Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So now I am wondering, who is the richest living Olympic champion figure skater?

I bet it's Tenley Albright. She is majority owner of a major wealth management firm and of a successful pharmaceutical company, besides sitting on boards of directors of various medical organizations. Her late husband was big in Boston real estate, the owner of the first Ritz-Carlton Hotel which was eventually sold to inaugurate the international Ritz-Carlton chain.

Richest hockey player? Vladimir Putin.

Sure but does Tenley Albright have as many YouTube hits as the great Yuzuru Hanyu? I bet not!

 

[TallyT]

Do we have to drag Yuzuru back into it just for a backhanded sneer? The man has charted his own path, in skating, in artistic shows, in national/international prestige and respect/love, in philanthropy and legacy and yes, in the amount of personal wealth he chooses to amass. He is inimitable; neither his nor for that matter Tenley Allbright's post-competition life (or Yuna's, or Sonja Henie's) are something most other skaters or the ISU can aspire or emulate whether they quad or don't quad.

So if we are to look at what families investing in the sport for their kids can maybe aspire to (apart from a possible 15 minutes of fame and hey don't mock it people have done way more for 5 minutes) maybe look at Nathan, or Kurt Browning, Adam Rippon, Brian Orser, the path Anna S is pursuing, or any of the others who have built a long-term successful life in or out of sport.

 

[yfan1]

Do we have to drag Yuzuru back into it just for a backhanded sneer? The man has charted his own path, in skating, in artistic shows, in national/international prestige and respect/love, in philanthropy and legacy and yes, in the amount of personal wealth he chooses to amass. He is inimitable; neither his nor for that matter Tenley Allbright's post-competition life (or Yuna's, or Sonja Henie's) are something most other skaters or the ISU can aspire or emulate whether they quad or don't quad.

So if we are to look at what families investing in the sport for their kids can maybe aspire to (apart from a possible 15 minutes of fame and hey don't mock it people have done way more for 5 minutes) maybe look at Nathan, or Kurt Browning, Adam Rippon, Brian Orser, the path Anna S is pursuing, or any of the others who have built a long-term successful life in or out of sport.

It's just such a strange direction for this thread to take. "How dare ISU higher the age limits. Don't they know there are too few super stars in the sport and crazy parents won't send their children to it anymore if they think their children won't become stars - of which there exists a pool of like five skaters ever?"

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Do we have to drag Yuzuru back into it just for a backhanded sneer? The man has charted his own path, in skating, in artistic shows, in national/international prestige and respect/love, in philanthropy and legacy and yes, in the amount of personal wealth he chooses to amass. He is inimitable; neither his nor for that matter Tenley Allbright's post-competition life (or Yuna's, or Sonja Henie's) are something most other skaters or the ISU can aspire or emulate whether they quad or don't quad.

So if we are to look at what families investing in the sport for their kids can maybe aspire to (apart from a possible 15 minutes of fame and hey don't mock it people have done way more for 5 minutes) maybe look at Nathan, or Kurt Browning, Adam Rippon, Brian Orser, the path Anna S is pursuing, or any of the others who have built a long-term successful life in or out of sport.

Lol - people who are figure skaters are NOT aspiring to get fame or become rich. And if they are, they sure picked the wrong sport. If anything the vast majority of skaters and their families will live in obscurity and (unless they are rich or well sponsored to begin with) will face massive debt.

 

[Magill]

So now I am wondering, who is the richest living Olympic champion figure skater?

I bet it's Tenley Albright. She is majority owner of a major wealth management firm and of a successful pharmaceutical company, besides sitting on boards of directors of various medical organizations. Her late husband was big in Boston real estate, the owner of the first Ritz-Carlton Hotel which was eventually sold to inaugurate the international Ritz-Carlton chain.

Richest hockey player? Vladimir Putin.

