Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry? | Page 33 | Golden Skate

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 43.2%
  • No

    Votes: 96 56.8%

  • Total voters
    169
What stands out to me is that for the very top skaters, the TES is a much more reliable predictor of overall standing than is the PCS.
Its the Base Value of the elements who is the most reliable predictor, I would say, as in artistic gymnastic or in diving and other sports. On the day of the performance, scores can go up or down of course, depending of how you perform your own personal base value.
 
Its the Base Value of the elements who is the most reliable predictor, I would say, as in artistic gymnastic or in diving and other sports. On the day of the performance, scores can go up or down of course, depending of how you perform your base value.
Some errors resulting in lower base value than planned, others just in lower grade of execution
 
Some errors resulting in lower base value than planned, others just in lower grade of execution
Which is perfectly fine :yes1: But fans forget that skaters have their planned content before the competition, as what they think are able to present on that day, and when i say to present, I'm including also the elements of the programme not standing in the judging sheet before the competition, as basic speed for example. Skaters involvement, as artistic side of the sport it's not that hard to judge too, when you have live response of the performance by the public in the arena to help you- As in a theatre, you are getting ovations, or not :biggrin:
 
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Its the Base Value of the elements who is the most reliable predictor,
I would say so, too, on the average. That being the case, there is nothing the ISU can do on the "artistic"side that will amount to anything in terms of who wins and who looses.

If a skater gets outquaded, all he can realistically hope for is that the other guy will make a bunch of mistakes.
 
I would say so, too, on the average. That being the case, there is nothing the ISU can do on the "artistic"side that will amount to anything in terms of who wins and who looses.

If a skater gets outquaded, all he can realistically hope for is that the other guy will make a bunch of mistakes.
Well, lets not make it that simple ;)
 
Its the Base Value of the elements who is the most reliable predictor, I would say, as in artistic gymnastic or in diving and other sports. On the day of the performance, scores can go up or down of course, depending of how you perform your own personal base value.
Actually, one could quad a FS program to death, q or < every jump with negative GOE and still win a GP Final.
 
Thanks for sharing your expertise. :)


If there's going to be a separate judging track/appointment specifically for artistic judges, and if there's some level of qualification to be accepted into the training, then most of the prospective judges in this track would already have a lot of this basic knowledge. Not all would be trained musicians, though, and reminders are always useful.
Of course. I expect that even the less musical judges have some basic knowledge but sometimes, this knowledge comes from experience and deduction. It would really help them to have someone clarify things for them.
Skaters are now allowed to use music with lyrics, but they are not expected to interpret the words.
But some skaters do. So, if they decide to interpret the words, should they at least stick to the lyrics and be evaluated on that ? I mean there are more and more programs with extensive "voice overs" without music... or much music. What do we expect them to interpret if they are not expected to interpret the words when there are sections with only... words :)
Before lyrics were permitted, it was pretty common for skaters to use instrumental versions of vocal music such as songs and opera excerpts. Some of the skaters and some of the judges might have been familiar with the lyrics associated with the melodies, others would not have.
Yes. and to me, that was great because it did give the freedom not to skate to the "lyrics' but just the tune. I liked that and I still prefer instrumental versions of songs and opera.
Even with lyrics, some skaters and some judges will not understand the language they're being sung in. Even sometimes when it's a language that the skater/judge does speak, but the lyrics aren't very distinguishable in the music.
For me, that's not a good reason at least for skaters and their teams. Getting lyrics for a song is one click... getting translated lyrics to a song is another click. It's so much simpler nowadays so I don't find that argument very heavy.
So all they're really meant to do is interpret the music.

KNOWING what the composer had in mind for this music might help the skater interpret the mood, emotion, theme, etc. But I don't think we can ask them to interpret the specific words on a word-by-word or sentence-by-sentence basis.
I would be fine with a general idea. No need to do word painting on skates here... but again, when a skater selects to interpret the words, should they be accountable ?
If a skater does interpret the words as well as the musical phrasing, maybe that could bring some extra credit (from the judges who also understand what the singer is saying). But I don't think we should expect penalties for interpreting the musical phrasing without reference to the verbal content.


