two combinations. (6 jumping passes, 9 jumps)
One spin replaced with a choreographed one
A jump can be done 3 times, so changing the Zayak rule there
Higher BV for non-jumping elements

I wouldn't be surprised if the ISU change their minds about all this and come up with some other changes instead.

 

[4everchan]

As I understand it, the new rules are implemented after 2026 Olympics.

One jumping combo removed - so there will only be two combinations. (6 jumping passes, 9 jumps)

ok so we can look at two combos... so even better for the loop combo perhaps

One spin replaced with a choreographed one
A jump can be done 3 times, so changing the Zayak rule there

as far as i understood is that for instance, if someone does a quad toe, then a triple toe, they can do another type of toe jump... but no more...

i guess it's to avoid those who do 2 quad lutzes and 2 triple lutzes so it's not really a zayak rule...

Higher BV for non-jumping elements

I wouldn't be surprised if the ISU change their minds about all this and come up with some other changes instead.

 

[Jontor]

ok so we can look at two combos... so even better for the loop combo perhaps

as far as i understood is that for instance, if someone does a quad toe, then a triple toe, they can do another type of toe jump... but no more...

i guess it's to avoid those who do 2 quad lutzes and 2 triple lutzes so it's not really a zayak rule...

OK. Yes I might have misunderstood the thing about the Zayak rule. This was what I read on another site a while back, and who knows if it's even legit.

 

[saine]

I wouldn't be surprised if the ISU change their minds about all this and come up with some other changes instead.

I doubt it. From the constitution, Article 11 2a):

Changes in the Technical Rules as proposed by the respective Technical Committee(s) and approved by the respective Sports Technical Directors, the respective Vice President and the Council and changes proposed by the Council are accepted unless an ISU Member during the Congress puts forward an objection and this objection obtains a simple majority of votes. Such objection may only be not to accept the proposed change in the Technical Rule(s) and it cannot propose any amendment. A Rule in the Technical Rules may not change or amend a Rule included in the Constitution or in the General Regulations or in the Special Regulations.

They would need another congress to not go forward with the changes in the 2026-27 season. It would only be able to come from the Technical Committee, ISU members couldn't propose keeping the old rules if they did have a congress to discuss the changes. They are having one this year, but it is specifically for constitution reform. I can imagine Benoit Lavoie's reaction if the Technical Committee went up to him and wanted to keep the current rules before the new ones were implemented after the drama in getting the changes passed.

 

[Blades of Passion]

3lz
3f
3s
3lz-3loop
3f-3toe-2Loop
2a-2a

would be the highest BV if i am not mistaken and if they are still allowed 3 combos

This would be the highest:

3Lutz
3Flip
3Sal
3Lutz+3Toe
3Flip+2Axel+2Axel
2Lutz+3Loop

There's no benefit to doing a (Triple)+Triple Loop combo and it's only a .44 base value increase by doing the 2Lutz+3Loop instead of a 3Loop+2Loop.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ISU change their minds about all this and come up with some other changes instead.

Hopefully they do, it would be horrible to limit everyone to such a low amount of jumps. People were doing 7+ jump passes when skating was at its artistic height, that is not the problem with the sport.

I would love to see skaters have the OPTION of doing less jumps, and instead do more spins or footwork/spiral sequences, but it shouldn't be a forced thing of limiting jumps for everyone, and we desperately need to change the rules for footwork sequences and spins. Clunky, mechanical footwork sequences and spins are the biggest reason why programs are less interesting and beautiful than they used to be.

 

[4everchan]

This would be the highest:

3Lutz
3Flip
3Sal
3Lutz+3Toe
3Flip+2Axel+2Axel
2Lutz+3Loop

There's no benefit to doing a (Triple)+Triple Loop combo and it's only a .44 base value increase by doing the 2Lutz+3Loop instead of a 3Loop+2Loop.

In any case, apparently, there will only be two combos allowed so in that case,
3lutz
3flip
3sal
3lutz-3toe
3flip-2a-2a
3loop

I guess we will see a lot of the same programs content with one less jumping pass and one less combo. the +2a+2a will be very much used.

 

[TontoK]

In any case, apparently, there will only be two combos allowed so in that case,
3lutz
3flip
3sal
3lutz-3toe
3flip-2a-2a
3loop

I guess we will see a lot of the same programs content with one less jumping pass and one less combo. the +2a+2a will be very much used.

That is a logical jump setup with the proposed rules. Although I suppose you might see someone go for a 3-3-2A combo/sequence if they really want to maximize the points, but I haven't really sorted out the rest of the jumping passes if one goes that route.

Actually, I might like to see that. So many 3-3 don't have a lot of flow coming out, so if a skater wanted to go into 2A, they would have to address that. Which would be good.

 

[4everchan]

That is a logical jump setup with the proposed rules. Although I suppose you might see someone go for a 3-3-2A combo/sequence if they really want to maximize the points, but I haven't really sorted out the rest of the jumping passes if one goes that route.

Actually, I might like to see that. So many 3-3 don't have a lot of flow coming out, so if a skater wanted to go into 2A, they would have to address that. Which would be good.

Well, if someone does 3-3+2a they will miss out on a double axel, UNLESS they can do a + 3loop combo There would be absolutely no advantage trying this layout which makes both combos harder... Remember, only one axel sequence is available. Only one 3 jump combo is available... Only 2 combos.

