Shibsib spat

[Skating91]

Very different context.
Meagan has been vocal about judging, doping etc Yes. However, she did so on her own and not while she was hired by let's say, CBC as a commentator. She's been extremely professional as a commentator. There is a difference when you are employed by a network : you represent also your employer. What Simon did was wrong and the proof is in the pudding : he's not been rehired. Meagan still works because people will like or dislike her stances but se was not representing any network when she did so...

Maybe Simon (and Teddy) just don't like Meagan, and they made the comments between themselves in a private conversation on a stream that had been left running, their microphones had been left running long after they should have been cut off.

Whatever if they don't like someone. I've talked, laughed about people I don't like behind their back, and I'm sure many, many, many people have talked about me behind my back, don't like me. I don't care. If it was caught on camera, I'd make some joke about it the next time I came across them. If someone else made a joke about me like that, I'd just confront them the next time I saw them make a joke, shake hands.

He's British they call each other the c word whether they like you or not, so this was quite tame. Just two men at the end of a long day just bantering among themselves. Meagan is a little antagonistic, I doubt her feelings were hurt she's tougher than you give her credit for.

 

[TontoK]

You are putting words in my mouth. Simon was working for his network, this is where I draw the line. I don't approve of verbal abuse ever. However, for having dealt with verbally aggressive siblings, I know that there is nuance to be made. Not the same if an unrelated co-worker did the same to me.

You've mentioned your siblings before, and I haven't addressed that as I wish I had. So here goes:

I am terribly sorry you had to deal with that, and I'm even sorrier if you still do. I can't imagine growing up like that. I wish someone had stood up for you. You seem a decent guy, and nobody deserves that, especially from the people who should always have your back. Childhood squabbles are one thing, but if you're now tolerating abuse from family that you'd never tolerate from a stranger or co-worker, I hope you rethink that.

I walked away from a relative (admittedly not a parent or sibling) who was a relentlessly negative influence in my life. I didn't make a fuss, didn't stir up a family squabble - just blocked the phone number, blocked from social media, and never explained to other family members who felt the need to stick an oar in. Best decision I ever made.

 

[4everchan]

You've mentioned your siblings before, and I haven't addressed that as I wish I had. So here goes:

I am terribly sorry you had to deal with that, and I'm even sorrier if you still do. I can't imagine growing up like that. I wish someone had stood up for you. You seem a decent guy, and nobody deserves that, especially from the people who should always have your back. Childhood squabbles are one thing, but if you're now tolerating abuse from family that you'd never tolerate from a stranger or co-worker, I hope you rethink that.

I walked away from a relative (admittedly not a parent or sibling) who was a relentlessly negative influence in my life. I didn't make a fuss, didn't stir up a family squabble - just blocked the phone number, blocked from social media, and never explained to other family members who felt the need to stick an oar in. Best decision I ever made.

Families are complicated. I am okay. I put enough distance where needed. You have to understand that sometimes, we do things to protect other people, for instance, aging parents. I am in a safe space. Regarding the Shibs, my point of view is that it is for them to assess where that safe space is. If they yell at each other during practice, because they have always done so, even when they were kids, it's not for me to judge them nor the situation. There are so many layers in here. If anything, perhaps that the leaked video will make them realize that it's possible to do things in other ways. I hope so for them. And I say them because though Alex is the one who is the more violent one in that video, who knows if that's always the case ? She yelled back at him a bit... and perhaps, on other occasions, she was the instigator...Who knows ? I also say them, because perhaps indeed, Maia will understand that this is not OKAY for many people and that she doesn't have to endure it. It's very very complicated when this sort of behaviour, that as you mentioned, can come from childhood squabbles, evolves into adulthood, and especially, in their case, as a "working unit"

Thanks for your words.

 

[TontoK]

Families are complicated. I am okay. I put enough distance where needed. You have to understand that sometimes, we do things to protect other people, for instance, aging parents. I am in a safe space.

