This FD was all kinds of messed up. The Swedes were ROBBED big time it was as clear as day. I'm still not over it. I couldn't enjoy the rest of the competition because of it. I still haven't watched the top 2 teams. I am hoping that they make it, regardless. That was all sorts of politricks, these people need to stop taking us for fools.
2025 Skate to Milano Free Dance
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2015
I missed most of this live last night trying to get a couple of hours of sleep, but aside from all the scoring drama, WOW I have never seen so much movement in ice dance placements from rhythm to free dance. Just wow.
How do you know UtaMasa got "!" for the same reason at Kinoshita and Chinese Nebelhorn?
I still can't figure out why they got "!" at either competition.
Communication No. 2569 (ICE DANCE - Requirements for Technical Rules with ongoing validity 2023-2024) says:
“!” applied in Choreographic Character Step Sequence when the following occur….
...both of the partners are more than 2 meters from one of the barriers
...a retrogression is performed
…pattern is repeated as exactly the same as the Step Sequence, even if the ChSt is skated first
…partners are more than two arms length apart
Do you know any update on this?
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2015
For them, it's the first one. Both technical panels felt they performed their last"step" more than 2 meters away from the barrier.
Wang/Liu and the Swedes also got the same call ( as did a number of other teams in this competition). The call for the Swedes is the one that actually doesn't make sense but they may have been more than two arms length apart at one point.
For all the complaining here about technical calls, I think the real issue isn't the technical calls. It's the PCS. The technical panel was strict on everyone. But, I found all the teams in the final group more compelling than Wang/ Liu. Most of the teams in the second to last group also had better choreo, SS, and performance. Obviously skating at home helped all the Chinese teams, but in the other disciplines ( certainly pairs and to a lesser extent women ( that spot could have gone either way between Cyprus and China-- very evenly matched) the placements seemed fair. This just didn't.
Last edited:
So, all the tech panel needs is feeling, and they don't have to be accurate. At least Masaya got closer than 2 meters.
If a tech panel can decide by feeling, why not judges on PCS?
A Japanese fan on X has come up with another explanation on UtaMasa's "!", which is that the spinning movement in the middle of ChSt might have been regarded retrogressive.
I personally hate choreographic elements. They are just another program component only to benefit teams with higher reputations.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2015
I mean it happened twice with two different technical panels so it wasn't just one person's feeling. But, of course, technical calling is a bit subjective. Humans don't have automatic measuring tapes in their eyes. The strictness of panels vary greatly but they should be consistent throughout a competition and it appears this panel was. My issue is the PCS. But, yes, of course PCS is always very subjective. Wang/ Liu have never appealed to me. They don't have good skating skills. I don't like their choreography, it was messy, and I don't feel they performed particularly well. This judging panel, obviously, felt differently.
Dubious movement from R to F dance!!!
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
I get that, but since the question of who qualifies is on the line, I expect the panels to be thorough. There were multiple reviews on Swedes, which is not really sus on an overall inexperienced team with low level. All these teams save for top 2 are already coming in at below 20's placement level in WC. All of them are about the same and nothing there was obviously better than anyone else. This is why they were reshuffled so much simply because anyone who watched would be having their own preferences but very narrowly -- just for the free. In RD the Swedes stood out.
I mean, maybe I am just hardened by years of experience with Mrazkovs, and Mrazkovs have by far more appealing performances to a casual viewer. Same with Lagault/LeGac. There is simply no knowing why the score is low unless someone falls or screws up a twizzle. Sometimes you can see that a feature is missing on a twizzle, when arms didn't move continously -- i find arms are far easier to watch than legs, lol. And I say that as someone who made some efforts to understand scoring, including watching like 3 times a thorough video on each element put up by a national team breaking down all features and pointing them out in their dances step by step.
Personally, I am only sure that I liked the Hungarians the most, the Japanese --the least, and the Swedes, the Chinese, and the Spanish somewhere in between, but not really all that much. That's just me. Most people didn't even like the Hungarians and liked the Japanese...
Last edited:
Did you actually get a confirmation from someone that UtaMasa got "!" because the tech panel thought both were more than 2 meters from one of the barriers? I personally think they got it because the tech panel regarded the spinning movement in the middles as a retrogression and that explains why Cathy couldn't fix the choreography in two weeks.
I agree with you on Wang/Liu's SS. They looked apparently slow. ISU Technical Specialist Nakako Tsuzuki was the commentator on TV Asahi, and she said they skated cautiously and their edges didn't glide well. This is figure skating and politicking is a part of the judging.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2024
They were very slow comparing even to quite a few teams who skated before them not to mention teams from the final group. Their edges were flat and shaky, it is most visible while they're doing one foot step sequence - they basically move in a straight line forward with barely any curves made by their blades. Also, the program is really boring.
IMO two younger Chinese teams have more potential and are in better shape at this moment (Ren/Xing and Xiao/He) but they don't have so much experience and recognition so they are out of the game for oly's spot I guess.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2024
double post
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
It is very, very hard to judge speed on TV. Source: me. I will never forget the first time I saw Hubbell/Donohue practice live. I since notice a marked difference for other skaters. I really implore people to excersie caution with that, particulary when they had not seen skaters they are comparing live. Commentators commentate from the same tv image the viewers see even when they are physically present at the arena, specifically to have the same experience as the viewer. Source: Ted Barton.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
I was bummed for the Hungarians. They did deserve their spot
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2024
I saw some competitions live and most of the impressions I had prior from TV watching were the same with the note that speedy skaters make a much bigger impression in real life than on TV. I mean, on TV I coud notice they are fast but live watching made me realise how much a difference does it make for overall effect. Mrazkovi for example, I knew from TV they are super fast (in their junior times) but when when I saw them live it was like WOW, they are that fast. Chills.