3lutz
3flip
3sal
3lutz-3toe- 2a
3flip-3loop
2a

 

[TontoK]

As I understand it, the new rules are implemented after 2026 Olympics.

One jumping combo removed - so there will only be two combinations. (6 jumping passes, 9 jumps)
One spin replaced with a choreographed one
A jump can be done 3 times, so changing the Zayak rule there
Higher BV for non-jumping elements

I wouldn't be surprised if the ISU change their minds about all this and come up with some other changes instead.

As explained in other posts, I think the Zayak thing was misunderstood, but that's OK.

I'm on record for not reducing the jumping passes, but I can compromise in this way.

Reduce the number of passes with this caveat: There should be allowed, not required, that the choreographic sequence permit one choreographic jump of 2 rotations or less with a flat BV or simply included in the base value of the sequence. This is my sneaky way of reintroducing the huge, delayed, single axels. This is a recurring theme around here over the years, but it would also allow some really nice double jumps that used to be featured in the SP... those with innovative arms positions or jump entries - for example see Kristi Yamaguchi's beautiful double flip in her Albertville SP to Blue Danube. Who wouldn't like to see something like that included every now and then?

Keep the spins, but still add the choreographic spin, and add 15 seconds to the length of the program, provided the jumping passes are NOT reduced. If a jumping pass is eliminated, then keep the length the same.

I'm all in favor of higher BV for non-jump elements.

 

[skatesofgold]

Hmmm
Interesting. In my mind she always won the gold with this combo.
Good to know I was wrong. I forgot about her replacing the 2A with the 3Lo in the first half. But, going for both the 3Lz and 3Lo in one jumping element in the second half, allowed those two jumps to get bonus 1.10.

Now, this makes me mad
The 3Lo should be worth more than 0.7 more than 3T. To me, it is more difficult.
Also, when done in combo, there should be a bonus of 1-2 points more to reward the difficulty. I want to see more of this combo.

Also, I want to see less 2A seq.

They really need to think more about what they are doing.

Has anybody done the calculations to determine if loop combos are advantageous in the future six jumping pass implementation. I’m hoping that reducing one pass will force harder combos, as they have less jumping elements to implement their triples, in singles ladies

Yeah, I'm tired of 2As in general. I don't know how they could change the scoring system, but there's no reason so many free programs should have two of them, even during the last quad. I suppose it's the Zayak rule, but rules sometimes have undesirable side effects.

 

[4everchan]

Yeah, I'm tired of 2As in general. I don't know how they could change the scoring system, but there's no reason so many free programs should have two of them, even during the last quad. I suppose it's the Zayak rule, but rules sometimes have undesirable side effects.

Well, at least, they limited the number of 2a to 2. It used to be possible to do 3. (Yuna Kim, Mirai Nagasu, Kira Korpi , etc in 2010 Olympics)

 

[Mathman]

Yeah, I'm tired of 2As in general. I don't know how they could change the scoring system, but there's no reason so many free programs should have two of them, even during the last quad. I suppose it's the Zayak rule, but rules sometimes have undesirable side effects.

Rules do indeed have undesirable, or at least unintended, side effects. I suppose that's why the ISU changes them every two years: "no, no. no, that's not what we were going for at all!"

For this particular problem, though, I think that just counting a double Axel in with the triples for Zayak purposes would do the trick. This would discourage the +2A+2A sequences, while still allowing a more adventurous 2A+3T or 2A+3Lo.

Something like

3Lz+2T+2Lo
3F
3Lo
2A+3T*
3Lz*
3S*

would be a well-balanced six-jumping-pass program for a skater lacking a true triple-triple, 3A or quad. It would score pretty well without being overly demanding and without risking too much in the way of negative GOE (provided she didn’t get edge calls on her Lutzes and flip). It would display a nice range of jumping skills while leaving plenty of time for choreography, spins and footwork.

Might not win an Olympic gold medal, but you need a triple Axel for that.

 

[4everchan]

Rules do indeed have undesirable, or at least unintended, side effects. I suppose that's why the ISU changes them every two years: "no, no. no, that's not what we were going for at all!"

For this particular problem, though, I think that just counting a double Axel in with the triples for Zayak purposes would do the trick. This would discourage the +2A+2A sequences, while still allowing a more adventurous 2A+3T or 2A+3Lo.

Something like

3Lz+2T+2Lo
3F
3Lo
2A+3T*
3Lz*
3S*

would be a well-balanced six-jumping-pass program for a skater lacking a true triple-triple, 3A or quad. It would score pretty well without being overly demanding and without risking too much in the way of negative GOE (provided she didn’t get edge calls on her Lutzes and flip). It would display a nice range of jumping skills while leaving plenty of time for choreography, spins and footwork.

Might not win an Olympic gold medal, but you need a triple Axel for that.

this kind of layout is already used (add a solo 2a for 7 passes) and you got it right, it won't win the big titles.

Maddie Schizas used to repeat 3t and 3loop and her bv (and consistency issues) have kept her out of top ten and she did have a good 3z-3t.

She's added a second triple lutz now. Sara-Maude also is adding a second triple lutz. So that's the thing... it's not necessarily about the combos but about what jumps you can repeat.

 

[Mathman]

This kind of layout is already used (add a solo 2a for 7 passes) and you got it right, it won't win the big titles.

Point-wise, it seems like working.in a triple Axel ought to cure all other layout deficits. But then I was startled to realize that no lady has ever won an Olympic gold medal with a program that had a 3A -- not even Midori Ito.