Shibsib spat

[skatemd1]

This is all very depressing. Everyone in the sport seems to be on the same page, maintaining that any kind of abusive behavior is OK as long as no one finds out about it.

Yes, it is depressing that some people in the sport seem to think this is OK. But I am not on that page. I see from the comments and reactions above that I am far from alone in that sentiment, which is reassuring. I don't think it's OK to be abusive like this, to anyone, or for us to just pretend we don't see this kind of bad behavior when it happens in front of us, not in this sport or any other. Frankly, I find some of the rationalizations people are making for it to be pretty lame and non-persuasive. Sorry, just being honest.

 

[TallyT]

There was a round table discussion that weighed in a bit on this from Russian skaters' views (Medvedeva, Skoptsova, Averbukh, and Yagudin).

Sources:
DobroFON
Sports.ru (Browser translation below)

Anastasia Skoptsova: Unfortunately, this is not the most pleasant topic. A video appeared on the network of Maya and Alex Shibutani literally swearing, it's even difficult to call it swearing, because Alex scolds Maya like a little girl. She is standing, silent. It is not known who is behind the board - presumably, this is their mother. He shouts at her loudly, bad words. Long video.

Ilya Averbukh: Wait, are they brother and sister?

Alexei Yagudin: Relatives.

Skoptsova: They interrupted their careers for 7 years. This is not Kamila's two years for you.

Evgenia Medvedeva: After the 2018 Olympic season, we did not even skate in the show for seven years.

Skoptsova: Maya managed to overcome cancer. And now they are back together, they say that they are in great shape, but recently they leaked this video. First of all, a question to, forgive me, the bastards who do this. What happens between the coach and the athlete, between partners in training – in no way should end up on social networks.

This is simply unethical. If I had come across such a video, I would never have posted it.

Averbukh: This is a person who latches on to this topic and promotes it. You contradict yourself. So delicate: I wouldn't blow it up, I'd be in jail... Here, some bastard posted it, and now we will start discussing it in all ears.

Skoptsova: Some guy leaked the video, filmed it on the sly.

Medvedeva: This is a live camera. Someone filmed it from the screen and posted it.

Skoptsova: What am I getting at? What happens between the coach and the athlete, between partners – no one should know about it. It's like going into your kitchen and filming what you and your wife are talking about, swearing, who didn't wash the dishes. <... >

Averbukh: I hope there are no pushes there? Well, that's all... This is in any couple. The partner is standing, shouting, the coach is waiting for them to talk themselves out. An ordinary story. Moreover, they are brother and sister.

Yagudin: And in your pair with Irina Lobacheva, who shouted at whom? Or no one at all?

Averbukh: They shouted, of course. And I shouted, and Ira shouted, and the coach shouted at us. And they dispersed. You can make a whole film about it. People from other sides, but not us, threw covers at each other.

Skoptsova: Grischuk threw skates at Platov, no?

Averbukh: So what? This is a closed internal process of this preparation, of these guys. And you don't need to write your advice there, pay attention to this. The training process takes place. People work beyond their limits, and they are in this process of nervous tension, in a situation of stress. I say this for such a philistine story that suddenly begins to rush to the defense of one or the other.

Imagine that this is a planet where it is better not to approach at all, not to enter. I am sure that if we go to the training of the guys, to other rinks, everywhere there is its own atmosphere that you can snatch, catch and then give your advice.

Medvedeva: Okay, you say it's beyond the pale. Is there a line at all?

Averbukh: The verge, of course, is physical violence. <... >

Skoptsova: Going back to Maya and Alex. There is profanity in the video, but no matter how ugly it is in relation to a woman, to her own sister... Kirill Aleshin and I had a difficult off-season before winning the World Junior Championship, and we argued so that this was just a nice conversation.

I screamed, Kirill freaked out. Judges came to us to watch the programs. When the judges come, everyone rolls and smiles. And we had such a fight that Kirill ran out of the ice. I was afraid that he would take the skates now, and I would never see him again. We shouted not only obscenities, I'm afraid to even say.

That's the kind of sport. And there were cases in history, I will not name names, when the partners of their partners with supports deliberately dropped their partners, and with their heads on the board... True, there were such stories.

It seems to me that what is in the couple should remain in the couple. And what is between the coach and the athlete should also remain between them.

Well, my opinion of these people has gone down a lot and it wasn't that high to start with.

 

[Isk]

Well, my opinion of these people has gone down a lot and it wasn't that high to start with.

I was never of high opinion about Skoptsova/Aleshin, IMO they are not good dancers. I also never was a fan of Medvedeva for certain reasons unrelated to skating. She is silent in this discussion, she is a very smart person. I can't say much about Averbukh, I don't remember a single program he and Irina skated, so...

 

[Mathman]

What burned my cookies about the round table discussion was the attitude, "We're famous athletes. Of course we scream profanities at our sisters and partners. Doesn't everyone?"

No.

