Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry? | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 43.2%
  • No

    Votes: 96 56.8%

  • Total voters
    169
Skating skills is not artistry. It's a technical base that should be used in order to create good flow, which can help to build artistry. Plushenko and Joubert did have very good skating skills, they just didn't always make use of it (and Plushenko was almost always a captivating performer regardless). Goebel lacked great skating skills, but his American in Paris was very charming and showcased some difficult transitions. Patrick never did spread eagle or hydroblade into 3A.

More like, the vast majority of the time Plushenko didn't make use of it because he never had any competitors other than Yagudin to technically push him so he didn't need to develop the PCS side. The only time he only really showed his all around skater potential was at 2012 Europeans when he was "forced" to do levels and add transitions and whatnot. But come Sochi his program choreo and skating skills regressed again, because it was home ice and he was gonna get given PCS all the same, so why expend the effort to show your best SS/CO.

Goebel was definitely shortchanged at SLC. Should have definitely gotten the silver - 3 quads, great transitions, and the top 2 had errors.
 
Hanyu set world record after world record after word record under the -5/+5 version, while continuing to produce performances of widely acclaimed quality and impact.

It is really quite a stretch to imagine that the scoring system was somehow rigged against him. If that was anyone's intent, the 'riggers" fell flat on their faces and Yuzuru got the last laugh.

This "system is rigged" narrative is often used to set up a loss-win scenario.... in case of a loss, well, the system was rigged against you and you weren't supposed to win and let's trivialize/undermine the victory of those who beat you. But... in case of a victory, well, gosh, you overcame a system that was rigged against you, your competitors suck for not even being able to defeat you even when the system's rigged against you, and you're a king/GOAT/god/etc. for not letting said rigged system take you down.

It's an age-old, tired narrative leveraged by everyone from certain politicians to certain rabid skating fans alike.
 
Is it that uneasy to count uncalled errors, and to observe that similar Components aren't scored the same depending on skaters, that one has to recur to that poor rhetoric process to call those who denounce huge scoring discrepancies, conspiracy theorists or irrational fans who just wished their favourite to win?
 
TBH, it was not the question you have asked, not the one I was answering to.
You have asked how should ISU know what the public wants to see when there are so many different sectors of the public etc.?
So this is what I was answering to. Surely, not from polls on GS :nod: These may be fun but are not representative of anything, not even of this forum, with 120 people taking part in a poll where the forum has thousands of members. And of course ISU should be interested in reaching a bigger part of the public than the most active posters on one of many fan forums.

I have to admit I am getting sort of bored with this question being asked all over again while the general public at large made their answer clear and loud. They made it clear what they want to see in big numbers, and not in polls but with their credit cards, attendance and viewership. These are the real life indicators, and TBH I cannot stop being puzzled why they are not being taken into account, and the question is just being asked all over again. And it makes me doubt the sincerity with which the question is being asked, not by you, nothing personal, but by ISU itself. As they say, the answer is written on the wall, why pretend it is not there and not known? Do they really want to know?

Now, the sport had a super superstar, a genius blessed also with an amazing selling power. That's a rare case, usually considered a blessing. In any healthy and well-managed organization, this phenomenon would have been studied and analyzed by people way more knowledgeable than me, to define the factors that make for this success. Of course, you cannot multiply a genius, but you can learn from him. And if you don't, you have only yourself to blame. The result should have been a development strategy and an exit strategy. The latter - to have a plan how to keep in the sport all those fans who came for the star, those he has already brought. In any well managed organization, these things are discussed and planned. The former - how to create an environment that would stimulate the development of similar talent - by shaping the scoring system, the program requirements etc, to stimulate and reward the development of necessary skills and programs.

What has ISU done? It had alienated its biggest star and his fandom, it made them feel unneeded and unwelcome, shutting off any possibility of his post-competitive inclusion in the competitive sport's events, it made a total turn starting to reward completely different set of skills, opposite, one might say, to the one which was bringing money and viewership, and in a couple of years made it a completely different sport, much less attractive for the general public, it seems. Now, why, is the real question. For it is just so illogical, unreasonable, and plainly stupid, that it is so hard to believe it was done for no reason at all.

