Shibsib spat
- Thread starter TontoK
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- Joined
- May 25, 2014
I would say that applies to a lot more than just figure skating - not saying you were implying otherwise, of course.
But in this particular case, I would find the behavior troubling whether or not I had any previous opinion of the people involved - or even knew who they were.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
Has anyone seen them skate yet? What are their programs like? Do they have their twizzels back?
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- Sep 1, 2020
In this thread, I see fans commenting about personal perceptions and sharing their own thought processes. I don't see anyone trying to justify behavior intruded upon between two siblings and former champions who are obviously experiencing a tremendous amount of stress. The optics are bad; the intrusiveness and posting of this video is worse. The behavior exhibited in the clip is unpleasant and clearly upsetting to many fans. Let's keep in mind that we are not privy to the full context. I personally cannot hear everything that's being said. Thus, we are all simply speculating and surmising, since we don't have all the facts.
It's quite sad that both siblings seem frustrated, unhappy with each other, and stressed out. I would hope that coming back to competition is what they both truly desired to do together and that both were and are fully on board. Too bad they tried to take this on, apparently, in such a short period of time. A two-year lead-up to an Olympic season comeback seems much more realistic than in the Olympic season, especially if you haven't been in competition shape for many years.
At least, at the end of what we see, neither Alex nor Maia stormed out of the rink. They both skated a section of whatever routine they were arguing about. What this unfortunate prying/ spying video incompletely exposes makes me wonder if this is how the ShibSibs behaved with each other when training early in their career? Or, if this awful bickering is more recent, as precipitated by self-imposed perfection and unresolved competitive desire of both in unequal measure? I wish Alex & Maia the peace of forgiveness and reconciliation.
If they both truly want this and are both up to the challenges, including overly judgmental attitudes by fans, then I hope they prevail and can find some fulfillment together in the process, no matter their competitive results.
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- Oct 22, 2022
Thank you! I didn't watch the whole video or comment on it specifically, since I couldn't make out a word he was saying. I don't know if that was my hearing or my computer, but all I saw was him waving his arms around while she and whoever was at the boards listened. I could hear the tone of his voice, but it just sounded frustrated but not overly loud or raised in pitch. I guess I missed more after I turned it off. Still, I'm relieved to know I wasn't the only one who saw but didn't hear.
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- Jun 21, 2003
My very complaint about using songs with lyrics.
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- Jan 12, 2004
I am astounded that some people find the posting of this video worse than Alex's behavior. This type of behavior persists and often escalates in isolation and secrecy. I'm not a fan of Lease and wouldn't have grabbed the video from his Patreon and posted it to YouTube. But I'm glad some gutsy person did. It's better that this situation has been brought out into the light.
The term "bad optics" minimizes the seriousness of what is happening in this video. This isn't just fans getting a peek at how the sausage is made and finding it sometimes isn't pretty. We all know that skating partners get tired and cranky and sometimes snap at each other. We know they have disagreements in the process of hashing out their programs. I think Alex's behavior goes well beyond acceptable arguing between partners.
I was able to catch about 90 percent of what was said. That was plenty. I heard the insults and name calling Alex directed at his sister. I saw the aggressive body language and his mocking of her. If you set aside all that, just what he says is sometimes appalling. "She has no right to question me". "I'll be the reason we get through it."
I wish both Alex and Maia healing; but I don't think they'll get it by downplaying the seriousness of this episode.
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- Apr 23, 2018
Ooooohhhhkay, that's not at all asking for Nemesis to come along with a big fat karmic fishslap of fail, mate...
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- Sep 1, 2020
To each their own in how you are perceiving this intrusive peek into an on-ice training clip. Nothing I have said 'downplays' normal upsetting and dismaying concerns fans may have upon viewing the clip. Personally, I am more disturbed by the video someone posted on IG a while ago of a former European skater, now coach, verbally castigating a young student and violently striking them to the ice.
Maia and Alex are both adult siblings and former champions who have been through a lot together. I am not in possession of enough information about them personally, especially over the period they have been away from the sport, to make definitive personal judgments. Nor do I have enough information about what's going on in this clip to play the expert enforcer of training relationship behavior between athletes. I have speculations, some of which I voiced, which does not mean I'm right or wrong in my speculations. I will pray for Maia & Alex, and I wish them well. Moreso, I will pay attention to taking care of my own life and my own personal relationships.
Again, I see no one in this thread 'downplaying' what they see in the clip. Commenters are simply sharing their immediate perceptions and thought processes. I'm sure plenty of other fans are remaining quiet in order to avoid aggressive enforcement of how they are supposed to view and describe the behavior in this clip.
Kudos to everyone who can make out most of the audio in this clip, and to those who are able to employ body language interpretive skills.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't think that fan dismay is the issue here. I don't think that David Lease is the issue. Alex has had plenty of time to work on his apology. That he hasn't done so tells me that he doesn't believe that he did anything wrong.
Alas.
If this was not something that was said and done in the heat of the moment, if this was not something that he was sorry about, if this was and is his general attitude, then...
