Does the IJS incentivize boring programs?

[meem]

Good topic, Mathman . I'm no technical expert but I do know that I've been bored watching way too many skaters' programs over that past 10+ years. Only ice dance has grown more creative & interesting, IMHO. My favorite, the change edge spiral, seems to be a distant memory. Kwan's were beautiful. Is anyone doing them today? The camera never focuses on the skates during a spiral.

 

[ramurphy2005]

My favorite, the change edge spiral, seems to be a distant memory. Kwan's were beautiful. Is anyone doing them today?

Mai Mihara did one recently, but I only remember it because on that particular occasion, her edge wobbled enough for me to notice, and I'm not great at seeing those sorts of things in general.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I miss the spirals for women. Now they incorporate them as two second choreo elements but there was nothing better than the dramatic music rising and a beautiful spiral to accompany it a la Sasah Cohen or Nicole Bobek.
Watching skating this week with some non-skating friends, there are two things that would attract them more to watching skating: 1) good music (as Morozov said, it all starts with the music), and 2) creative moves that not everyone is doing. For example, Ghir and Ambros have a really cool dismount from a lift that no one else is doing.

Had to check out their program, and yes that lift is cool. That's an underrated program - so much intricacy and basically every element has some risk or interesting feature/exit, right to the ending pose - love that they've challenged themselves to do that.

I'd also love to see prolonged spirals - the ChSq is not being marked properly with a lot of skater doing just a throwaway field movement or two that barely covers any ice and scooping up the base value. While do I enjoy a Lambiel head back or Cohen arm-over-her-head scratch spin, I do find it to be a rather traditionalist end to a program (look at my final scratch spin telling everyone I'm just about done). And it should be a level 1 because it literally is the easiest spin you can do (although hard to do it with blinding speed and centring).

I do find that while there aren't as many highlights, the IJS compels skaters to try harder moves and complete their spins and do ACTUAL complex turns in their footwork. Sometimes I'd see a 3 rotation camel spin in the 6.0 programs and I'm like, what was the point of that?! Levels and features increase the risk and if you're a skating afficionado the programs DO look different (same goes with gymnastics - even with banned moves or skills people no longer do, there's room for creativity, uniqueness and performance value).

 

[frompolandwithlove]

To some degree, maybe? It does put heavy emphasis on jumps and I feel like quality of actual skating has gone down - in general of course, as we still have some amazing skaters and 6.0 system also had "weak" skaters. I didn't watch skating before IJS, so I my opinions are based already on comparison, but I remember watching not so long time ago world championships from 90' and thinking to myself "wow, they are so good at skating". For me that's the interesting thing - how better they are not only at jumping, but also at skating than your average guy. Holding an edge, keeping strong posture and beautiful lines, pointed feet, nice extension - those skills are not necesarily rewarded by IJS, so are slowly disappearing. I would love to see a dramatic spiral that goes all the way to the other side of the rink, but I imagine for skaters it feels like precious seconds are being wasted on something that won't earn them any more points than a quick rushed spiral incorporated into choreo sequence.
BUT on the other hand I also think that it has nothing to do with IJS but more to do with trends in choreography and how judging system is being executed in reality. Can't help but feel like ISU is trying to attrack viewers by all means and that leads to all sorts of problems (like ignoring flaws in popular skaters, rewarding so called "athleticism" and "creativity" more than quality skating, correlation between tech score and PCS, etc.), but none of it is IJS fault.
Also, there were plenty of boring programs under 6.0 system as well. We just tend to remember interesting stuff better.

 

[noskates]

I think the new point system is partly responsible for what some call boring programs. I think the incentive to earn points has done away with some of the beautiful moves in skating - like the spiral - that get lost with the emphasis on jumps. I sound like a broken record but I also think some choreographers are lazy and don't look for that new music. Some of them rely on the old war horses because they're familiar and don't need the same amount of creativity. Rohene Ward and Benoit Richaud are always pushing the edge - new music, new moves. I don't blame the skater in this. Some of the music that's out there now is just plain dreadful. Half sound like funeral dirges and more sound like either cats fighting or birds mating. And even the music with lyrics leaves a lot to be desired. What some may call "new and inventive" is just not music fit for figure skating.