LOL, with retirement comes entitlement, evidently. All that you're griping about -- that is not on the ISU. That is on those particular fans who, as you very rightly hit the nail on the head, came to watch the... ahem, their star — in many cases ONLY for Hanyu, and only satisfied/accepting of the results if they saw him win. Unless you were able to literally clone Hanyu his loyalists will never support any other skater. And even then, they'd get mad and campaign against his clone, lol. You might care about the next gen, but most of them don't give a flying... camel about emerging talent -- they just want him to have the attention, and all the glory, even in retirement.

There are newer stars and newer skaters, even better skaters in some respects. But you will never catch a Hanyu loyalist respecting, let alone acknowledging, new talent. Some are salty about Malinin landing the quad axel. Some mock Shaidorov's artistry to trivialize the combos he does which Hanyu (and most of the men's field) could never even dream of doing. Japan has star talent in Kagiyama and Sato — but how many Hanyu fans are showing up to support them? Lombardia had 3 of the top 4 skaters in Malinin/Fa/Kagiyama - but I wonder how many Hanyu fans were there to watch them... unless Hanyu skated in the gala (and you know they'd buy full passes and only show up to said gala). These are not skating fans — they are skater (singular) fans. It's of course, one's prerogative. But don't blame the ISU for "alienating" a fanbase who was — and still is — dedicated to just one skater... one that has clearly moved on, even if their fans haven't.

It's also pretty rich questioning why the ISU doesn't care about him more... these fans wanted the ISU to burn and fail post-Hanyu (sorry to say, it hasn't)... And now that the ISU has shrugged their shoulders and, quite shockingly, focusing on their PRESENT/active skaters, they wonder why the ISU doesn't welcome him — and them — back with open arms? Ever thought that the ISU doesn't not want viewership to be contingent on one person, ever thought that other skaters deserve to be stars and have their moments in the spotlight? Should Hanyu's face be on the masthead of every World Championships above the actual competitors because he drives in dollars? Is it right for people to treat a legendary skater as some mere commodity/golden goose that the ISU is irrationally missing out on? Come on.

Illogical, unreasonable, and plainly stupid, indeed.
 
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Is it that uneasy to count uncalled errors, and to observe that similar Components aren't scored the same depending on skaters, that one has to recur to that poor rhetoric process to call those who denounce huge scoring discrepancies, conspiracy theorists or irrational fans who just wished their favourite to win?

People are entitled to their opinion — but if you're approaching/analyzing with extreme bias instead of objective analysis... with the premise that your fave(s) is immune to criticism while facing a system rigged against them (especially when they still win/medal), and the added premise that their rivals are undeserving of scoring that could challenge let alone defeat your fave... then yeah, I do chalk that up to irrational fandom.

Every skater has faced scoring issues in their favour and against them. The top skaters, almost invariably, have benefited more than those beneath them. This is why not limiting quads is important because keeping artistry to something subjective and increasing its weight only magnifies this subjective side of the sport which will only lead to, as you said, huge scoring discrepancies. It gives skaters who aren't established or de facto "stars of the sport" a chance to compete fairly so their clean skate has a shot against a skater who has tons of serious errors but is held above them thanks to PCS.
 
The skaters who can't do a triple without cheating are free to attempt a double.
Not in the senior short program, where triples (or triple attempts) are required.

And PLEASE say "underrotating" rather than "cheating."

Otherwise we can argue that most men even the best skaters will struggle to achieve 4 full rotations in the air with a clean landing, so we just have to accept it give them GOE they don't deserve.
I never said anyone should be given GOE that they don't deserve.

What I'm saying is that we might want to consider whether we do in fact want the size of the base values and GOEs available based on jump rotation to be so large that they outweigh points that can be earned elsewhere -- e.g., non-jump elements, PCS, and also positive qualities (such as height and distance, effortlessness, preceding steps, or enhancing the music) of not-quite-rotated jumps.

Fans have often been dismayed when what looks like a clean and also artistically engaging program ends up losing to a blander performance, because of rotation calls.

Judges might also be dismayed if they honestly believe the former skater is enough better overall they expect them to win, while reducing their GOEs as required for any underrotated jumps, but not having enough room in the other scores to favor the skater they thought was better overall.

(On the other hand, of course, skaters who CAN rotate difficult jumps, and their fans, may want those jumps to be valued highly enough to outweigh everything that other skaters do better than them. Hence the changes to quad base values and GOE ranges over the past 15 years.)
 
LOL you can't compare scoring from 2017 Worlds to 2025 Worlds. The PCS categories themselves are different.