Yes, I think watching performances together and discussing them together would be very important. It's one thing to listen to a brilliant lecture/power point with well-chosen examples, but that's likely to remain fairly superficial, and boring for those participants who already have the basic knowledge. Discussion and even debate can lead to deeper thinking, from both those who are new to this material and those who are already familiar with it, at least outside the skating context.

But you can't get all the judges in the world into the same discussion. They can all watch the same video lecture with video examples. They can all be required to attend some live training before getting the appointment and every few years afterward, but even that will be in smaller groups. They'll talk to each at competitions, in the hospitality rooms or elsewhere. But they won't all be part of the exact same conversation.

They do, but not in nearly as much depth as you would get from a full-semester class on music appreciation.

More like a couple-hour overview, ideally with some live examples and guided discussion. But, see above.
If the ISU really wanted judges to be more alert on PCS scoring, they'd require more of these seminars. A few hours is definitely not enough.
Agreed.
Which is part of why I was sorry to see the Interpretation score combined with Presentation/Performance rather than remaining a separate score.
If we're going to separate out a judging panel who judges only the "artistic" components, we can separate those again, along with Composition.

Transitions can probably be considered under Composition, at least from the artistic perspective. The difficulty of transitions can be considered under Skating Skills.


Yup.


Another question:

If we're going to have an artistic judging panel who may come from the world of performing arts, and who love skating enough to want to become judges of the artistic side of competitive skating...
By "I love skating" they may mean that it's their favorite part of the winter Olympics and they always make a point to watch as much of the Olympic skating as their national networks broadcast. They might have professional levels of music or off-ice dance knowledge, but no more than every-4-years fan knowledge of skating.

So, as part of their training to become artistic skating judges, what would they need to learn?
We would definitely need them to learn another language : skating repertoire. How do skaters use their skills to portray music. It's not as hard as it seems to be. There are various categories including the TES elements (to be able to judge if they highlight the musical score) but there are other categories like gliding moves (Ina Bauer, Spread Eagle, hydroblading, spirals), acrobatics, choreographic footwork and transitions etc. A judge cannot evaluate musical interpretation without knowing what is possible to do on the ice.

Honestly, I wasn't advocating that there would be "artistic judges" who are not skaters though I would personally love the experience LOL... but more that current judges train better to be able to judge Composition and Performance. Some judges may not want to take that training because they are not musically inclined nor interested. They could still judge GOE and skating skills. But others, those with dance and music backgrounds and /or interest, could take that supplemental training, just like some singles judges take on pairs judging training etc and would then be allowed to judge not only GOE but also Composition and Performance.
 
But some skaters do. So, if they decide to interpret the words, should they at least stick to the lyrics and be evaluated on that ?
If they decide to interpret the words, yes.
But what constitutes interpreting the words?

Here's a pro performance from the era when lyrics were not allowed in ISU competition. It's not structured like a competitive program.

This skater does a great job interpreting the music (IMO) and also does a good job interpreting the words.

But how much would a judge who doesn't understand English miss if they were just judging the skating to the music?

Here is a short program from the first season after the ban on lyrics was lifted. There are some lyrics in the song, although most of the music as edited is instrumental.

Is the skater interpreting the words? Or is he interpreting the aural soundscape, with the vocals as musically important as the guitars or drums, but the words being sung perhaps not so much.

I mean there are more and more programs with extensive "voice overs" without music... or much music. What do we expect them to interpret if they are not expected to interpret the words when there are sections with only... words

Yes, if they choose to skate to spoken word, one would expect them to interpret the words. Which might not be very musical.

For that reason, I would be fine with it if the ISU chose to discourage this option.

For me, that's not a good reason at least for skaters and their teams. Getting lyrics for a song is one click... getting translated lyrics to a song is another click. It's so much simpler nowadays so I don't find that argument very heavy.