 

[Isk]

It's common in the theatre arts as well. Dance particularly, but also acting and singing. Never experienced it myself as a student/performer in any of those fields or in sports, but saw it often. And I know two young people studying to be a fashion designer and a chef who are seeing therapists because of emotional abuse from their instructors.

Can't even say "that's what human nature has become today", because in fact it was worse in the recent past. From what I hear and see, there actually has been some improvement. Not enough yet, but some.

Yes. Rumours about directors, musicians complaining about conductors, accompanists complaining about soloists, and they all complain that they don't get paid enough, which is true. I distance myself from all this, just help some people I know financially occasionally. Doesn't prevent me from enjoying good music and good productions.

 

[TontoK]

The Shibutanis have done an interview addressing the training video. It is carefully crafted, as it should be after a month.

Those who wish to look past the incident or take a forgive-and-forget approach now have an avenue to do so with honor. That group of fans will not include me. I do not wish him well, competitively or otherwise, and sadly that means I cannot wish her well either.

US Olympic medalists Shibutani siblings address leaked expletive-laced video of Alex berating Maia: ‘I lost my temper’

In the video that surfaced last month, Alex can be heard directing an expletive-laced rant at his younger sister.

nypost.com

 

[museksk8r]

The Shibutanis have done an interview addressing the training video. It is carefully crafted, as it should be after a month.

Those who wish to look past the incident or take a forgive-and-forget approach now have an avenue to do so with honor. That group of fans will not include me. I do not wish him well, competitively or otherwise, and sadly that means I cannot wish her well either.

US Olympic medalists Shibutani siblings address leaked expletive-laced video of Alex berating Maia: ‘I lost my temper’

In the video that surfaced last month, Alex can be heard directing an expletive-laced rant at his younger sister.

nypost.com

Yeah, I also have a real problem with how Alex abused Maia and we need to be frank with acknowledging that that’s what went down and not excuse it for any perceived “cultural” reasons or because he’s a tortured artist personality or for whatever excuse. Would he be apologizing if not for the fact that he was caught on record behaving this way and due to the public backlash? It is NOT okay for ANYONE to behave in this manner!

 

[4everchan]

Oh well. I won't judge them on that leaked video. I will judge them on the ice. And from what they have done in the RD, it wasn't good enough to get to the Olympics. So whether you support them or not, the reality is that their return is a difficult enterprise.

 

[CellarDweller]

i'm only just finding out about this, because my Google News gave me a story that they've issued statements about it.

Shibutani sibling ice dancers address leaked video of Alex berating Maia

Ice dancers Alex and Maia Shibutani say there are no hard feelings between them after a video of Alex berating his sister in practice was leaked on social media.

apnews.com

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yeah, I also have a real problem with how Alex abused Maia and we need to be frank with acknowledging that that’s what went down

That's not what abuse is. It was a normal conversation of someone being angry and having a verbal quarrel with a partner who is swearing right back at them.

You "having a problem" with it is completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with their skating and nobody's work should be judged based upon a separate thing. Twitter has rotted society's brain.

 

[Skating91]

Sounds like they've patched things up and moved on. Good for them.

 

[Arigato]

Anyone got a link to the Shib video where a brother and sister are having a family argument and the internet is losing their pearl-clutching minds over? Thanks.

 

[museksk8r]

That's not what abuse is. It was a normal conversation of someone being angry and having a verbal quarrel with a partner who is swearing right back at them.

You "having a problem" with it is completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with their skating and nobody's work should be judged based upon a separate thing. Twitter has rotted society's brain.

I am entitled to my thoughts and feelings over the incident just as you are and I never said his treatment of her had anything to do with their skating. That video does not constitute as “normal conversation” to me and I am not on Twitter, so stop assuming I have jumped on some social justice bandwagon. I make my own choices and perceptions based on my own observations and experiences.

 

[Mathman]

The Shibutanis have done an interview addressing the training video. It is carefully crafted, as it should be after a month.

It does kind of read like it was ghost-written by a professional damage control operative.

Oh well, they said what they had to say and on we go. Otherwise, I'll just keep my thoughts to myself.

 

[Arigato]

I just saw the video. It's called real life. Their lives. Not yours. Not mine. That anyone would attack them for what they have a right to believe is a private convo is as bad as that Simon guy at Eurosport getting axed for making comments during what he believed was a private convo as well.

 

[4everchan]

I just saw the video. It's called real life. Their lives. Not yours. Not mine. That anyone would attack them for what they have a right to believe is a private convo is as bad as that Simon guy at Eurosport getting axed for making comments during what he believed was a private convo as well.

I have more of an issue with Simon because he was insulting someone who wasn't even there nor probably worked with him regularly. His intentions were just viles. I can see in the Shibs a lot of issues but also an intent of skating better. I don't think telling at your partner is the easy to some things but there is a common goal... Simon was just a jerk

 

[Arigato]

I have more of an issue with Simon because he was insulting someone who wasn't even there nor probably worked with him regularly. His intentions were just viles. I can see in the Shibs a lot of issues but also an intent of skating better. I don't think telling at your partner is the easy to some things but there is a common goal... Simon was just a jerk

Leakers of private conversations are jerks with an agenda.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I never said his treatment of her had anything to do with their skating.

