Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry? | Page 15 | Golden Skate

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 43.2%
  • No

    Votes: 96 56.8%

  • Total voters
    169
Do fans not care because commentators never show close-up replays and explain these turns in detail? What if that kind of information was provided to help clarify why some step sequences (and other elements in ice dance) don't receive the levels they're aiming at?
Fans still won't care because an underrotation causes a massive loss in base value on triples and quads, whereas a knocking a level down from a level 4 to a level 3 on steps is very minimal.

There are also 3 jump passes in the SP and 7 in the LP, so there's more reason to care about jumps.

Commentators also tend to go into detail because jump close-ups happen more easily compared to steps - and ease means jumps are more likely to get close-ups.

Footwork clusters are also too hard to do, because the edge changes, the pivots, and the transfers of weight over feet happens much too quickly to get a good gist off video for commentators. The choreography also makes it harder to keep full track of it all.
 
I forgot to add every singles skaters and pair team when they do jump correctly land with running edge whether it be a throwing jump single, double, triple, or quad. Has that running edge.
A spectator remember that jump and overall program.
It show take off, air, landing done right.

Too many land without jump move to next thing. Ilia does it on a few.

When skaters done find out edge, ur or something that prevented it.

Too many times landed jump . Hooray no running edge that shows skating skills in landing

Too manyvtimes injury
 
Fans still won't care because an underrotation causes a massive loss in base value on triples and quads, whereas a knocking a level down from a level 4 to a level 3 on steps is very minimal.
But should that be the case?

The poll at the beginning of this thread asks whether the number of quads per program should be reduced to allow for more artistry.

I'm asking a different question: Should the value of rotation in the air (either by number of high-revolution jumps permitted, or the base values and positive GOEs awarded to those jumps, or strictness of penalties for mild underrotation such as q jumps) be reduced and/or the value of blade-to-ice edge and turn skating skills, in step sequences and also throughout the program, should be rewarded more when performed with excellence and penalized more when performed poorly?

There are also 3 jump passes in the SP and 7 in the LP, so there's more reason to care about jumps.

Commentators also tend to go into detail because jump close-ups happen more easily compared to steps - and ease means jumps are more likely to get close-ups.

Footwork clusters are also too hard to do, because the edge changes, the pivots, and the transfers of weight over feet happens much too quickly to get a good gist off video for commentators. The choreography also makes it harder to keep full track of it all.
Yes, these are practical reasons why commentators focus more on jumps.

Perhaps there could be more focus on the specifics of what the ice dancers need to accomplish with their blades in order to earn high scores. Then fans who learn more about turns and edges from ice dance commentary could transfer some of that knowledge to other disciplines if they also watch those.
 
❓ She still does classes with the IOC, and advises Korean skaters. She was present in the stands at PyeongChang. She awarded medals at 4CC 2020.

If you want to get specific that IOC and ISU are different... well all those skaters would register with the ISU and compete under its banner anyway?
Yes, that's right. My memory may fade me but AFAIR I think Yuna even skated as the torch bearer in PyeongChang, did she?

Yes, IOC has very respectful policies towards the retired Olympians, and I applaud them for it wholeheartedly.
Especially they really cherish their OGMs :jump3: not letting themselves be carried away by internal conflicts, power fights and other shenanigans of no importance to the general public. It is the same with Yuzuru, they follow his post-competitive career closely and lovingly, note all his shows, write reviews and lots of articles. They also used Yuzuru's image to promote Milano Cortina since the very launching of the MC promo. In fact, it was Yuzuru that was the "face" of MC's website official figure skating section launch. That's right, they are separate organisations and I think ISU and IOC have their own differences between them. Plus the local federation and the way they are able to shape their relations with their greatest former stars (or not) matters heavily, too, I guess. JSF is a part of ISU structure, while it is JOC that translates to IOC.
 
Perhaps there could be more focus on the specifics of what the ice dancers need to accomplish with their blades in order to earn high scores. Then fans who learn more about turns and edges from ice dance commentary could transfer some of that knowledge to other disciplines if they also watch those.
This is an excellent point. I've been watching skating for a very long time, and I still get confused about ice dance scoring. It's not as clear to me as singles/pairs.

I think a lot of people think, "this program has such pretty music, and it made me cry" and believe that should be the winner. I don't think that at all, but I also don't stand on firm footing to explain why that isn't usually the case.

