Financial compensation expected in club transfer?

[jan.zilka]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to discuss the practice of young figure skaters (children and youth amateurs) transferring between clubs in one country, specifically regarding whether the original club expects or demands financial compensation for the training provided from the receiving club. As if the skater was bought by the new club.

The argument for this compensation is that the club invested resources in the skater's development. However, there's a view that during the skater's membership, the family's contributions (fees, participation) and the skater's presence, which helps the club obtain public funding, already compensate the club, and no actual debt is incurred by the child or parents upon leaving.

Could you please share what the practice is in your country or under your national skating federation's rules concerning amateur youth transfers between clubs?

Is there a mandatory training compensation or transfer fee that the family, the skater, or the new club must pay to the former club?
Is this a common practice?
Does it apply to all amateur youth transfers, or only under specific circumstances (e.g., reaching a certain competitive level)?
Any information on how transfers work financially for young amateur skaters in your country would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you for your insights!

 

[jan.zilka]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to discuss the practice of young figure skaters (children and youth amateurs) transferring between clubs in one country, specifically regarding whether the original club expects or demands financial compensation for the training provided from the receiving club. As if the skater was bought by the new club.

The argument for this compensation is that the club invested resources in the skater's development. However, there's a view that during the skater's membership, the family's contributions (fees, participation) and the skater's presence, which helps the club obtain public funding, already compensate the club, and no actual debt is incurred by the child or parents upon leaving.

Could you please share what the practice is in your country or under your national skating federation's rules concerning amateur youth transfers between clubs?

Is there a mandatory training compensation or transfer fee that the family, the skater, or the new club must pay to the former club?
Is this a common practice?
Does it apply to all amateur youth transfers, or only under specific circumstances (e.g., reaching a certain competitive level)?
Any information on how transfers work financially for young amateur skaters in your country would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you for your insights!

No response 2weeks. Feeling sad... Cone on, guys, how this works in your country? Im afraid that we are the only country in Europe who punishes parents for their decision to change a club. Any information is appreciated.

I already know that there are countries that help much more and other countries, where the financial share on funding amateur sport is , say, weaker.

I can not figure out why this practice, to require payment of certain amount of money, as if the kid was sold, still persists in my country.

If you do not see that happening in your country, please, let me know.

Please, comment. Thanks.

 

[FSFan1999]

Changing club representation or simply moving? Either way I've never heard of this "compensation". But to answer your question, read the terms and conditions you accepted when joining the club (and from your federation). Unless you signed a doccument indicating payment, I would think you can just ignore it?

 

[FethryDuck]

... just skating for fun and adult ... so I am lacking the knowledge :-(
What does the "contract" say which you have with your child's club? Surely you must have signed some paperwork when you registered your child there ...?

 

[Diana Delafield]

No response 2weeks. Feeling sad... Cone on, guys, how this works in your country? Im afraid that we are the only country in Europe who punishes parents for their decision to change a club. Any information is appreciated.

I already know that there are countries that help much more and other countries, where the financial share on funding amateur sport is , say, weaker.

I can not figure out why this practice, to require payment of certain amount of money, as if the kid was sold, still persists in my country.

If you do not see that happening in your country, please, let me know.

Please, comment. Thanks.

Probably there was no comment because no one had ever heard of this happening in any other countries? In Canada, either you use your original club name just out of loyalty or habit on your entry form even if you move across the country to skate elsewhere, or you use your new club's name. It's not an important point what club name is on a competition event program. If you're at all well known, everybody knows where you really train. When I was competing in pairs a couple of generations ago, our first coach taught at clubs in two cities. She listed all her pupils as being from one of those clubs just out of convenience when she was filing entry papers, but we really trained at the other location. I think we actually skated at the club we supposedly represented maybe twice in our five years with her, as guest performers in club shows. Even when we moved on to another coach in yet other cities across the country, event programs still gave the name of that original club where we never really did skate. Nobody cared, nobody questioned that. Same among my skating friends in a few other countries -- the UK, the USA, Italy.

I've never heard of that situation you described, but it sounds like a form of petty localized corruption. Does anyone at the ISU know that is happening? (And I apologize for not knowing what country you mean. Looking at flag logos, I'm assuming Czechia? If it's not happening even in the original other half of Czechoslovakia, then it sounds like a private scam cooked up by a few local clubs. As other responses say, if you signed some kind of contract, check it out. If you know a lawyer personally who'll look at the contract for free, ask. And then ignore a demand for a "transfer fee".)