However, there is one move that could go away and I would not miss it at all - the Bielmann spin. Granted, if I tried to get my leg up there I'd be in traction for months.....and I realize it takes a lot of flexibility but I find it ugly.

 

[Cutting the ice]

Sometimes difficult things are not artistic, and sometimes artistic things are not difficult. The never-ending conundrum of figure skating.

IJS awards difficulty (TES) but tries to include the artistry (COP) and we may never be content with the final result.

 

[TallyT]

One thing to remember is - just like when people complain that music has gone downhill in quality (check out the comments on any 70s-80s hits video) as have books and films and TV and pretty much everything - while part of it may be arguable and some may simply be 'get off my lawn', there's also the oft-forgotten fact that there were a hell of a lot of boring programs every quad since skating began, whether 6.0 or IJS but - if they were even filmed which most weren't though we can find a few full Worlds comps lurking in youtube's corners - they have vanished into history's forgetteries. Michelle Kwan's and Sasha Cohen's spirals are rightly celebrated, but there was also many many Jane Bloggs whose might have been good but dull/nothing to write home about (says she who can't even twirl slowly in her living room) It's the same with IJS, Yuna's programs are to me as creative and beautiful as the 6.0 divas but there are plenty of Jane Bloggs and the most recent ones we can still watch. And think they are the norm now while the 60s-90s podium winners were the norm then.

That being said... the counting of points does mean everyone goes for the same elements that get them the points, that is just common sense so unless a skater is a well-rounded genius, sameness is going to creep in and again, it probably did before, it definitely did in those old videos. The Kim/Kostner level stars just are able to integrate the counting of points into great programs. There haven't imo been women of that level for quite a while (the scores reflect technical whizzbangery and dodgy judging) but when we get one, we will maybe see how 'everything works!!!' looks again.

 

[TallyT]

I find Levito’s classical style consistently boring, but Gutmann’s style is always fresh and modern, yet she doesn’t get the scores and respect from the judges; however, she is always the darling of fans. It’s endlessly frustrating to me!

That probably has squat to do with IJS and counting of points, and all to do with playing favourites, a problem before and since IJS and one the ISU shows little interest in addressing.

 

[Anna K.]

That probably has squat to do with IJS and counting of points, and all to do with playing favourites, a problem before and since IJS and one the ISU shows little interest in addressing.

...because they believe that scandals may save their cause from boredom?

Just guessing.

 

[Anna K.]

alas

About doing fewer than 7 jumping elements and backloading, it is not prohibited, but it is not profitable, so people don't do it. It was not uncommon for top-level singles skaters under 6.0 to do fewer jumping passes than the allowed maximum in the FS. As long as a man's program contained 1-2 quads and a 3A or a couple of 3As and a 3-3 combination, and the rest were triples, nobody cared if the person didn't do a 2A or a 3-2 combination to fill in the remaining slots. With women it also happened, I am pretty sure Tara Lipinsky won the OG with 6 jumping passes, two of which were 3-3, and Karo had 5 jumping passes in her Itzhak Perlman FS, I believe in 2003. Under 6.0, it might have been wise for someone like Gumennik to do 5 quads and a 3A-3T combo, and use the remaining time and manpower to incorporate more choreo and showcase SS. Under IJS, he'd get lower TES and probably not enough increase or even reduction in PCS.

I'll do some more cross-posting because this looks rather on topic on this thread

Under IJS, there is something similar in Ice Dance where they do 2 lifts for points and then a lift or a spin just as a choreographic decoration. I like this tendency in rule development.
The tendency that I don't like is that holds seem to be forgotten and dance programs often do not look like a dance at all.

 

[Zora]

Is there any particular old-timey move that you would like to see make a comeback?

Toe-steps in a step sequence. I became a huge fan of figure skating thanks to Yagudin's step-sequences. It wasn't the quads, Plushenko had way more reliable quads. It was the step sequences.

I loved spirals for women, but admittedly some women just shouldn't do them because they have other skills which they can execute better.

That's why I think, also because of gender equality, that skaters should have a choice between a second step sequence or a spiral sequence. And I wish they would leave spread eagles, Ina Bauers etc to choreography instead of cramming them into a choreo sequence.

BUT on the other hand I also think that it has nothing to do with IJS but more to do with trends in choreography and how judging system is being executed in reality.