It doesn't matter the PCS categories changed - we already know those changes happened. Had you been following the entire conversation instead of poking your head in just to deliver snark, you'd know that the point of the conversation was: he who has the most quads does not necessarily win - whether it's 2017 or 2025. Try looking at the forest and not just one tree in it.
 
Is it that uneasy to count uncalled errors, and to observe that similar Components aren't scored the same depending on skaters...
To me, yes, is is that difficult to observe and count uncalled errors and to judge whether one skater's performance is objectively better, worse, or about the same as another's in terms of the criteria for program components. I applaud and envy fans, technical specialists, and judges alike who can do so. :nod:
 
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LOL, with retirement comes entitlement, evidently. All that you're griping about -- that is not on the ISU. That is on those particular fans who, as you very rightly hit the nail on the head, came to watch the... ahem, their star — in many cases ONLY for Hanyu, and only satisfied/accepting of the results if they saw him win. Unless you were able to literally clone Hanyu his loyalists will never support any other skater. And even then, they'd get mad and campaign against his clone, lol. You might care about the next gen, but most of them don't give a flying... camel about emerging talent -- they just want him to have the attention, and all the glory, even in retirement.

There are newer stars and newer skaters, even better skaters in some respects. But you will never catch a Hanyu loyalist respecting, let alone acknowledging, new talent. Some are salty about Malinin landing the quad axel. Some mock Shaidorov's artistry to trivialize the combos he does which Hanyu (and most of the men's field) could never even dream of doing. Japan has star talent in Kagiyama and Sato — but how many Hanyu fans are showing up to support them? Lombardia had 3 of the top 4 skaters in Malinin/Fa/Kagiyama - but I wonder how many Hanyu fans were there to watch them... unless Hanyu skated in the gala (and you know they'd buy full passes and only show up to said gala). These are not skating fans — they are skater (singular) fans. It's of course, one's prerogative. But don't blame the ISU for "alienating" a fanbase who was — and still is — dedicated to just one skater... one that has clearly moved on, even if their fans haven't.

It's also pretty rich questioning why the ISU doesn't care about him more... these fans wanted the ISU to burn and fail post-Hanyu (sorry to say, it hasn't)... And now that the ISU has shrugged their shoulders and, quite shockingly, focusing on their PRESENT/active skaters, they wonder why the ISU doesn't welcome him — and them — back with open arms? Ever thought that the ISU doesn't not want viewership to be contingent on one person, ever thought that other skaters deserve to be stars and have their moments in the spotlight? Should Hanyu's face be on the masthead of every World Championships above the actual competitors because he drives in dollars? Is it right for people to treat a legendary skater as some mere commodity/golden goose that the ISU is irrationally missing out on? Come on.

Illogical, unreasonable, and plainly stupid, indeed.
Yes, this is exactly this kind of feudal thinking and language I was referring to. A perfect example how you lose fans from the sport. They should, it is on them....

No, they are not obliged to anything. They watch, follow, root for and support whoever they want, and do not watch, follow, root for or support whoever they do not want to, for whatever reason they think fit. It is on ISU to reach out, seek support and gain interest from the viewers, not the other way round.

I do not think Yuzuru would like to be involved with ISU any more in any way. If anyone understood me this way, it was just a misunderstanding, I never meant it like this. This is on ISU, too. They effectively lost him. Lost its greatest star and the 2xOGM in some stupid games and power struggles, and for what? This is what I feel really sorry about, and what I hold them responsible for. And that’s all I meant.
And he's not the first or the only one. It was just the same with Yuna, wasn't it? They lost her, too.
They lost Dick Button, too, didn't they?

It's just sad, especially when you see how some other sports make an effort and happily accommodate different fandoms which do not necessarily love themselves either, celebrate their former greatest stars and do not see it as an insult to their self-pride, nor as a threat to the younger generations who are actually thrilled to even get a chance to meet them. Just like younger skaters have always been thrilled to see or meet Yuzuru when given a chance. Which they are now mostly robbed of.

I never mentioned money but as it was brought up – yes, Yuzuru was providing subsistence to this sport for years, and so did his fans, like it or not. Would be nice to find it in yourself to say "thank you", whatever anyone thinks of it. Because in the end of the day, whatever happened, it is on the ISU. They had no obligation to like anyone, no obligation to like ISU, nor to stay. They probably could have been won over but ISU never even tried. Even if they left disliking ISU, it does not take away one cent from what they had given to this sport over the years, and does not release ISU from being grateful for each one of these cents they were spending so happily. Especially when these cents were so many and have proven not to be so easily replaced.