On the side note, there are tools to actually measure speed. It doesn't need to be judged by impression (live or TV). They were already introduced to some competitions (in Japan particulary) but the data was used only for broadcasting and it was not relevant for judging. Ted and Mark talk a lot about ISU considering and testing some AI tools but I believe they are very reluctant to apply them because it would expose a lot and possibly could cause some shuffles in rankings.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
The speed and intensity of Mrazkovs team is amazing. But, some skaters you will not pick it up (or on the opposite, the camera will show them as similar to others). I actually really want to see Fournier-Beaudry/Cizeron live since I missed out on P/C. I want to see if they are as impressive as Hubbell/Donahue.
I am not here as a super-fan of the Chinese team, but what I saw is that R/M had awesome RD -- and were rewarded despite the panel sitting a presumably biased judge. Then, the judge was removed and R/M didn't skate to the same level as the SP. Which put them in the same bundle as the other 5 teams (Japanese, Chinese, Spanish and Hungarians). And none of them are at the point yet when they make no mistakes. The mistakes and R/M not having yet solidified reputation and skill ended up in a reshuffle.
https://skatingscores.com/2526/oqe/sr/dance/i/bias/ table shows a clear Chinese's judge's bias in RD. But the Chinese didn't do great in the RD. Their judge's score was struck out, and the judge was asked to leave.
What about the free?
Kaz and Georgia were the only ones who judged other countries' skaters higher than their own, but even presuming they were both helping the Chinese, one of the generous scores would be out, and only one left.
On the other end of the spectrum, Cyprus just marked everyone down across the board, and their own team most of all (I dunno if I want to go to Cypres, they sound kindda cruel). The Polish did the same, but with less youthful zeal.
Now, Italians and Spanish both marked their higher and others lower (not helping China, presumably?). If their negative bias was directed against Swedes or the Japanese, you have Spain, Italy, Poland and Cyprus, of who only Spain had a vested interest in dropping Japan and Swedes. It also could be that Geo and Kaz scored China so high and others -- only so insignificantly lower, that they retained the overall positive bias to the others. But this chart shows that the only time Geo shows up as a crazy high score is for Swedes.
Swedes' placement for FD was low across the board, and so are Japanese:
Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics
The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com
Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics
The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com
Chinese were all over the place, but just like Spanish and Hungarians:
Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics
The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com
Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics
The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com
Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics
The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com
In conclusion, it's either the Chinese took the entire panel for dinner and created a complex balance of ups and downs, or Hungary and Spain tried so hard that Chinese ended up taking the spoils, and also the Spanish had better friends than Hungary... or the judges all disagreed.
***
Yes, I really liked the early tests of the AI as well as the ice coverages it generated (skate maps). Ted and Mark talk about it as a direction toward 2030. I am glad it is back on the table, because it kinda fell off.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
Look at the other charts though: there seemed to have been agreement between judges that Japanese and Swedes were lower, and then it's like a random numbers thrown out for Chinese, Hungarians and Spanish. It's crazy, and if you can show a clear pro-Chinese alliances there, please go for it.
Edit: i am proud for Georgia being so pro-Swedish, they outed their score looool!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2024
In RD chinese judge gave AUS team the highest score of all judges (77.23, they ended up with 73.35). In the FD australian judge gave CHN team the second highest score of all judges (105.86, they ended up with 101.24). There was no australian judge in RD and there was no chinese judge in FD. That's how the deals are done.
In RD chinese judge scored well GEO team (8th place from CHN judge - the highest of all judges, ended up in 13th). Georgian also scored CHN team very well and put them 4th in RD and 3rd in FD.
Chinese judge in RD put ISR team in 6th place (the highest of all judges). Israeli judge put CHN team in RD in 4th place.
That is what I see after quick-checking the charts and I will stop here cause I don't even want to check further.
Edit: Huang Feng (CHN judge in rhytm dance) already got a one-year suspension for systematic bias in 2018 at the pairs event in Pyeongchang.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
I don't question Chinese judge's bias in RD. That's why he was removed. (btw other judges with as clear national biases weren't; if you look at men and women, all judges were judging in favor of their own skaters, some of them far more brazenly than dance judges.).
In the free, to me, it looks fairly random if you look at the data for all the judges. The scores from each judge on the panel zig-zags for the Spanish, Chinese and Hungarians. But everyone with an exception of Georgia scored Swedes and Japanese low. And the gripe was that Chinese won a spot at the expense of Swedes and Japanese. I don't think they did. It was either relatively random, or all three of Hungary, Spain and China were making deals and Hungarians were the worst in math. If anything, I would call shenanigans on Hungary... and it didn't pay off.
One judge is not enough: you can see it in the FD for Swedes. Georgia put them into 3rd, and it did nothing for them. Three judges is where you have a guarantee, unless there is just no fixing it.
In the end of the day though, well grats, China and Spain, you just filled out the 4 spots who would not qualify for FD in the Olympics. (shrug).
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2015
Yes, I think it really isn't a conspiracy. Domestic skaters get more support from the home crowd and the judges are human and are influenced by the crowd. We see it all the time. I don't agree with the PCS the Chinese team got, but I understand why it happens.
Similar threads