Yes, there's a weird trend in choreography right now, to choose lame pop songs or monotone instrumental music and claim it art. Instead of creating interesting, diverse programs. I think that's just how the current generation views art and I have to accept that. There was a time when I couldn't wait to see everyone's new program, now I don't care, because it's usually a disappointment. I don't blame the IJS for that, because ~2009-2014 was amazing when it came to choreography.

 

[Isk]

Yes, there's a weird trend in choreography right now, to choose lame pop songs or monotone instrumental music and claim it art. Instead of creating interesting, diverse programs. I think that's just how the current generation views art and I have to accept that. There was a time when I couldn't wait to see everyone's new program, now I don't care, because it's usually a disappointment. I don't blame the IJS for that, because ~2009-2014 was amazing when it came to choreography.

The winners of the FS in 2014 OG scored 89 in TES and 90 in PCS (men), 75 in TES and 74 (women) in PCS.
The winners of the FS in 2022 OG scored 121 in TES with fewer jumps and 97 in PCS (men), 106 in TES and 70 (women, I still think she was overscored) in PCS.
Looks like PCS opportunities are not keeping up with the TES opportunities. TES grew by 30-40 points, while PCS stayed about the same. In IJS, this is not something that can't be fine-tuned on the go, one has to reconsider the rules.

 

[TontoK]

The winners of the FS in 2014 OG scored 89 in TES and 90 in PCS (men), 75 in TES and 74 (women) in PCS.
The winners of the FS in 2022 OG scored 121 in TES with fewer jumps and 97 in PCS (men), 106 in TES and 70 (women, I still think she was overscored) in PCS.
Looks like PCS opportunities are not keeping up with the TES opportunities. TES grew by 30-40 points, while PCS stayed about the same. In IJS, this is not something that can't be fine-tuned on the go, one has to reconsider the rules.

I get the point you're making, and I don't necessarily disagree. However, you've picked the champions for your comparison - and it's logical that they are going to be superior (maybe vastly superior) in both marks to the average skater. The opposite is true for the worst skater. Their marks would be considerably lower than the average skater.

What would be more relevant would be a comparison for the median skater in the timeline. I'm too lazy to do this comparison, so I have no idea of what that would reveal, but I don't think we should consider a rule-change based on the Olympic Champions with an eight-year gap.

If it's a case of "the best get better" and everyone else generally doesn't, then that just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[Mathman]

Toe-steps in a step sequence. I became a huge fan of figure skating thanks to Yagudin's step-sequences.

The interesting thing to me is. "everything old is new again." Morosov (Yagudin's choreographer) reached back to Sonja Henie -- the original "dancing on the toe pick" skater, and struck gold. After Yafudoin's remarkable success with this style of step sequence, everyone, including Michelle Kwan, rushed to Morosov begging him, "give me a step sequence like that."

 

[4everchan]

I get the point you're making, and I don't necessarily disagree. However, you've picked the champions for your comparison - and it's logical that they are going to be superior (maybe vastly superior) in both marks to the average skater. The opposite is true for the worst skater. Their marks would be considerably lower than the average skater.

What would be more relevant would be a comparison for the median skater in the timeline. I'm too lazy to do this comparison, so I have no idea of what that would reveal, but I don't think we should consider a rule-change based on the Olympic Champions with an eight-year gap.

If it's a case of "the best get better" and everyone else generally doesn't, then that just the way the cookie crumbles.

picking the champions is not completely a false approach because it does show the "maximum" scores earned.

TES maximum has grown
PCS maximum hasn't grown

 

[4everchan]

On the topic of music. I certainly agree that music from earlier was better, I mean music from 200 years ago for instance

But seriously, I do not agree at all that
1) there are some nice pieces that are not skating music. Most music can be skated to. Maybe not for ice dance but for singles, for sure.
2)music is worse now than during 6.0 era. Should I try to find the programs from the 80-90s that patchwork 15 pieces into SPs ? I mean some people complain a lot with teams doing that in ice dance, and it's often done very nicely (editing is better than it used to be) well, this approach was the norm in the 80-90s... stick as many pieces together to show how versatile a skater is.
3)And finally, it's not IJS who is responsible for bad music choices when they do happen.... It's sometimes, the skaters, sometimes, the coaches or choreographers. But also, let's keep in mind : many of the complaints are because of voiceovers or lyrics or awful singing often in covers... That's the ISU's fault for allowing lyrics. Before lyrics, covers were done instrumentally so at least, it was easier to listen to. People do not like covers often because the human brain/ear will prefer almost automatically the first version they heard of a song... so scrap the lyrics.