Sorry, Alex. You will not get to the Olympics and it will be because of you. This is an unprofessional destructive behavior that is not compatible with serious success in any field of human activity
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- Mar 7, 2015
Actually, athletes usually have a code of conduct to follow if they want to represent their country at the Olympics. It's usually not limited to doping rules but also behavioural conduct. Depending on what rules are included in the USA Olympic Committee code of conduct for athletes, Alex could be banned for verbal and psychological abuse. I am not sure this is common and have no idea about it happening in the USA before. But it's not impossible that the decision of participating to the Olympic Games may not longer be in the hands of skating judges.Sorry, Alex. You will not get to the Olympics and it will be because of you. This is an unprofessional destructive behavior that is not compatible with serious success in any field of human activity
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- Sep 1, 2020
Alex may or may not decide to apologize publicly simply because the private training session was intrusively spied upon and exposed. Hopefully, he has apologized privately to his sister. But again, since I am not privy to their personal family dynamics, psychology, and emotional lives, I bow out in regard to telling Alex what he needs to do publicly in the aftermath of the posting of this clip. What he does next is up to him. And for sure, since his behavior has been publicly exposed, he may face official 'code of conduct' repercussions (as indicated by @4everchan). Hopefully, Alex will seek help to resolve his troubling behavior, which reportedly (I recently learned) has also in the past been commented on by a former girlfriend on social media.
I have also recently seen it mentioned by some who follow and cover the sport that indeed (as I had wondered earlier) Alex has been known to engage in questionable behavior in his personal relationships and during training sessions. I was previously unaware of these rumors of Alex's past behavior.
It's neither here nor there in being an 'issue' that fans are dismayed and taken aback by seeing Alex's concerning interactions with Maia in the posted clip. It is understandable and normal for fans who were unaware of previous questionable behavior by Alex to be saddened and dismayed. Everyone has a right to feel however they feel about this and to express how they feel, without others questioning, policing, and judging immediate reactions that may differ from their own.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
The case that comes to mind is that of U.S. swimmer Ryan Lochte at the 2016 summer Olympics. He went on a drunken binge in Rio, got involved with the local police, ;led about it, etc. He was suspended bu the U.S. Swimming Association and the USOC for 10 months and he lost most of his endorsement contracts.
Later he was on Dancing with the Stars and the snow had to hire extra security people to prevent fans from rushing the stage in protest.
For me personally, it was skier Bode Miller. who acted like such a jackass that I wrote to the U.S. Olympic Committee and cancelled my pledge to make a donation. I don't even remember now what he did that irked me so, but I have never given the Olympic movement a dime since.
By the way, speaking of the Salt Lake City Olympics in 2002, if you Google "2002 Olympics scandal," the top story is not Sale & Pelletier vs Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, but rather the bribery and corruption within the USOC and the IOC regarding the bidding process. Ten members of the IOC were forced to resign and the head of the Salt Lake City organizing committee was fired. (The Organizing Committee had spent $15,000,000 in bribes,}
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- Jun 21, 2003
Wait! Are you questioning, policing, and judging people whose reaction was that Alex did a terrible thing and should apologize?
I personally have little sympathy for privileged hot-heads who respond to stress and adversity by lashing out at others. Some people really DO have something to complain about with respect to bad things that have happened to them. Young Mr. Shibutani is not one of them.
Thank you for this information, even if it is very depressing.
I second your wish that Alex Shibutani may seek help for his destructive behaviour, but think the chances of that are slim. Since this seems to be a long-standing issue I suppose he has a firm network of supporters / enablers who protect him from any consequences of his acts, like that person standing ringside while he abused his sister.
They are not really doing him any favors.
In any case I have lost all joy in the Shibutani successes over the years, and wish now someone else had won that Bronze medal
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- Sep 23, 2020
With all due respect. I have just performed the exercise out of curiosity after reading your post, and nope, two top results Google offered me when asked to search "2002 Olympic scandal" were those two:
https://www.grunge.com/723422/the-2002-winter-olympics-figure-skating-scandal-explained/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympics_figure_skating_scandal
Only the third one was connected to the bid bribery followed by a good mixture of the two. So it seems what you get as the top story really depends , most of all on your history with Google, I guess.
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I got :With all due respect. I have just performed the exercise out of curiosity after reading your post, and nope, two top results Google offered me when asked to search "2002 Olympic scandal" were those two:
https://www.grunge.com/723422/the-2002-winter-olympics-figure-skating-scandal-explained/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympics_figure_skating_scandal
Only the third one was connected to the bid bribery followed by a good mixture of the two. So it seems what you get as the top story really depends , most of all on your history with Google, I guess.
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AI : "there are two"
Wikipedia : figure skating
Wikipedia: bid
It may depend on country of origin as well as browsing history. Both seem to be treated pretty equally for me.
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- Sep 23, 2020
I did not ask AI, just Google search as was proposed in the post I was responding to,
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- Jan 28, 2013
We may be running out of news and views regarding this. I don't see many minds being changed. I know where I stand.
However, I do think we need to clear up a misconception. This episode became public not because of some nefarious evil-doer skulking in the corner spying on their practice with a video camera. It became public because it was livestreamed on the internet, as is the case for all the events in that rink.
Now, you may complain that it blew up because of Dave Lease, and you may be correct. But it was already out there, and it is likely that Dave Lease was tipped off by one or more of the general skating fandom who had already seen it.
Dave Lease's role here is irrelevant to discussion of anyone's conduct during that session. It's a "shoot the messenger" tactic.
However, I do think we need to clear up a misconception. This episode became public not because of some nefarious evil-doer skulking in the corner spying on their practice with a video camera. It became public because it was livestreamed on the internet, as is the case for all the events in that rink.
Now, you may complain that it blew up because of Dave Lease, and you may be correct. But it was already out there, and it is likely that Dave Lease was tipped off by one or more of the general skating fandom who had already seen it.
Dave Lease's role here is irrelevant to discussion of anyone's conduct during that session. It's a "shoot the messenger" tactic.
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