I understand, and I am very thankful to hear the last sentence I've clipped. And whether you think it will do any good or not, I've just said a little prayer for you. Blessings, friend,

 

[Doggygirl]

What is all this focus on Dave Lease about? Does his dissemination of the video somehow make the content less despicable? How do his motivations factor into what a POS Alex Shibutani is? Why should it matter WHO broke the story? The story is true. You can watch it for yourself.

Some of y'all are starting to sound like the olden days when it was better not to know that a woman was battered at home. That was "family business." If we didn't know there was a problem, then we could pretend there wasn't one.

And worse WAY WORSE is the "we can't know the context" angle, like ANY context would excuse it. Again, it harkens back to the old days. "Maybe she deserved it. She should have known better. She knows how he is." It's just gross. Stop that.

Some appear not as upset about Alex's behavior as you are that his behavior became public and you have to face it head on. For those who are still clinging to the cute-and-loveable image that has been carefully crafted around this brother/sister team, you need to come to grips that perceptions about him are forever changed. And Dave Lease is not responsible for that. Alex Shibutani is responsible for that.

If I could "like" this post X 100, I would do it.

My thoughts on this dispicable situation:

It is in our nature as humans to decry abuse on a theoretical level. It is also in our nature as humans, in our subconscious efforts to feel SAFE, to believe that we can "spot the bad person a mile away." So what happens when evidence arises that a perceived "good/safe person" shows themselves to be "not so good/safe?" It is in our nature to "blame the victim" or "blame the messenger" in order to protect our own percieved sense of safety. We all want to believe we are good judges of character (important for our sense of safety). Rather than admit to ourselves we were wrong, we seek an alternative explanation. This happens in a largely subconscious way. Con artists, scammers, rapists, and abusers of all manner and form take advantage of this aspect of human nature every moment of every day.

I try very hard to REMEMBER this aspect of my own very human nature when assessing evidence like this. Do I want to believe Alex Shibutani is a mysogynistic POS who speaks in abhorent ways to his sister? No, I do not. But what does the evidence tell me? I am once again humbled to have to recognize that yet again, I do NOT have the necessary radar to spot an abuser from a zillion miles away (or even up close). That is an uncomfortable truth about my own human nature for me (and for each of us) to grapple with.

And I think that is an uncomfortable truth that may still be riding well below the conscious surface for many skating fans, leading to a debate even happening about whether Alex is a POS or not. And in case it's not clear, in my opinion he is a POS based on the evidence.

 

[theblade]

I have not commented on this thread yet because the subject of bullying in sports is so personally, in the parlance of our time, triggering for our family.

Full disclosure: I have a young family member who trained at a high level as an ice dancer at a top school up until fairly recently. They had success but continuing became impossible for a few different reasons, and an unusually hostile work environment was one of them. Happily, their schooling was also going equally well and they are thriving.

Believe me, they were raised to not shrug in the face of bullying behavior. The sheer inequality of experience between sexes in this sport has been, quite frankly, appalling to experience. And recently, it's been getting worse (teen marriages, expectations of full partner financing, deeply unequal training environments...).

There are many skaters who behave with decency. But we have also been faced with a few others in the sport whose behavior should be studied by professionals in the psychiatric field.

My family member enjoyed the challenge of competing with passion and power. Did not have to be an abusive individual to channel that competitive energy. They turned skating with authority and confidence on and off, like a professional athlete. The whole " I'm a Method Actor" excuse is just that. It allows excesses in the sport to continue to be perpetuated.

 

[Lamente Ariane]

If I could "like" this post X 100, I would do it.