And they are hundreds of thousands of people, probably millions. Anyone really thinks they can tell anything about them apart from the fact that they share common admiration for Yuzuru Hanyu?

And BTW, me and other Yuzuru fans here are regular supporters of both Shaidorov's and Shun Sato's FFs here on GS. If you were supporting them yourself, you would know. :coffee:
 
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And BTW, me and other Yuzuru fans here are regular supporters of both Shaidorov's and Shun Sato's FFs here on GS. If you were supporting them yourself, you would know. :coffee:
I am developing into a massive and unblushingly biased fan (in all of their favours, which makes for fun trying to work out who I want to win) of a good third of the up and coming juniors, as well.
 
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Not in the senior short program, where triples (or triple attempts) are required.

And PLEASE say "underrotating" rather than "cheating."
They are cheating on their jumps if they are underrotating them.

A "cheated jump" in figure skating is a jump that does not complete the required number of rotations, typically because part of the rotation is done on the ice before takeoff or after landing

If they can't jump a triple, then some how they've slipped through being given scores way higher than they have ever deserved for cheated jumps. They should never have got the minimums to qualify in the first place. It's taking places away from more deserving skaters who don't get this kind treatment from officials.

I never said anyone should be given GOE that they don't deserve.

What I'm saying is that we might want to consider whether we do in fact want the size of the base values and GOEs available based on jump rotation to be so large that they outweigh points that can be earned elsewhere -- e.g., non-jump elements, PCS, and also positive qualities (such as height and distance, effortlessness, preceding steps, or enhancing the music) of not-quite-rotated jumps.

Fans have often been dismayed when what looks like a clean and also artistically engaging program ends up losing to a blander performance, because of rotation calls.

Judges might also be dismayed if they honestly believe the former skater is enough better overall they expect them to win, while reducing their GOEs as required for any underrotated jumps, but not having enough room in the other scores to favor the skater they thought was better overall.

(On the other hand, of course, skaters who CAN rotate difficult jumps, and their fans, may want those jumps to be valued highly enough to outweigh everything that other skaters do better than them. Hence the changes to quad base values and GOE ranges over the past 15 years.)
This is a sport where male skater who has no quads, his triple axel is usually underrotated, but for various reasons I won't get into can still finish top 5 at World's. Simply, this is not fair. The tech panel is often reluctant to punish this skater for very obvious cheated jumps as well. There is obviously too much ability of the tech panel and judges to use their discretion in evaluating the skaters if they can come up with this outcome.

With the other male skater I alluded to before it goes to far to the other extreme in that because they can effortlessly jump 6 quads and do a somersault for good measure at the end of the program (incredible stamina!), they receive perfect 10's for PCS as if they are Hanyu (no less absurd when a male skater received perfect 10's in Beijing).
 
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They [the ISU] effectively lost him [Hanyu] Lost its greatest star and the 2xOGM in some stupid games and power struggles, and for what? This is what I feel really sorry about, and what I hold them responsible for. And that’s all I meant.
And he's not the first or the only one. It was just the same with Yuna, wasn't it? They lost her, too.
They lost Dick Button, too, didn't they?
They "lost" Sonja Henie. They lost Michelle Kwan. Eventually every athlete, however talented and popular, however rich and famous, moves on.

Why? Someone (it was U.S. sports announcer Howard Cosell) once tried to troll the all-time great boxing champion Muhammad Ali, near the end if Ali's career, with, "You're not the man you were fifteen years ago!"

Ali's answer? "Fifteen tears ago?! I'm going to ask your wife if you're the man you were two years ago." :laugh:

Yuzuru Hanyu is happy with the arc of his career (I hope). Yuna Kim is comfortable with her accomplishments. (I hope). The ISU is looking forward to developing the next generation of stars. To me, it seems like it's just the fans who are in high dudgeon.
 
To answer the question: yes, and to 3 per long program.
And who was under Jin in PCS? Nathan. That makes Nathan your new whipping boy, I guess. By the way, Jin got 80 PCS at 4CC 2016 and 86 at 2017 Worlds.
:confused2: Chen made mistakes, multiple at that, at worlds 2017. How is it beyond expectation that he'd be scored lower?