 

[Isk]

I get the point you're making, and I don't necessarily disagree. However, you've picked the champions for your comparison - and it's logical that they are going to be superior (maybe vastly superior) in both marks to the average skater. The opposite is true for the worst skater. Their marks would be considerably lower than the average skater.

What would be more relevant would be a comparison for the median skater in the timeline. I'm too lazy to do this comparison, so I have no idea of what that would reveal, but I don't think we should consider a rule-change based on the Olympic Champions with an eight-year gap.

If it's a case of "the best get better" and everyone else generally doesn't, then that just the way the cookie crumbles.

I looked up WCs for last 10 years, and it's a consistent trend for the top 3-5 men to score significantly higher in TES than PSC. I didn't check this, but I think that at least some of the other guys scored less TES because they made mistakes, rather than because they intentionally skated clean simpler programs. With women the situation is a bit different: there was a peak of TES>PCS in 2018-2021 (Eteri women), then the scores evened out. The rest of the field is more homogeneous in both men and women: TES~PCS.
For women it might not matter as much, but for men I think we should look at the top, because the top skaters drive the rest of the competition. Other skaters don't look at the middle of SB or even worlds FS score list, they look at the top in deciding what to invest their training time into.

 

[Demandred]

PCS scores for the top skaters were a quite a bit lower in the first few years of IJS, in the 2006 OLympcics nobody was getting even 8.5, even 8s were very, very rare. Even Lambiel didn't score over 8 in any of the five PCS components in either of his programs in Torino or when he won the world title in 2005. Sasha Cohen's highly praised short program got 31.40 in PCS with individual component scores between 7.54 and 8.07, today it would get easy 9 in most components if not all. The ICE Dance PCSs are even more striking from a modern POV, almost nobody got individual scores over 8.0 while today the judge are giving 9s to the top teams as a matter of course and the champions are getting almost perfect scores (Papadakis and Ciseron got 59.40 out of 60 possible PCS at the 2022 Olympics Free Danse and even the silver medalists' skate got 58.23 which is an average individual score of 9.7).

But there is obviously a limit how much these scores can be increased since there is a maximum of 10 and we've pretty much reached it in Ice Dance and to a lesser extent in men's.

 

[4everchan]

In ice dance, as the elements are "required" there is no problem as the best teams earn their levels and that's actually promoting, usually, better skating (at least for elements with blade control).

But yeah, PCS has increased every year for a while, and as it is tapped at 10.0, there is less and less difference between the top PCS skaters and the second tier. It's very hard for a PCS skater now to make up ground based on their skating skills and performance. Quads are way too powerful. So in that sense, IJS doesn't necessarily create boring programs but it can create "boring" skaters if you are a fan of beautiful skating without the jumps.

 

[frompolandwithlove]

TES maximum has grown
PCS maximum hasn't grown

PCS scores for the top skaters were a quite a bit lower in the first few years of IJS, in the 2006 OLympcics nobody was getting even 8.5, even 8s were very, very rare. Even Lambiel didn't score over 8 in any of the five PCS components in either of his programs in Torino or when he won the world title in 2005. Sasha Cohen's highly praised short program got 31.40 in PCS with individual component scores between 7.54 and 8.07, today it would get easy 9 in most components if not all.

That's yet again a problem of inconsistent judging and lenient way we treat PCS, like it's a nice little bonus for good jumping. Do we really think current crop of skaters has better skating skills than skaters 15-20 years ago? Sure, new World Records are good for bringing some attention to the sport, but if said records are, well, fabricated (meaning: mediocre programs are scored like masterpieces), the audience, especially new and uneducated on rules and scoring, will be left uninterested and unmotivated to watch more skating. And yes, it can lead to skaters just giving up on working on skating skills and such (maybe except for presentation, current trends seem to value presentation taken to almost extremes), and therefore to more boring programs. I wish we could find a way to make PCS more based on measures and less on subjectivity, so it could actually tell us something about skaters and differences between them. Right now getting 9s means nothing.