My thoughts on this dispicable situation:

It is in our nature as humans to decry abuse on a theoretical level. It is also in our nature as humans, in our subconscious efforts to feel SAFE, to believe that we can "spot the bad person a mile away." So what happens when evidence arises that a perceived "good/safe person" shows themselves to be "not so good/safe?" It is in our nature to "blame the victim" or "blame the messenger" in order to protect our own percieved sense of safety. We all want to believe we are good judges of character (important for our sense of safety). Rather than admit to ourselves we were wrong, we seek an alternative explanation. This happens in a largely subconscious way. Con artists, scammers, rapists, and abusers of all manner and form take advantage of this aspect of human nature every moment of every day.

I try very hard to REMEMBER this aspect of my own very human nature when assessing evidence like this. Do I want to believe Alex Shibutani is a mysogynistic POS who speaks in abhorent ways to his sister? No, I do not. But what does the evidence tell me? I am once again humbled to have to recognize that yet again, I do NOT have the necessary radar to spot an abuser from a zillion miles away (or even up close). That is an uncomfortable truth about my own human nature for me (and for each of us) to grapple with.

And I think that is an uncomfortable truth that may still be riding well below the conscious surface for many skating fans, leading to a debate even happening about whether Alex is a POS or not. And in case it's not clear, in my opinion he is a POS based on the evidence.

I think you've put your finger on the crux of a lot (not all, obviously, but a lot) of the motivations behind defenses of Alex. People want to believe the best of someone they've admired, especially when they don't have to interact with the person themselves. It's hard and uncomfortable to confront the possibility that you've cheered and supported someone who wasn't who they presented themselves as, and a lot of people will simply shut down rather than have that internal debate or admit they've changed their mind in a public space. I've seen this happen with famous actors, musicians etc as well (don't want to go off topic by naming a few, but let's just say there's some movies I loved I can no longer watch because the sight of the lead actors' faces turns my stomach now) and it's going to be happening more and more as there's simply more cameras around and more means of finding out information about stuff that would've once been buried after paying a few tabloids off.

I am surprised that they addressed the video at all, let alone after some time had passed. That says to me that it may have been seen by some higher ups, either in skating or among their sponsors. If the true purpose of this comeback was to relaunch the ShibSibs brand, then that video may have been even more catastrophic to their goals than their scores at NHK Trophy.

 

[TontoK]

If I could "like" this post X 100, I would do it.

My thoughts on this dispicable situation:

It is in our nature as humans to decry abuse on a theoretical level. It is also in our nature as humans, in our subconscious efforts to feel SAFE, to believe that we can "spot the bad person a mile away." So what happens when evidence arises that a perceived "good/safe person" shows themselves to be "not so good/safe?" It is in our nature to "blame the victim" or "blame the messenger" in order to protect our own percieved sense of safety. We all want to believe we are good judges of character (important for our sense of safety). Rather than admit to ourselves we were wrong, we seek an alternative explanation. This happens in a largely subconscious way. Con artists, scammers, rapists, and abusers of all manner and form take advantage of this aspect of human nature every moment of every day.

I try very hard to REMEMBER this aspect of my own very human nature when assessing evidence like this. Do I want to believe Alex Shibutani is a mysogynistic POS who speaks in abhorent ways to his sister? No, I do not. But what does the evidence tell me? I am once again humbled to have to recognize that yet again, I do NOT have the necessary radar to spot an abuser from a zillion miles away (or even up close). That is an uncomfortable truth about my own human nature for me (and for each of us) to grapple with.

And I think that is an uncomfortable truth that may still be riding well below the conscious surface for many skating fans, leading to a debate even happening about whether Alex is a POS or not. And in case it's not clear, in my opinion he is a POS based on the evidence.

This is a thought-provoking post.

There are aspects discussed here that I had not considered fully, and I want to reflect on those for reasons that have nothing to do with Alex Shibutani.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Has anyone said that this incident has made Alex' skating worse than it was before?