I read commentary here and elsewhere from "knowledgeable contributors" but I can't really tell if they're on the level or if they're simply spouting things to justify why their preferred skater won (or should have won). I'm much more at the mercy of the officials in ice dance - I don't feel qualified to comment on things other than to say, "I really liked that!" or "They looked fast."

And honestly, it's the same with a footwork sequence. I get the concept of "difficult turns" and "cleanliness" but I can't tell what those are in real time, or even on replay. I think Jean Luc Baker did a good job of explaining ice dance stuff on a practice cam on Peacock at some event, but it's pretty rare to get much substance on a main broadcast.
 
Should the value of rotation in the air (either by number of high-revolution jumps permitted, or the base values and positive GOEs awarded to those jumps, or strictness of penalties for mild underrotation such as q jumps) be reduced and/or the value of blade-to-ice edge and turn skating skills, in step sequences and also throughout the program, should be rewarded more when performed with excellence and penalized more when performed poorly?
No. I am okay with simply knocking a jumping pass out and limiting to 4 quads. That'd mean 6 jumps - and then three spins, one step sequence, and one choreography sequence. That's about balanced, and then skating skills get an additional 10 points.

I don't feel the need to reward skating skills and step sequences in a different way, but did prefer the 5 component system, to now. IMO, performance and interpretation tended to be the more 'artistic' components, whereas the other three could judge the technicalities (basic skating, transitional content, patterns). That was fine. It really was not as unbalanced as some seem to think.

I do think they should go back to the 4.5 minute mark for men and pairs.

Perhaps there could be more focus on the specifics of what the ice dancers need to accomplish with their blades in order to earn high scores. Then fans who learn more about turns and edges from ice dance commentary could transfer some of that knowledge to other disciplines if they also watch those.

Let Ice Dance be Ice Dance - why exactly does there need to be MORE focus on blade to ice skills in singles and pairs? Does anyone ask Ice Dancers to go jump? It makes perfect sense to me that pairs and singles skaters get away some less than ideal turns.

While I'm on this topic, I'll just say I don't wish to hear Mark Hanretty commentating on singles and pairs. In lieu of getting specialised commentators for each discipline, let Chris do singles and pairs. I don't want ice dancers who misrepresent jump technique and spend too much time talking about impressions on these disciplines.
 
Especially they really cherish their OGMs :jump3: not letting themselves be carried away by internal conflicts, power fights and other shenanigans of no importance to the general public. It is the same with Yuzuru, they follow his post-competitive career closely and lovingly, note all his shows, write reviews and lots of articles. They also used Yuzuru's image to promote Milano Cortina since the very launching of the MC promo. In fact, it was Yuzuru that was the "face" of MC's website official figure skating section launch. That's right, they are separate organisations and I think ISU and IOC have their own differences between them. Plus the local federation and the way they are able to shape their relations with their greatest former stars (or not) matters heavily, too, I guess. JSF is a part of ISU structure, while it is JOC that translates to IOC.
They use Hanyu because he's popular, and his fans give them clicks. That's how social media marketing works. Hanyu fans are particularly ardent fans at that.

I'm pointing out something else entirely - ISU didn't "lose" Yuna - because she works with them in more ways than one. So whatever you're saying doesn't necessarily work out.

Not at all to say Hanyu isn't a great skater and isn't doing great work (not that I keep up), and of course there's some interest going on with what a two time champion is doing - not to mention it's handy to promote the olympics and figure skating like that. Just your point doesn't work out. And it's possible Hanyu too comes back - as a coach, as someone who leads classes for the JOC, as someone who gives music and costume advise, as a commentator, so on.

I get the feeling you have too sunny of an opinion when it comes to Olympic committees, especially those in Asian countries :laugh:
 
Two things can be true at one time.

By any measure, Yuzuru Hanyu is one of the greatest figure skaters ever. His drive to improve spurred him, and the sport as a whole, to new heights. His two Olympic gold medals.... not to mention multiple World, Continental, and Grand Prix gold medals... set him apart from his peers on competitive ice. His unique artistic abilities continue to draw huge crowds. He has amassed a legion of loyal fans.

Yuzuru Hanyu has retired from competition. His career and his artistic and athletic gifts inspire most of today's upper-level skaters, as they will others for decades. He is missed, but the competitive focus of the skating world has shifted to those currently competing for medals and accolades, and they are worthy successors and beneficiaries of his legacy.
 
They use Hanyu because he's popular, and his fans give them clicks. That's how social media marketing works. Hanyu fans are particularly ardent fans at that.