They can read what the lyrics are and understand what the song is about.

But do we expect to focus on the meaning of what word is being sung with each note of the music, as is often the case in my first link above?

During a spin, it's hard enough to interpret the musical nuances (and should be rewarded when the skater manages to do so). Asking them also to interpret the specific lyrics the singer is singing while the skater is spinning seems impractical.

I would be fine with a general idea. No need to do word painting on skates here... but again, when a skater selects to interpret the words, should they be accountable ?

Accountable to what? The intentions of the lyricist? Or the intentions of the program, which may be intentionally repurposing both music and lyrics?

Sometimes skaters choose excerpts from songs because there are particular prominent words that they want to express, but those phrases in isolation are not what the song is actually about.

This is an exhibition performance, even less structured like a competitive program, chosen as an extreme example.

But if skaters chose snippets of words to interpret out of context whose meaning doesn't match the original context, is that a problem? Does it make a difference how much they're interpreting the musical phrasing?
They do it all the time using music from operas, ballets, musical comedies, film scores, etc., to tell stories unrelated to the source of the music.

If the ISU really wanted judges to be more alert on PCS scoring, they'd require more of these seminars. A few hours is definitely not enough.
I don't know exactly how much they require.

A video that all judges around the world are expected to watch, just a couple hours.

The live seminars are several days long. But they have a lot more to cover than just music.

Even if there were separate seminars for artistic-components-only judging that every prospective artistic judge needs to attend at least one of, and maybe every already-appointed artistic judge needs to travel to to participate in every year to maintain their appointment, there would be more aspects of those components to cover than just music.

We would definitely need them to learn another language : skating repertoire. How do skaters use their skills to portray music.
Plus everything else that is evaluated in the Composition and Presentation (or separate Performance and Interpretation) components. It's not ALL about music.

It's not as hard as it seems to be. There are various categories including the TES elements (to be able to judge if they highlight the musical score) but there are other categories like gliding moves (Ina Bauer, Spread Eagle, hydroblading, spirals), acrobatics, choreographic footwork and transitions etc. A judge cannot evaluate musical interpretation without knowing what is possible to do on the ice.
Yes.

And choreographers/dance experts (let alone musicians who don't know that much about human movement to begin with) cannot evaluate the composition of a program without knowing what it's possible to do on the ice, what's rewarded technically (so the skaters want to include as much as they can) and what is allowed but not rewarded outside of the CO and PR components.

but more that current judges train better to be able to judge Composition and Performance.
That would be more feasible.

Some judges may not want to take that training because they are not musically inclined nor interested. They could still judge GOE and skating skills.
Yes, if the panels are split.

But others, those with dance and music backgrounds and /or interest, could take that supplemental training, just like some singles judges take on pairs judging training etc and would then be allowed to judge not only GOE but also Composition and Performance.
That could work.
 
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He had a fall, too.
It wasn't technically a fall. I usually protest when such difficult landings are called as fall, which they are sometimes (of course not for favourites).
I don't think that it was much disruptive given the near-absence of any interpretation but given how he was scored in Components, above Shun Sato (!!!) it does indeed add to the scandal. Let's say that, with any skater with real Components, it would have been disruptive, and he was given the scores of someone having real Components. But I can very well understand that nobody here remembers, and that judges weren't affected.
 
So if, as an example, in a competition someone scores "9.25"- what does it mean with the proposed logarithmic/exponential scale?
It means something like this. First we identify and quantify what factors produce high (or low) PCSs. As proposed by @DizzyFrenchie in post #605 above, these might include such ingredients as hard work, intrinsic talent, good coaching and commitment to choreography.

Then if the skater aspires to raise his PCSs by .25 points on the average, he must work. let's say 6% harder than he worked last year, become 6% more talented, hire a new coach that is 6% better than his old one, and concentrate 6% more than previously on choreography. (This is for logarithmic base 1.5.)