The topic is people disrespecting the Shibutani's skating because of private behavior and claiming it's "dishonorable" to support them. It's wrong to cancel someone's life work because of separate thing you don't like about them. People who completely flip their opinions on a person/subject based upon those things have a massive problem with objectively, and are only making the world a worse place by viewing everything through a lens of "anyone who strays a single time from what I deem socially acceptable deserves to be thrown in the trash."

Very different context.
Meagan has been vocal about judging, doping etc Yes. However, she did so on her own and not while she was hired by let's say, CBC as a commentator. She's been extremely professional as a commentator. There is a difference when you are employed by a network : you represent also your employer.

Why are you putting "being employed by a network" on a pedestal, worshipping corporate culture? There's no difference between saying something in a public online video that isn't owned by a corporation, as Maegan constantly did (which I applaud her for), and saying it in a video owned by a corporation. And what about athletes representing their country and their rinks?

If you think Meagan hasn't made the same kind of private comments as Simon while at an event, check your delusion. The only difference is her private comments haven't yet been caught on tape and broadcast when she wasn't aware.

 

[Mathman]

The topic is people disrespecting the Shibutani's skating because of private behavior...

That is the part that I am not seeing on this thread. Is anyone saying anything negative about anyone's skating?

 

[4everchan]

If you think Meagan hasn't made the same kind of private comments as Simon while at an event, check your delusion. The only difference is her private comments haven't yet been caught on tape and broadcast when she wasn't aware.

the reality here is that whatever Meagan has said or not said in private wasn't recorded. There is always a risk when you talk ill about anyone...
Some people get caught, others don't. Simon got caught.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

the reality here is that whatever Meagan has said or not said in private wasn't recorded. There is always a risk when you talk ill about anyone...
Some people get caught, others don't. Simon got caught.

OK, up to this point, I have held my tongue on both of the controversial incidents being dicussed in this thread (although, I can't understand why we are discussing the open microphone incident from a few seasons ago in a thread about a much more serious incident). But I have to come in now to correct something.

The reason Simon Reed and Nicky Slater were discussing Meagan Duhamel is that she had been complaining very strongly about the quality of their commentary on Twitter throughout that event. I can't remember what exactly she said (and I can't check because I am not on Twitter and, with the changes that have been made since then, us non-members can no longer see posts unless we have the direct link), but I remember thinking that it was unjustly harsh.

So, it was not something that Meagan said in private that they were responding to. It was something she said in public for the whole world to see. When you are being slagged off by somebody, it is only natural to respond in kind. But unlike Meagan, who knew she was doing it in public, Simon and Nicky thought they were doing it in private.

Because of this, for me, what Meagan did was worse than what Simon and Nicky did. And therefore, if Simon and Nicky were being sacked by the broadcaster they were working for, then Meagan should have been sacked by the broadcaster she was working for too.

All three of them were in the wrong. And all three of them should have been punished the same way.

That said, I don't think any of them should have been sacked. All three of them should have been given a severe reprimand and warned that if they stepped out of line again, then it would automatically be the sack. But, because of the way it had all blown up online, there would have been even more uproar if no heads had rolled straight away. So the ISU took action.

But, I totally agree with the point you are making, @4everchan. All three of them should have just kept their mouths shut. It is not nice to slag somebody else off.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[saine]

The reason Simon Reed and Nicky Slater were discussing Meagan Duhamel is that she had been complaining very strongly about the quality of their commentary on Twitter throughout that event. I can't remember what exactly she said (and I can't check because I am not on Twitter and, with the changes that have been made since then, us non-members can no longer see posts unless we have the direct link), but I remember thinking that it was unjustly harsh.

There's a story on it here - https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/...commentators-apology-meagan-duhamel-1.6396109

Reed and Slater apparently said that it was 'sad' that the Russians weren't there right after the invasion and couldn't tell jump rotations since they don't follow skating. If I'm listening to a commentator, I want them to know how many rotations there are in a jump.

Kirsten Moore-Towers also made complaints about how they were discussing women.