I'm pointing out something else entirely - ISU didn't "lose" Yuna - because she works with them in more ways than one. So whatever you're saying doesn't necessarily work out.

Not at all to say Hanyu isn't a great skater and isn't doing great work (not that I keep up), and of course there's some interest going on with what a two time champion is doing - not to mention it's handy to promote the olympics and figure skating like that. Just your point doesn't work out. And it's possible Hanyu too comes back - as a coach, as someone who leads classes for the JOC, as someone who gives music and costume advise, as a commentator, so on.

I get the feeling you have too sunny of an opinion when it comes to Olympic committees, especially those in Asian countries :laugh:
Maybe, maybe not, who can tell.
I do not think she does things for ISU but for the Korean Fed - but here I do not follow that closely so I might be wrong. If so, I stand corrected. But I remember she was quite bitter, wasn't she? It is good to know things heal with time.
From what Yuzu is saying now, he does not envisage his future this way at all, but of course who knows, he can change his mind 10 times in the years to come. As for now, they lost him. And it seems he's doing so well without them that really there is no reason for him to even entertain the thought of coming back in any role or form, even just for kicks.
As for too sunny, I know very well they all have their faults and do things for clicks but it seems some offices are just staffed with a tad different people than some others...., lol.
 
Two things can be true at one time.

By any measure, Yuzuru Hanyu is one of the greatest figure skaters ever. His drive to improve spurred him, and the sport as a whole, to new heights. His two Olympic gold medals.... not to mention multiple World, Continental, and Grand Prix gold medals... set him apart from his peers on competitive ice. His unique artistic abilities continue to draw huge crowds. He has amassed a legion of loyal fans.

Yuzuru Hanyu has retired from competition. His career and his artistic and athletic gifts inspire most of today's upper-level skaters, as they will others for decades. He is missed, but the competitive focus of the skating world has shifted to those currently competing for medals and accolades, and they are worthy successors and beneficiaries of his legacy.
Thank you for these words!
But that's right. Two things can be true at one time.
You can focus on today and still honour the sport's past greats, there is no contradiction in that, it is not really one or the other.
Like they do in tennis which I love to watch.
 
I do not think she does things for ISU but for the Korean Fed - but here I do not follow that closely so I might be wrong.
So if she appears at 4CC 2020's medal ceremonies, what does it mean?

But I remember she was quite bitter, wasn't she?
What gives you the impression that she was quite bitter?

Call it Asian politeness, but she was very gracious after Sochi.

She worked tirelessly for the PyeongChang Olympics.

She appeared in 2020 4CCs award ceremonies.

She gives advise to internationally competitive skaters.

Bitterness and burnout can exist, but there's no one reason for them. Do remember that she's a female athlete in a sport filled with abuse - what happened to *her* is never going to apply to a male skater, especially from a country that had a tradition of skating, like Japan did by the time Hanyu came along.

As an example, Hanyu never needed to complain about not having proper ice rink time during his fundamental phases, the rinks weren't too cold for him, he didn't develop back injuries due to the infrastructure that was so piss poor. He also had many people around him at all times, going through the same scrutiny he did as top Japanese skaters - Yuna had to bear all that from South Korea all alone.
 
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Do fans not care because commentators never show close-up replays and explain these turns in detail? What if that kind of information was provided to help clarify why some step sequences (and other elements in ice dance) don't receive the levels they're aiming at?

There's an expression, "Confuse 'em, you lose 'em." Focusing on minutiae in step sequences is not going to help the public understand step sequences as a whole but larger points will. Further, I would prefer to teach the public starting with a positive rather than a negative. Especially with step sequences which I think need to be held up as something to value as much as a quad. Several years ago, Ted Barton made viewers aware of just how difficult it is to do a step sequence in an aggressive manner and the physical toll it takes on the body. I applauded him for doing that, but I also recall thinking how the step sequence as a whole is woefully lacking in BV given the physical investment some skaters use to perform it in their programs. Mark Hanretty has brought it up, as well as Johnny Weir. That a step sequence can still be launched into at the end of a program, on already tired legs, is something to be brought up on air to make viewers aware of its difficulty as well as something that can be used to balance out quads in a program but only if the BV is pumped up, as many of us have suggested over the last year or more.