Like I don't agree Jin deserved 86 there (I would have had 78-80), but this is a 'what' to me.
And he's not the first or the only one. It was just the same with Yuna, wasn't it? They lost her, too.
❓ She still does classes with the IOC, and advises Korean skaters. She was present in the stands at PyeongChang. She awarded medals at 4CC 2020.

If you want to get specific that IOC and ISU are different... well all those skaters would register with the ISU and compete under its banner anyway?
 
LOL, with retirement comes entitlement, evidently. All that you're griping about -- that is not on the ISU. That is on those particular fans who, as you very rightly hit the nail on the head, came to watch the... ahem, their star — in many cases ONLY for Hanyu, and only satisfied/accepting of the results if they saw him win. Unless you were able to literally clone Hanyu his loyalists will never support any other skater. And even then, they'd get mad and campaign against his clone, lol. You might care about the next gen, but most of them don't give a flying... camel about emerging talent -- they just want him to have the attention, and all the glory, even in retirement.

There are newer stars and newer skaters, even better skaters in some respects. But you will never catch a Hanyu loyalist respecting, let alone acknowledging, new talent. Some are salty about Malinin landing the quad axel. Some mock Shaidorov's artistry to trivialize the combos he does which Hanyu (and most of the men's field) could never even dream of doing. Japan has star talent in Kagiyama and Sato — but how many Hanyu fans are showing up to support them? Lombardia had 3 of the top 4 skaters in Malinin/Fa/Kagiyama - but I wonder how many Hanyu fans were there to watch them... unless Hanyu skated in the gala (and you know they'd buy full passes and only show up to said gala). These are not skating fans — they are skater (singular) fans. It's of course, one's prerogative. But don't blame the ISU for "alienating" a fanbase who was — and still is — dedicated to just one skater... one that has clearly moved on, even if their fans haven't.

It's also pretty rich questioning why the ISU doesn't care about him more... these fans wanted the ISU to burn and fail post-Hanyu (sorry to say, it hasn't)... And now that the ISU has shrugged their shoulders and, quite shockingly, focusing on their PRESENT/active skaters, they wonder why the ISU doesn't welcome him — and them — back with open arms? Ever thought that the ISU doesn't not want viewership to be contingent on one person, ever thought that other skaters deserve to be stars and have their moments in the spotlight? Should Hanyu's face be on the masthead of every World Championships above the actual competitors because he drives in dollars? Is it right for people to treat a legendary skater as some mere commodity/golden goose that the ISU is irrationally missing out on? Come on.

Illogical, unreasonable, and plainly stupid, indeed.
I'm glad that in the end, you had such a moment of lucidity. You may as well have erased the false statements that preceded, unless you want them to be debunked one by one?
 
People are entitled to their opinion — but if you're approaching/analyzing with extreme bias instead of objective analysis... with the premise that your fave(s) is immune to criticism while facing a system rigged against them (especially when they still win/medal), and the added premise that their rivals are undeserving of scoring that could challenge let alone defeat your fave... then yeah, I do chalk that up to irrational fandom.

Every skater has faced scoring issues in their favour and against them. The top skaters, almost invariably, have benefited more than those beneath them. This is why not limiting quads is important because keeping artistry to something subjective and increasing its weight only magnifies this subjective side of the sport which will only lead to, as you said, huge scoring discrepancies. It gives skaters who aren't established or de facto "stars of the sport" a chance to compete fairly so their clean skate has a shot against a skater who has tons of serious errors but is held above them thanks to PCS.
If, yes. If ifs and ands were pots and pans, there's be no work for tinkers' hands...

As to your second paragraph, I would be very happy if you would provide me with a scoring issue faced by, say, Nathan Chen, Ilia Malinin, Anna Shcherbakova, Kamila Valieva (in her international career) that would be against them? (In fact, for Anna Shcherbakova, I remember a call her coach disapproved and it was ditched, after the end of the competition!) I see heaps of scoring issues benefitting them, on the other hand. But you're so affirmative that you must have examples in mind? And I'm sorry that you're still into the Components = Artistry thing. Vibes, as they say. I know that it's a common error but maybe one more to be debunked? Very little in the Components is judging Artistry. The rest is measurable criteria. A judge can weight criteria differently inside each Component, but the same grid must apply to all (and be sensible); I hope that your Mathematical notions allow you to understand that this cannot lead a judge to give a higher score to a less good criteria?
@ Luxvult and @4everchan, of course you may answer too, you too must have examples in mind? 4everchan, your favourite skater wasn't as egregiously overscored than the precited skaters, so I wouldn't be as dubious on the existence of any unfavourable scoring error on one of his skates, still I wouldn't mind it either if you told us, for my personal Figure Skating lore...
 