All these 6%s compound quickly at the high end, meaning that it is a Herculean task for the skater to raise his PCSs from, let's say, 9.25 to 9.50.

For any particular performance, of course, he might get higher or lower depending on mistakes. generosity of judging panels, etc.
 
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By the way, choosing multiplicative scoring wouldn't just lack meaning, it would also amplify overscoring and underscoring.
Yes, but that's kind of the point. If the goal of this thread is to consider ways ways to make the more subjective "artistic" judgments more weighty compared to hard and fast considerations like quad base values, then the multiplication thing would do the trick (maybe).
And it would disadvantage more quadless great skaters than poor skaters with many quads...,
Not necessarily. A quadster might get 9,5 points for a quad (0 GOE), but if his PCSs are 7s, hecomes away with ony 70%. A guy with PCS =10 and a tri[ple Lutz with 2 GOE would get the full value and come out slightly ahead in the exchange.
... who today are awarded big PCS along with their TES - if they're pets, that is.
If a skater gets high TES AND high PCS then there is no way to deny him the gold medal by jiggling the scoring system and manipulating numbers. The only thing the ISU could do is to pass a new rule: "No pets allowed."
 
By the way, choosing multiplicative scoring wouldn't just lack meaning, it would also amplify overscoring and underscoring. And it would disadvantage more quadless great skaters than poor skaters with many quads, who today are awarded big PCS along with their TES - if they're pets, that is.
I don't see how it lacks meaning any more than the current system. Skaters still have both their scores - just the TSS calculation changes.

It might indeed amplify under and overscoring - but judging is a separate issue.
 
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If a skater gets high TES AND high PCS then there is no way to deny him the gold medal by jiggling the scoring system and manipulating numbers. The only thing the ISU could do is to pass a new rule: "No pets allowed."
If a skater gets the highest TES and the highest PCS, he'll win regardless. (Well, unless he also racks up the highest number of deductions, enough to more than cancel out his margin of victory over the skater with the next highest TES+PCS.)

But if more than one skater has high TES AND high PCS, who wins?
The one with the highest TES+PCS (absent deductions).

But what if one skater is very good at TES and exceptional at PCS, and the other is very good at PCS and exceptional at TES?

That brings us back to the topic of the thread.

It depends on HOW MUCH BETTER each skater was than the other at their respective strength.

(If there's an absolute tie on points, the tiebreaker in the free skate is PCS. But it's almost never an absolute tie.)

Under 6.0 judging, each judge could decide "Tonight the jumpmaster outjumped his closest opponent by more than the exceptional skkater/artist outskated and outperformed the jumper" -- or vice versa. If judges disagreed with each other about the "by how much," there would be mixed ordinals. But each judge could decide who they thought the winner should be -- for subjective reasons based on their qualitative perceptions and their preferences of what should count for more. (Leaving aside any bias toward or against specific skaters or nationalities.)

With IJS, the Scale of Values and the points available for various types of technical elements, including GOE factors, and the points available for the various factored program components, decide "how much."

Do we want a situation where out-of-this-world jumping plus "very good" other elements, skating, and performance will almost always earn more points than out-of-this world skating (and other elements, and performance) with just "very good" jumping?

Is it built into the system that there are so many points available for jumps that if you earn most of those points and are good to very good at everything else, there's no way someone who is better than you at everything else can earn enough points to make up the difference?

Or is there still room for exceptional everything else and good jumps to beat exceptional jumps and good everything else?

If the balance is currently weighted too far in favor of jumps determining results, is that a problem? If so, how can it be mitigated?
 
Well... the balance used to be fine with top skaters able to score 90-100 points in TES and good PCS (with a maximum of 100)
But now, some skaters can break the 100 mark in TES and there is no way a very excellent out of this world skater would get over 100 in PCS. It's just impossible.

So perhaps, leave the quads but factor in the PCS to 120... and make sure that PCS marks are fairly awarded. So that's the simplest way to keep the quads happening but rebalance both aspects of figure skating.
 
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