It's not that I don't think skaters reaching a level 4 in a step sequence is important, far from it, but I would rather see step sequences as a whole be lifted to a completely different level, so to speak, to help balance out a program - as well as the public's understanding of them. This is where commentators can play a pivotal role and help facilitate the process. But commenting on why a skater did not do something within a step sequence (achieve a 4) may only confuse a viewer unless they have an overall understanding of them to begin with. After that has been achieved, then a commentator could begin dishing out granularity.
 
That a step sequence can still be launched into at the end of a program, on already tired legs, is something to be brought up on air to make viewers aware of its difficulty as well as something that can be used to balance out quads in a program but only if the BV is pumped up, as many of us have suggested over the last year or more.
How many people do quads at the end of the program, if you don't mind my asking? What's the reason for that?

In a sport like ID, where there is nothing but basic skating, spinning, and lifting, they don't seem too tired, and they can keep doing those elements wherever. What's the reason for that?

Increasing step sequence value - in a sport where already high GOE and full levels are awarded to those with reputation, and where poor basic skating is overscored to high heaven (forget Malinin, look at Grassl), would be the worst decision, and turn singles and pairs into ID. What exactly is the point of having four separate disciplines after that?
 
Increasing step sequence value - in a sport where already high GOE and full levels are awarded to those with reputation, and where poor basic skating is overscored to high heaven (forget Malinin, look at Grassl), would be the worst decision, and turn singles and pairs into ID.

Full levels are not awarded with rep. It they were, you wouldn't see Ilia or Grassl with level 3's in any of their programs. There are plenty to see. Using the tired line: "doing X in singles will turn it into ID" has worn itself out and needs to be put out to pasture.
 
Further, I would prefer to teach the public starting with a positive rather than a negative.
Absolutely.

Talking about the performance aspects of step sequences and choreo sequences (and how that affects GOE and PCS is good. I'd love to hear more about that. Of course these aspects are more subjective, and fans can have their own opinions about how well a skater interpreted music, for example, that might be just as valid as most judges'.

I'd also like to see educational snippets about what is being rewarded technically in the skating content of the step sequences. Point out that skaters earn higher levels by rotating in both directions and by using whole body movement (this does already happen occasionally and can be said during the step sequence itself). We also occasionally hear a quick comment to the effect that tech panels and judges are looking at "what the skaters are doing with their blades" or that the skaters get credit for "difficult turns" but without any detail.

I definitely don't want detail during the performance itself. Stop talking and let me listen to the music and appreciate how the skater uses their skating skills and body movements to interpret it.

But for events, especially live events, where there will be down time before and between skating groups, if broadcasters are going to make little 30-second or 1-minute features on how to tell jump takeoffs apart, they could also make little features on the different kinds of turns.

New viewers aren't going to get much from an explanation of the difference between a three turn and a bracket, except perhaps to get it on their mental radar that there are different ways of turning around on one foot and some of them are harder than others. And even that is valuable knowledge compared to assuming that how skaters get from one element to the next, or what they do with their blades while performing to the music in a leveled step sequence, is irrelevant.

But more experienced viewers her already know how to tell one jump from another and recognize errors on jump takeoffs and landings can also learn to recognize different turns.

By all means it's better to focus on helping viewers learn to recognize the different turns, not to focus on what skaters did wrong . . . which would be like nitpicking a skater's edge change on a lutz or flip for viewers who don't even understand the difference between lutzes and axels.

For ice dance, on the other hand, these fine details often do make a difference. Commentators sometimes do show replays of twizzle sequences where one of the partners had a subtle error that resulted in a lower level/base value and GOE.

So keep doing that. Also do it for the one-foot sequences in the free dance, the required pattern key points in the (junior) rhythm danceor the step sequence if an otherwise strong team makes an uncharacteristic error that loses them levels and maybe a medal, if the error was obvious to the officials and the commentator but probably not noticed by most fans, unless it's pointed out.


How many people do quads at the end of the program, if you don't mind my asking? What's the reason for that?
People who are attempting six quads. And even then, not at the very end, just after the halfway point.

Why? Because while both quads and aggressively skated level 4 step sequences are highly demanding both technically and athletically/aerobically, quads are much less forgiving of any minor technical errors.

If a tired skater makes a mistake on a difficult turn in a step sequence, must times they can just put the other foot down early and the casual viewer won't even notice a problem. Maybe there will be a visible stumble, or at worst a fall from a small to moderate distance depending what the skater doing at the time.

With quads, at worst a skater will fall from a significant height at high speed. Aside from loss of points, which would be greater under the current scoring, there's also a much greater risk of injury.