Underrotating is better use of language because the word "cheating" carries the implication of moral turpitude.

A skater who comes iup short of rotation is not a vile scoundrel, he just needs to work a little harder on his technique. :nod:
I think that in ISU videos and perhaps documents, a cheated jump is a jump with an excessive prerotation.
I believe it's logical, because a skater (or their coach) voluntarily prerotates the jump, while the position of landing depends less on the skater's will than on multiple factors. One could argue that a skater who would know that they would never more rotate such jump, ought to get it away from their programs, and sometimes I have the feeling that this is what's happening with this skater, but I wouldn't judge that they know it, maybe there are factors I don't know, maybe they're in denial and it's a coping mechanism that's normal in Sports, and so on. This is, I believe, why underrotations aren't called cheating. Conversely, I call it cheating when a skater who systematically underrotates a jump, is never called in spite of it. Never. But the cheating isn't on the Skater, so it isn't a cheated jump...
 
They are cheating on their jumps if they are underrotating them.
It is part of the history of the sport to refer to jumps as being "cheated" or even to refer to skaters "cheating their jumps" meaning underrotating. I.e., in that context the word "cheating" is synonymous with "underrotating."

That terminology has not historically been used to refer to skaters "cheating ON their jumps," which implies that the skaters are cheaters who are breaking rules and trying to get away with something.


Let's talk about another kind of technical error.

Bracket and counter turns involve counterrotation from the entry edge into the turn, and rockers involve counterrotation on the exit edge.

In brackets, the skater stays on the same circle, changing from inside to outside edge or outside to inside at the same time as changing from forward to backward or backward to forward. There should only be two edges involved, and the exit edge should be opposite to the entry edge in both forward/backward and inside/outside.

For counters and rockers, the skater changes to a new circle at the point of the turn. They change from forward to backward or vice versa but do not change which edge of the blade they're on. The result is that the direction of travel changes from clockwise to counterclockwise or vice versa.

Including a variety of these difficult turns is necessary for earning higher levels in step sequences (it's impossible to earn level 4 without executing one or two of each successfully); and judges will also reward if they see them in transitional content.

It is very common to lose the counterrotation on the entrance to a bracket or especially counter, make a small to medium change of edge, and then turn a three turn (the easiest one-foot turn) to end up on the intended exit edge.

For rockers, it's pretty common to turn a three turn to end up on the wrong edge and then quickly change edge to the correct exit edge.

In school figures, it was very strictly enforced that skaters stayed on the correct edges when making the turns -- judges would get down on the ice to look for flats or edge changes in the tracings.

In free skating, the judges are not on the ice, the ice is usually not clean enough to see the tracings, and the judges or tech panel panel might be 50 meters away from where some of the turns are executed. So there is a little more leeway.

Also, the skaters are often traveling at higher speed, which makes it harder to maintain precise edges.

But if the tech panel sees these errors they won't give credit for the turn and call a lower level than the skater was hoping for. If a judge notices such errors, especially several of them in the same program, that would affect their GOE for the step sequence and/or the Skating Skills component.

Here's Gary Beacom lamenting that he doesn't see many true brackets in freestyle programs and giving tips on how to do them correctly. At 3:30 he gives an exaggerated example of changing edge before the turn to make a three turn instead of a bracket.

In this video about how to do counters here he warns about making counter turns into three turns.

Here is a different coach talking about how she teaches counters, with examples of skaters rocking onto the wrong edge before making the turns.

Skaters might sometimes refer to these errors as "cheating" the turns or even, as an analogy, "flutzing" the counter entry, although that's less common terminology than with jumps.

How do you feel about the moral quality of skaters who make these kinds of turn errors on a regular basis?

If you think skaters who underrotate their jumps (or change edge on lutz/flip takeoffs) are cheating, what do you think about skaters who get away with changing edge on their required turns?