"Hello @ISU_Figure! The commentators on your feed noting that a female partner is 'taller and heavier' is just not at all necessary and super inappropriate. That was just one of many ridiculous statements made today," pairs skater Kirsten Moore-Towers tweeted

Jackie Wong reposted that complaint in agreement with her.

She's right, it is not appropriate to discuss women that way in a sport with body image issues like that. And Duhamel was not alone in making public her issues with the commentary. She happened to be the person to be singled out by them.

There were issues with what they were saying and she was among other skaters making it known what those issues were. You may not have had an issue with what they were saying, but more people than her found them to be inappropriate.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

There's a story on it here - https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/...commentators-apology-meagan-duhamel-1.6396109

Reed and Slater apparently said that it was 'sad' that the Russians weren't there right after the invasion and couldn't tell jump rotations since they don't follow skating. If I'm listening to a commentator, I want them to know how many rotations there are in a jump.

Kirsten Moore-Towers also made complaints about how they were discussing women.

Jackie Wong reposted that complaint in agreement with her.

She's right, it is not appropriate to discuss women that way in a sport with body image issues like that. And Duhamel was not alone in making public her issues with the commentary. She happened to be the person to be singled out by them.

There were issues with what they were saying and she was among other skaters making it known what those issues were. You may not have had an issue with what they were saying, but more people than her found them to be inappropriate.

Thank you for the extra information. It was so long ago that I had forgotten all the details.

You all know how I feel about politics having no place in sport. So, I won't go into all that again.

But I totally agree about expecting commentators to know what they are talking about. After all, they are there to explain what is happening and why to the viewers.

As for the comments about height and weight, I wonder how much of this down to cultural differences in different sports. Because in motorbike racing, hardly a meeting goes by when the commentators don't talk about the height and weight of riders. Because it does have a big influence on things. And it is not just the commentators talking about it - the competitors themselves do as well. The taller riders are always complaining about the shorter riders having an advantage due to being lighter and being able to tuck in behind the fairing, which the taller riders can't do. And the shorter riders are always complaining about having to carry ballast to make it fairer for the taller riders.

For us fans of motorbike racing, it is normal to hear discussions about height and weight. But, the difference is that in that sport, it is practically unheard of for competitors to develop eating disorders. (I can only think of one rider that it happened with, and that was in the days before they had minimum weights and ballast). In figure skating, that is not the case. It happens frequently.

I should add that for 30 odd years, Simon, Nicky and Chris worked for British Eurosport. And for most of that time, British Eurosport was also known as being the home of motorbike racing. In short, they were working in an environment where it was normal for commentators to talk about height and weight.

But, if they followed figure skating closer, then they would know that eating disorders were an issue, and to be more careful about how they approached the topic.

For goodness sake, we do not want another case like Julia Antipova.

Finally, just to make clear: I did have an issue with what Simon and Nicky said about Meagan. But I also had an issue with what Meagan was saying about them.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

OK, up to this point, I have held my tongue on both of the controversial incidents being dicussed in this thread (although, I can't understand why we are discussing the open microphone incident from a few seasons ago in a thread about a much more serious incident). But I have to come in now to correct something.

The reason Simon Reed and Nicky Slater were discussing Meagan Duhamel is that she had been complaining very strongly about the quality of their commentary on Twitter throughout that event. I can't remember what exactly she said (and I can't check because I am not on Twitter and, with the changes that have been made since then, us non-members can no longer see posts unless we have the direct link), but I remember thinking that it was unjustly harsh.

So, it was not something that Meagan said in private that they were responding to. It was something she said in public for the whole world to see. When you are being slagged off by somebody, it is only natural to respond in kind. But unlike Meagan, who knew she was doing it in public, Simon and Nicky thought they were doing it in private.

Because of this, for me, what Meagan did was worse than what Simon and Nicky did. And therefore, if Simon and Nicky were being sacked by the broadcaster they were working for, then Meagan should have been sacked by the broadcaster she was working for too.