In a sport like ID, where there is nothing but basic skating, spinning, and lifting, they don't seem too tired, and they can keep doing those elements wherever. What's the reason for that?
There are a few posters here who have competed in ice dance. I'll defer to their experience about how tiring an ice dance program can be.

But I will reiterate that it's often easier to save a mistake on most ice dance moves by just putting the other foot down, which is not always an option when attempting to land a jump.
(You will typically see more two-footed jumps later in programs, except insofar as skaters might put the jumps they're less consistent with earlier in the program because they're already concerned about failing the jump even on fresh legs.)

Increasing step sequence value - in a sport where already high GOE and full levels are awarded to those with reputation,
If you don't know much about how step sequence values are determined, how are you in a position to conclude that the high values and full levels are being rewarded based on reputation rather than based on qualities of skating that you may choose not to learn about (and that are much harder to appreciate on video than live)?

and where poor basic skating is overscored to high heaven (forget Malinin, look at Grassl), would be the worst decision, and turn singles and pairs into ID.

Giving more rewards to difficult and high-quality blade-to-ice skating would be continuing the tradition of what was always rewarded in singles free skating throughout the figures era but lost some importance in the 1990s/early 2000s, when figures were gone and younger skaters often lacked those skills, but jump difficulty was becoming more and more important.

The introduction of leveled step sequences in singles and pairs was always intended as a way to promote basic skating skills in the free skating context, to force skaters to develop fundamental skills that many had not bothered with in the

What exactly is the point of having four separate disciplines after that?

Ice dancers don't do multirotational jumps (or complex singles spins, or overhead lifts and other characteristic pair moves).

The point of encouraging skaters in disciplines that do include those elements ALSO to demonstrate difficult and high-quality skating skills honors the fundamental values of singles free skating dating back longer than the existence of ice dance as a competitive discipline and encourages a well-rounded skill set, not just acrobatic elements connected by the simplest possible stroking from one element to the next.

What distinguishes ice dance from other disciplines is the emphasis on skating in time with the rhythm of the music at all times, and remaining in physical contact with the partner at all times with the exception of a few kinds of side-by-side elements such as twizzles.

Of course in solo ice dance (newly an international but not yet a championship-level discipline) there's no partnering. But still, there are differences between what's expected in solo dance vs. singles skating. The absence or presence of rotational jumps is only the most obvious.
 
If you don't know much about how step sequence values are determined, how are you in a position to conclude that the high values and full levels are being rewarded based on reputation rather than based on qualities of skating that you may choose not to learn about (and that are much harder to appreciate on video than live)?
Where did I say "I don't know much about how step sequence values are determined"?

I don't need to hunt for too many examples of it at all, there were many Russian girls who got too-high GOE and current examples include Malinin and Grassl. Malinin SS score is similarly far too high, even though he's more deserving of those than Grassl.

Giving more rewards to difficult and high-quality blade-to-ice skating would be continuing the tradition of what was always rewarded in singles free skating throughout the figures era but lost some importance in the 1990s/early 2000s,
And your argument about why there should be a retrogression to the past is - what? It was so in the past, and therefore it should be so in the present is an argument that's quite easily defeated.

Ice dancers don't do multirotational jumps (or complex singles spins, or overhead lifts and other characteristic pair moves).
Well no doubt singles skaters don't do lifts, they're singles. My point is if people are already complaining about poor scoring of GOE and PCS - how precisely is *increasing* the value of an element that has so many clusters, so much choreography, so much more sheer subjectivity to its judgment and evaluation - going to help in three of the other disciplines? It will only make the characteristic of the judgment more similar to ice dance.

People may put in more effort in those step sequences, but then it'll inherently lead to a lowering of attempted difficulty - because a human being has limited energy. When you're already wanting to limit the number of quads (and in my case, arguing for one fewer jumping pass altogether), why precisely is this desirable?

This is a simple question, that I've asked before. You don't ask Ice Dancers to go do jumps, let alone judge them. Yet, for some reason, we need to increase the value of step sequences and basic skating and judge steps and turns better in singles skating? For what reason?

What distinguishes ice dance from other disciplines is the emphasis on skating in time with the rhythm of the music at all times, and remaining in physical contact with the partner at all times with the exception of a few kinds of side-by-side elements such as twizzles.
I mean I have to say, Ice Dance is the least musical and artistic discipline of all to me.
 