Are skaters who can't do pure turns (but who "slip through" to elite levels by virtue of being able to rotate more in the air) less worthy than those who are masters of on edge and turn quality?

Do fans not care because commentators never show close-up replays and explain these turns in detail? What if that kind of information was provided to help clarify why some step sequences (and other elements in ice dance) don't receive the levels they're aiming at?
 
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It is part of the history of the sport to refer to jumps as being "cheated" or even to refer to skaters "cheating their jumps" meaning underrotating. I.e., in that context the word "cheating" is synonymous with "underrotating."

That terminology has not historically been used to refer to skaters "cheating ON their jumps," which implies that the skaters are cheaters who are breaking rules and trying to get away with something.


Let's talk about another kind of technical error.

Bracket and counter turns involve counterrotation from the entry edge into the turn, and rockers involve counterrotation on the exit edge.

In brackets, the skater stays on the same circle, changing from inside to outside edge or outside to inside at the same time as changing from forward to backward or backward to forward. There should only be two edges involved, and the exit edge should be opposite to the entry edge in both forward/backward and inside/outside.

For counters and rockers, the skater changes to a new circle at the point of the turn. They change from forward to backward or vice versa but do not change which edge of the blade they're on. The result is that the direction of travel changes from clockwise to counterclockwise or vice versa.

Including a variety of these difficult turns is necessary for earning higher levels in step sequences (it's impossible to earn level 4 without executing one or two of each successfully); and judges will also reward if they see them in transitional content.

It is very common to lose the counterrotation on the entrance to a bracket or especially counter, make a small to medium change of edge, and then turn a three turn (the easiest one-foot turn) to end up on the intended exit edge.

For rockers, it's pretty common to turn a three turn to end up on the wrong edge and then quickly change edge to the correct exit edge.

In school figures, it was very strictly enforced that skaters stayed on the correct edges when making the turns -- judges would get down on the ice to look for flats or edge changes in the tracings.

In free skating, the judges are not on the ice, the ice is usually not clean enough to see the tracings, and the judges or tech panel panel might be 50 meters away from where some of the turns are executed. So there is a little more leeway.

Also, the skaters are often traveling at higher speed, which makes it harder to maintain precise edges.

But if the tech panel sees these errors they won't give credit for the turn and call a lower level than the skater was hoping for. If a judge notices such errors, especially several of them in the same program, that would affect their GOE for the step sequence and/or the Skating Skills component.

Here's Gary Beacom lamenting that he doesn't see many true brackets in freestyle programs and giving tips on how to do them correctly. At 3:30 he gives an exaggerated example of changing edge before the turn to make a three turn instead of a bracket.

In this video about how to do counters here he warns about making counter turns into three turns.

Here is a different coach talking about how she teaches counters, with examples of skaters rocking onto the wrong edge before making the turns.

Skaters might sometimes refer to these errors as "cheating" the turns or even, as an analogy, "flutzing" the counter entry, although that's less common terminology than with jumps.

How do you feel about the moral quality of skaters who make these kinds of turn errors on a regular basis?

If you think skaters who underrotate their jumps (or change edge on lutz/flip takeoffs) are cheating, what do you think about skaters who get away with changing edge on their required turns?

Are skaters who can't do pure turns (but who "slip through" to elite levels by virtue of being able to rotate more in the air) less worthy than those who are masters of on edge and turn quality?

Do fans not care because commentators never show close-up replays and explain these turns in detail? What if that kind of information was provided to help clarify why some step sequences (and other elements in ice dance) don't receive the levels they're aiming at?
I'm learning steps, your descriptions make me salivate! :laugh4: And now I'm just also regretting that we're not given slow motion focusing on skates, of Step Sequences and transitions clusters for those who have, but the time between the bows and the scores announcements is limited...
 
I said no.
The good jumps have the running edge on landing. No one has the running edge on a quad that I remember. To me they should get that before moving on . Definitely not fet thr ,+5 or +3 . That goes for any jump
That contributes to artistic value that is seen . That tells the public the skaters confidence in doing and landing the jump and how good the skaters is
That what set Jason. And his triples apart from quad.
I believe skating skills.
They people are so down on the u.s skater but excel at.
That is what kaori, mone, alysa, isabelle, Adam, ilia, shun, Yuma, Jason does do well on certain jumps.

Theu show it is easy. Come join me.
 
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