 

[Query]

It does sound a bit like slavery.

The closest I've heard about in the United States:

USFS[A], now sometimes called USFigureSkating, at least used to have a policy that you could not transfer clubs unless you were a member "in good standing" with the prior club. I'm not sure exactly what that means, but some local clubs talk about "good standing" in connection with paying dues on time (and, for adult members, passing SafeSport training, but that isn't relevant to this question).

The U.S. has another figure skating organization, called ISI (which, BTW, also has branches outside the U.S.A.). A lot of people belong to multiple ISI clubs, and I don't think there are any rules like that.

I have also heard of coaches who made a contract with elite level students who can't pay full fair for lessons, that gives them a portion of the student's future earnings as figure skaters. That's different, but is a little bit similar. I'm not sure if those contracts are enforceable in the U.S., when made by minors, or by parents for their children...

But I think actor's and musician's agents sometimes have similar contracts.

Perhaps someone with legal training in contract law of the relevant country or countries could determine whether a contract like you mention can be legally enforced in the country or countries involved?

I wonder if an ISU member skating organization in one country can refuse to provide information on a skater's achievements (e.g., test and competition results) to an ISU member skating organization in another country... That might make transferring countries difficult.

I also wonder whether the ISU has any rules relating to this sort of thing. Perhaps it is so unusual, that no rules have yet been made?

 

[NanaPat]

I wonder if an ISU member skating organization in one country can refuse to provide information on a skater's achievements (e.g., test and competition results) to an ISU member skating organization in another country... That might make transferring countries difficult.

If I recall correctly, when Mervin Tran transferred to representing the US, he had to take all his tests over again, which he did in quick succession (a single day?) It wasn't because the Japanese or Canadian federations withheld information, but because the US doesn't accept anyone else's test results. And this was despite Mervin having already won a World medal while representing Japan! It wasn't a big deal for him.

 

[el henry]

As everyone else has already stated, @jan.zilka, it could help if you specified the clubs and the countries that you are thinking about.

In the US, skating is self financed. Coaches, skates, costumes, ice time, all funded by the skater. Families pay to join the one of the various skating clubs, with benefits like more sessions, cheaper ice time, coaching availability (but not payment of coaches).

Also, in the US, a skater must belong to a USFS club or join the USFS as an individual member to compete at USFS events. At Nats, a skater is introduced as "Representing the XYZ figure skating club in SmallTown, AnyState, please welcome Suzy Skater". I actually enjoy those intros.

As far as I can tell, elite skaters very rarely switch from their childhood clubs. Jason Brown hasn't trained in Chicago in over ten years, but he is still competes at USFS events as a member of the Skokie Valley Skating club. Madison Chock still represents the All Year Figure Skating club in Southern California where she started, even though she hasn't trained there in over 15 years.

There is just no reason for a US skater to switch clubs, and certainly no reason for compensation.

 

[ice coverage]

... As far as I can tell, elite skaters very rarely switch from their childhood clubs. Jason Brown hasn't trained in Chicago in over ten years, but he is still competes at USFS events as a member of the Skokie Valley Skating club. Madison Chock still represents the All Year Figure Skating club in Southern California where she started, even though she hasn't trained there in over 15 years.

There is just no reason for a US skater to switch clubs ...

Not an answer to OP's questions in any way, but as more of an aside: It is easy to come up with examples of U.S. elite skaters who did make a switch from their childhood club to a different club. It's something of a grey area, IMO.
I am no expert on this topic, but my understanding is that at least in some cases, one of the potential benefits of a switch could be financial/training support (to whatever extent) from a new club that has the wherewithal?

Just a sampling:
Danny O'Shea and Bradie Tennell used to belong to Skokie Valley Skating Club. Both now represent Skating Club of New York.
Of the many elite SCNY members, quite a few are not originally from the NYC area and never have had a training base in the NYC area. Danny is an example, AFAIK.
Some skaters switch to Broadmoor Skating Club after they start training in Colorado Springs; some switch to Skating Club of Boston after they start training there.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

As everyone else has already stated, @jan.zilka, it could help if you specified the clubs and the countries that you are thinking about.