Your comment, which was in response and in agreement with someone saying "they would not support the Shibs anymore", denigrates someone's work and achievements because of something else unrelated.

It's a completely anti-intellectual stance, and this is exactly the mentality that has been on the rise in society, as people carelessly jump to stupid conclusions and condemnations on social media.

If I love a painting and later find out the painter was a murderer, it would be illogical to suddenly condemn the painting because of this. Nothing about the painting has changed and nobody's judgement of it should change. If anything, it should only increase the scientific value of the painting, if it can be used in a study that is able to link "genes that make people more likely to murder" with "genes that determine the types of colors and shapes painters prefer to use".

Nobody should have ever bought into the superficial narrative/appearance of "two perfect siblings" anyway. Stop projecting things onto people you don't know, stop having unrealistic expectations about people who happen to be in the spotlight. Not to mention, these are people in their 30's, and Maia has plenty of money and freedom. She can walk away at any time if she is unhappy with her brother's criticisms. There is no abuse happening. He expressed normal human anger about feeling like his time was being wasted and his business partner was not working hard enough or learning from previous mistakes. If you want to advocate that nobody is allowed to express anger in private with a business partner, then you're one step away from saying we should live in a "Brave New World" where we all take pills to suppress our human emotions.

 

[museksk8r]

Your comment, which was in response and in agreement with someone saying "they would not support the Shibs anymore", denigrates someone's work and achievements because of something else unrelated.

It's a completely anti-intellectual stance, and this is exactly the mentality that has been on the rise in society, as people carelessly jump to stupid conclusions and condemnations on social media.

If I love a painting and later find out the painter was a murderer, it would be illogical to suddenly condemn the painting because of this. Nothing about the painting has changed and nobody's judgement of it should change. If anything, it should only increase the scientific value of the painting, if it can be used in a study that is able to link "genes that make people more likely to murder" with "genes that determine the types of colors and shapes painters prefer to use".

Nobody should have ever bought into the superficial narrative/appearance of "two perfect siblings" anyway. Stop projecting things onto people you don't know, stop having unrealistic expectations about people who happen to be in the spotlight. Not to mention, these are people in their 30's, and Maia has plenty of money and freedom. She can walk away at any time if she is unhappy with her brother's criticisms. There is no abuse happening. He expressed normal human anger about feeling like his time was being wasted and his business partner was not working hard enough or learning from previous mistakes. If you want to advocate that nobody is allowed to express anger in private with a business partner, then you're one step away from saying we should live in a "Brave New World" where we all take pills to suppress our human emotions.

There is no need to be rude in your responses. You should never claim someone is stupid because they support a view that is different from yours. Earlier you claimed that my feelings were “irrelevant”, which was very dismissive. If someone doesn’t want to cheer or support S/S; that’s their right. I don’t understand why that should affect you and you seem to be taking it personally, which I find confusing. I realize no one is perfect; however, we as intellectual humans should strive to make amends and be better people when we commit mistakes and behave badly. The behavior that Alex exhibited is extremely triggering for victims of abuse and I find it highly insensitive when some people try to normalize bad behavior like this.

I personally have had an experience in my life many years ago when I was 22 years old and someone I was dating shouted close up to my face for an extended period of time and punched the wall behind where I was standing and claimed he would kill me while holding a knife in his hand, all because he was jealous that I was merely talking to a friend of his. I was physically unharmed, but really shaken by this event and it triggered a memory I had from when I was 12 years old and had someone I believed was a childhood friend hold a knife to my neck. I was also sexually abused by an older cousin on multiple occasions when I was 12 years old and, as an adult, my mom and I had a conversation where she revealed than an uncle, who is now passed away, had sexually abused her when she was a little girl. It’s frightening to think how abuse like this goes unchecked for many years. It’s extremely saddening to think about how long this has gone on in my two favorite sports, figure skating and gymnastics.

In the current sociopolitical climate we live in where hatred and division have run rampant among our “leaders”, we should strive to be kinder and more empathetic to one another, especially in times when we are struggling, as was evident in Alex and Maia’s video. A skater of Alex’s caliber knew that training sessions were being recorded at that rink; the video was especially triggering because it posed the question to many who wondered if this is how he treats her when they know they’re being recorded, then imagine how he treats her when the cameras are off? In the spirit of showing empathy, I don’t wish ill will on the Shib sibs. I do hope that Alex is trying to better manage his temper. I agree with you that Maia certainly can file a complaint against her brother and end the partnership if she believes her safety is/was in danger.

I just want everyone to be safe and I want everyone to do what’s best for their overall health. Life is way too stressful and time is too fleeting to be unhappy in one’s choices.

 

[Mathman]

In the current sociopolitical climate we live in where hatred and division have run rampant among our “leaders”, we should strive to be kinder and more empathetic to one another...

I am glad that you escaped permanent harm from your terrifying ordeals in the past and that you have arrived at the place of "striving to be kinder to one another."