All three of them were in the wrong. And all three of them should have been punished the same way.

That said, I don't think any of them should have been sacked. All three of them should have been given a severe reprimand and warned that if they stepped out of line again, then it would automatically be the sack. But, because of the way it had all blown up online, there would have been even more uproar if no heads had rolled straight away. So the ISU took action.

But, I totally agree with the point you are making, @4everchan. All three of them should have just kept their mouths shut. It is not nice to slag somebody else off.

CaroLiza_fan

@saine provided everything I wanted to provide but I will add one thing

if one complains about commentators on twitter, one does so on a personal basis. It can make them look bad or not, depending on public opinion... and in this case, many people were complaining. If one complains about a commentator on a hot mike while hired by a network or the ISU, then it makes the employer look bad, and thus, one can expect to be fired.

That was my main point all along.

This thread indeed drifted there because this video was also leaked so someone compared the Simon incident to that.. I didn't bring the hot mike here personally and I wouldn't compare the two, so I agree with you here. But again, there is a difference. Alex can be called a jerk for what he did to Maia. No question about that. If the US Olympic Committee feels he is misrepresenting them, they can act on it. I doubt they would, and as we saw this weekend, I doubt they will qualify anyway. So it is to Maia to deal with him. They issued a statement about it. To me, it's been dealt with.

 

[saine]

Finally, just to make clear: I did have an issue with what Simon and Nicky said about Meagan. But I also had an issue with what Meagan was saying about them.

Part of what I was doing with my post was bringing in that it wasn't only Meagan who made complaints about their commentary on Twitter by showing that Kirsten Moore-Towers and Jackie Wong were making complaints about it as well. She happens to be the one who was remembered for it since she was the one who was singled out for it by them.

I'll leave it here.

 

[gsk8]

 

[TallyT]

Finally, just to make clear: I did have an issue with what Simon and Nicky said about Meagan.

To be blunt, sounds like truth in (inadvertent) advertising to me.

Again we do not know these people. only what they choose (or in some cases accidentally) show to us. We should remember, the best of them are 'professional' performers and know what they need to show... and hide.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Part of what I was doing with my post was bringing in that it wasn't only Meagan who made complaints about their commentary on Twitter by showing that Kirsten Moore-Towers and Jackie Wong were making complaints about it as well. She happens to be the one who was remembered for it since she was the one who was singled out for it by them.

Good point.

I wonder if the reason why this became so focussed on Meagan is that she is also a broadcaster. (KMT is now as well, but I don't think she was then. And Jackie is not a traditional broadcaster). That these older commentators who had been covering the sport for decades didn't appreciate getting criticised by a fellow commentator, and in particular one that had not been in the game for long.

But, the point I was trying to make is that when you employ people to broadcast to the public, you expect them to behave professionally. Because they are representing you, and them not being professional can damage your reputation. You certainly do not expect them to get into a slanging match with other broadcasters. And that is what happened with both sides back then.

So, I stand by my conviction that all three of them should have been punished by their respective employers.

Until that incident, I had liked all three of them. Afterwards, I didn't like any of them.

To be blunt, sounds like truth in (inadvertent) advertising to me.

Again we do not know these people. only what they choose (or in some cases accidentally) show to us. We should remember, the best of them are 'professional' performers and know what they need to show... and hide.

Exactly.

Which brings us back to the Shibs. For the past couple of decades, we thought they were these wholesome brother and sister. I for one always really liked them. And I would never have imagined that they were actually like what we saw in that video.

To use your words, they put on a show for years, and we all were taken in by it. And we are only now seeing a glimpse of the real people.

It makes you wonder whether you can believe anything you see in this sport.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Skater Boy]

Does anyone think they will go to the olympics? These returns are a struggle for everyone it seems but Gullaume and Laurence. The Shib sibs, Sui and Han, Keegan are not finding it easy coming back.