In the US, skating is self financed. Coaches, skates, costumes, ice time, all funded by the skater. Families pay to join the one of the various skating clubs, with benefits like more sessions, cheaper ice time, coaching availability (but not payment of coaches).

Also, in the US, a skater must belong to a USFS club or join the USFS as an individual member to compete at USFS events. At Nats, a skater is introduced as "Representing the XYZ figure skating club in SmallTown, AnyState, please welcome Suzy Skater". I actually enjoy those intros.

As far as I can tell, elite skaters very rarely switch from their childhood clubs. Jason Brown hasn't trained in Chicago in over ten years, but he is still competes at USFS events as a member of the Skokie Valley Skating club. Madison Chock still represents the All Year Figure Skating club in Southern California where she started, even though she hasn't trained there in over 15 years.

There is just no reason for a US skater to switch clubs, and certainly no reason for compensation.

All of this. I will say that someone like Bradie Tennell changed clubs she represents b/c she now lives and trains just outside of NY in W. Orange, NJ. Things like this do happen if you feel like you are more in tune with your new club and it has been forever since you trained at your original club.

Other times, there are kids coming up through the ranks that will switch clubs for other reasons, mostly negative reasons with their old club.

 

[lilimum]

In Germany parents )or other private sponsors) have to pay everything. If you are in a regional or national team you get support from the Bundesland like Bavaria or Berlin or Goverment - at the end the so called elite skaters are paid by taxes. If a skater changes the training location the local club wants very often that the skater is getting their membership because in Germany clubs are getting supporting money per member.
The practice that you describe is common for youth soccer. In that case small clubs will get compensation money from the big clubs. E.g. if Bayern München gets a young player that was trained for several years in a small minor league club, Bayern München has to pay a certain sum that is defined by the Germany Football association. This is to support the small clubs where a lot of coaches working as volunteer.

 

[Diana Delafield]

In Germany parents )or other private sponsors) have to pay everything. If you are in a regional or national team you get support from the Bundesland like Bavaria or Berlin or Goverment - at the end the so called elite skaters are paid by taxes. If a skater changes the training location the local club wants very often that the skater is getting their membership because in Germany clubs are getting supporting money per member.
The practice that you describe is common for youth soccer. In that case small clubs will get compensation money from the big clubs. E.g. if Bayern München gets a young player that was trained for several years in a small minor league club, Bayern München has to pay a certain sum that is defined by the Germany Football association. This is to support the small clubs where a lot of coaches working as volunteer.

I hadn't thought of that as a possible reason. My own reply was describing the situation of changing clubs in Canada. There are always going to be complaints about one's favourite sport not receiving enough financial support, but it has to be admitted that in Canada, figure skating is relatively affluent. Perhaps the Czech republic (if that's the country the OP refers to) lost a lot when the country was divided, and that transfer fee may be a partial solution someone came up with there.

 

[Query]

As to switching clubs, many of us at a non-elite level have belonged to clubs partly for the purpose of being able to skate during club sessions, or to participate in an activity that happened at that rink during its club sessions (e.g., shows, unique lessons or lessons with a particular coach, production teams, synchro teams, unusual competitions...). So we sometimes switch clubs, or join more than one (though, with USFSA/USFS/USFigureSkating, you could only have one "home" club that is affiliated with that organization). Continuing to belong to the same club, after you no longer use those sessions or participate in its activities or take lessons from its coaches, is an unnecessary expense. I've also known people who switched because of internal club politics. And some clubs die when their affiliated ice rink closes.

AFAIK, this does not apply to figure skating, but there are professional team sports in the U.S., such as hockey, where the team sort of "owns" its players, and can sometimes trade them in exchange for various benefits (I think usually non-monetary, perhaps to avoid taxes??) and/or for other players.

Some U.S. figure skating clubs subsidize some of their elite skaters. Would it be shocking or against any rules if those skaters signed contracts agreeing not to switch home clubs without permission or partial return of subsidies? I don't know of that practice, but it doesn't seem unreasonable. Likewise, I'm sure there are a number of cases in which the family of one skater in an Ice Dance or Pairs team pays for the relocation, expenses and perhaps a stipend of the other skater - a similar contract would seem appropriate.

 

[el henry]

Thank you @lilimum for explaining the situation in Germany.