And your argument about why there should be a retrogression to the past is - what? It was so in the past, and therefore it should be so in the present is an argument that's quite easily defeated.
"retrogression" is your word -- skating purists would say it is preserving the fundamental values of what makes figure skating figure skating.

As opposed to ice jumping, which if that's all that counted would be a completely different sport.
 
If, yes. If ifs and ands were pots and pans, there's be no work for tinkers' hands...

As to your second paragraph, I would be very happy if you would provide me with a scoring issue faced by, say, Nathan Chen, Ilia Malinin, Anna Shcherbakova, Kamila Valieva (in her international career) that would be against them? (In fact, for Anna Shcherbakova, I remember a call her coach disapproved and it was ditched, after the end of the competition!) I see heaps of scoring issues benefitting them, on the other hand. But you're so affirmative that you must have examples in mind? And I'm sorry that you're still into the Components = Artistry thing. Vibes, as they say. I know that it's a common error but maybe one more to be debunked? Very little in the Components is judging Artistry. The rest is measurable criteria. A judge can weight criteria differently inside each Component, but the same grid must apply to all (and be sensible); I hope that your Mathematical notions allow you to understand that this cannot lead a judge to give a higher score to a less good criteria?
@ Luxvult and @4everchan, of course you may answer too, you too must have examples in mind? 4everchan, your favourite skater wasn't as egregiously overscored than the precited skaters, so I wouldn't be as dubious on the existence of any unfavourable scoring error on one of his skates, still I wouldn't mind it either if you told us, for my personal Figure Skating lore...

Chen's Olympic FS was pretty egregiously underscored (I mean, 8.00's?!). Some judges placed him ahead of Kolyada with 2 falls ... and multiple perfect scores of 10's were given to Hanyu in spite of sloppy landings/obvious errors on his 2nd 4T and his 3Z.
https://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_MenSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf Multiple judges gave his 4T+3T(rippon), 3Z+3A, and FSSp3 just 0's for GOE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlNDKs0O9tY

Malinin was underscored in his perfect 2023 Worlds SP https://www.isuresults.com/results/season2223/wc2023/data0103.pdf - which got him 7.5/7.75's (his PCS of 40.89 was worse than Tomono who fell, and Vasiljevs/Fa/Rizzo who had multiple errors in their SPs). He had errors in his FS but I still think his PCS of 80.98 was stingy https://www.isuresults.com/results/season2223/wc2023/data0105.pdf (considering 84.02 has been "earned" for a program with 5 falls https://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf). He also underscored in his perfect 2024 Worlds SP. https://results.isu.org/results/sea...------QUAL000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf (one judge gave him only 8.00's - worse than skaters who fell like Cha and Miura. For an actually perfect free skate (one of the best of all time) he was still given 8.75s for presentation (some judges marked him worse than Kagiyama who had a fall, and skaters with multiple errors like Uno and Vasiljevs) https://results.isu.org/results/sea...------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf Thankfully that didn't hold him back from being the rightful winner.

Here's an example of Anna getting a UR call for what I thought was a clean 4F (based on the landing). But the PCS was crazy of course. She generally had a team politicking for her - ones that had their skaters' edge calls ignored by the judges and PCS through the roof for poor programs and good but not 9-worthy components, so using her and Valieva (or any Tutberidze skater) as examples is a bit of a false equivalence. https://www.isuresults.com/results/...------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf
 
"retrogression" is your word -- skating purists would say it is preserving the fundamental values of what makes figure skating figure skating.
Skating purists might as well say you shouldn't raise your arms above waist level since it's too flowery and you're a man. I don't feel the need to listen them.

You point out the 90s and 2000s, when some of the best skating happened then, if we strictly speak about artistry. Ito, Browning, Chen Lu, Kwan, Yagudin, Cohen, Savoie, Lambiel, Kim, Asada, Takahashi - take your pick.
 
There's an expression, "Confuse 'em, you lose 'em." Focusing on minutiae in step sequences is not going to help the public understand step sequences.
Every once in a while some kind and knowledgeable enthusiast takes the time to post a detailed analysis of what is going on in some particular skater's step sequence. I don't know about general general audiences, but I find myself flabbergasted at just the simple list of the myriad elements -- rockers, counters, turns of various kinds -- that even a simple step sequence parades, moving from one to another in the blink of an eye. :bow:

As for putting the step sequence at the end of the program, if you do it right it can have the exhilarating effect of a baseball player who just hit an inside-the-park home rune -- and here she comes, rounding third and digging for the plate!!! And here comes the throw!!!! :rock:
 
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