That does not exist in the US. No club that I know of receives any government funding based on number of skaters, skaters results, etc. The decision to join or switch clubs, other than loss of club dues which are paid by the skater, incur no financial penalty.

This also doesn't happen for the more popular sports. Football players sign contracts with a team, but they owe nothing to the team other than performance in accordance with the contract. They are free to change teams whenever the contract expires. Their movements may be restricted while under contract, but that is between the player and the team, and not a demand between teams.

 

[lilimum]

Thank you @lilimum for explaining the situation in Germany.

That does not exist in the US. No club that I know of receives any government funding based on number of skaters, skaters results, etc. The decision to join or switch clubs, other than loss of club dues which are paid by the skater, incur no financial penalty.

This also doesn't happen for the more popular sports. Football players sign contracts with a team, but they owe nothing to the team other than performance in accordance with the contract. They are free to change teams whenever the contract expires. Their movements may be restricted while under contract, but that is between the player and the team, and not a demand between teams.

 

[jan.zilka]

Probably there was no comment because no one had ever heard of this happening in any other countries? In Canada, either you use your original club name just out of loyalty or habit on your entry form even if you move across the country to skate elsewhere, or you use your new club's name. It's not an important point what club name is on a competition event program. If you're at all well known, everybody knows where you really train. When I was competing in pairs a couple of generations ago, our first coach taught at clubs in two cities. She listed all her pupils as being from one of those clubs just out of convenience when she was filing entry papers, but we really trained at the other location. I think we actually skated at the club we supposedly represented maybe twice in our five years with her, as guest performers in club shows. Even when we moved on to another coach in yet other cities across the country, event programs still gave the name of that original club where we never really did skate. Nobody cared, nobody questioned that. Same among my skating friends in a few other countries -- the UK, the USA, Italy.

I've never heard of that situation you described, but it sounds like a form of petty localized corruption. Does anyone at the ISU know that is happening? (And I apologize for not knowing what country you mean. Looking at flag logos, I'm assuming Czechia? If it's not happening even in the original other half of Czechoslovakia, then it sounds like a private scam cooked up by a few local clubs. As other responses say, if you signed some kind of contract, check it out. If you know a lawyer personally who'll look at the contract for free, ask. And then ignore a demand for a "transfer fee".)

Thank you for your kind response. Unfortunatelly, it probably is a "heritage" of past times... That kind of heritage that we need to get rid of as soon as possible. It really is a principle that is "codified" or "enacted", meaning it is described in a directive, as a rule that is "obligatory" for all clubs, though if the club does not require that, it will not happen . And yes it is terrifying. I want to put all my possible effort to kindly change that. It IS wierd.

I tried to talk about this on national level with national safeguard, but it was never understood nor I was helped at all. I was just given instructions to "try someone else" with what I want. I understand that. It's so strange and wierd that no one actually wants to get dirty with it.

If there is someone from ISU who would know what do I do with it, please, advise.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To whom it may concern, this is an automated translation of that specific part
of the internal directive of the Czech figureskating association:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...
1.5. TRAINING FEE (TRANSFER FEE)

1.5.1. In the event of the agreement of both clubs on the transfer of an athlete, the price of the training fee is fixed for all
athletes.

1.5.2. Amount of training fee:
a) 7,000 CZK – Junior and Senior categories
b) 5,000 CZK – Intermediate Novice and Advanced Novice categories
c) 4,000 CZK – Basic novice category
d) 3,000 CZK – Cubs category
e) 2,000 CZK – Pre-chicks and Chicks categories
The condition for applying the training fee at the stated prices is that the athlete has been registered in the original club for at least 3 years. If this condition is not met, the price of the training fee is reduced by 25% of the given amount for each year.

1.5.3. When transferring to another discipline, 10% of the above amounts are paid.

1.5.4. In the event that the original club decides not to require a training fee, it will state this in writing in the statement on the athlete's transfer request according to point 1.2.1.3

1.5.5. After the athlete's transfer is approved by the organization's Board, the receiving club is obliged to pay the parent club a training fee within 30 days of the transfer approval, unless there is another written agreement.

1.5.6. In the event that the 30-day deadline is not met, or if there is no other agreement, the athlete's competitive activities will be temporarily suspended.
...

The original directive in Czech language is here, still in charge and obligatory:

https://www.czechskating.org/files/documents/01ae79a4c89ee13e9ee81144199cfad0.pdf