Well, yes, but it seems most of her wealth came from her being a prominent doctor from a prominent medical family, and married to a real estate mogul. I bet she did not really need her skating achievements to be admitted into Harvard Medical School and to make a career later as their graduate in medicine and pharma. I'm not sure it counts in my book then as such. It is like some tennis players who are children of billionaires. You won't necessarily find them on the list of the best earning athletes but if you think of the wealth amassed, then their inherited fortunes obviously come into play and push them up to the top. Yet it's a different list altogether 1. because of the source of wealth and 2. because amassing wealth is not necessarily the same as being best paid, or achieving the highest earnings from the sport and sport-related activities
Same holds true for Putin

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's just such a strange direction for this thread to take. "How dare ISU higher the age limits. Don't they know there are too few super stars in the sport and crazy parents won't send their children to it anymore if they think their children won't become stars - of which there exists a pool of like five skaters ever?"

Yeah… cue rhetoric like “can maybe aspire to”, “15 minutes of fame”, and then a rather condescending listing off of second-tier superstars of the sport who maybe up and coming skaters could try to realistically aspire to be, since those skaters never managed to achieve the utmost success/wealth/online hits.

Malinin has achieved something truly remarkable at the GPF. But people don’t really care for figure skating in the U.S. compared to Japan or Korea or Russia so OF COURSE he won’t ever be as famous or wealthy as a skaters like Hanyu or Kim or Plushenko who were not only talented skaters but who fuelled their brands with the backing of countries who are largely invested and interested in their sport.

Malinin’s GPF 7-quad performance should be at or near the top of every ESPN highlight reel at year end, because that is truly unthinkable and is the technical echelon of his sport. But it will be buried by one handed football catches or a cool basketball dunk or a diving tennis volley or baseball catch (even if we have seen plays like those every year before)… since the U.S. cares about those sports way more.

 

[Mathman]

Still, Malinin has at least broken even and probably has a million $ or so in the bank at 21 years old to show for his effort, what with modest prize money and a few endorsements and shows.

I wonder what % of all figure skaters in the US ever break even? What about a skater like, say, Isabeu Levito -- U.S. Champion, world silver medalist, lovely girl.

I remember an interview once with U.S. skater Tim Woods, 3 time U.S. champion, 2 time world champion, Olympic silver medalist. He retired at 22, saying that, gosh, here he was, a grown man still depending on his parents to shell out thousands of dollars a year to support him in his childhood obsession. (He did make a little of it back by performing in Ice Capades as a pro.)

 

[Mathman]

And another cool thing about Tenley Albright (age 90): she maintains a website called "My name is Tenley" where people who have that unusual first name can sign up and enjoy fellowship with other Tenleys.

 

[TallyT]

It may well be ignored. Maybe it was when he did it, I don't know. People do equally or more amazing things in other niche sports (and other areas of achievement), and they will be just as buried. It's the way of the world.

What is more relevant than what money and fame and endorsements this or that elite skater can amass (as @yfan1 points out, there are very few of them able to which again is not unusual in sports considered niche in their country) is how much they might influence younger skaters to start and keep on with the demands of this gruelling sport, and attract fans and the public to watch and support them.

And even more relevant (because after all, it is not the responsibility of the skaters in question) is how the ISU and the feds can do the same. They think restricting quads just a little will be good for the sport, just like they thought cutting the free skate would be... well, let's wait and see.

 

[yfan1]

Malinin has achieved something truly remarkable at the GPF. But people don’t really care for figure skating in the U.S. compared to Japan or Korea or Russia so OF COURSE he won’t ever be as famous or wealthy as a skaters like Hanyu or Kim or Plushenko who were not only talented skaters but who fuelled their brands with the backing of countries who are largely invested and interested in their sport.

I do not believe Korea is one of the countries where skating is popular - let alone more popular than in the States.

 

[Skating91]

I know people get annoyed about Russian women having quads as if it's not what they think skating should be (although for men it's okay ), but this isn't their advantage.

You look at Petrosian in the second half of her program at the Russian championships in the second half after struggling with the 3A, falling on the 4T, then popping the second attempt only just a 2T, she jumps 3Lz-2A-2A, and two 3-3 combos in the second half of the program for 39 points.

That's where it was won, and when someone can jump that kind of content after failing in the first half of the program, they take a lot of it out of the judges hands. The quads and triple axel are simply the icing on the cake, not like someone such as Glenn or Rinka who live and die by their triple axels (I will get to why with Glenn).

Compare to the world champion, I'm not sure she can jump a 3-3 in the second half if she had to let alone two at the very end within 20 seconds of each other.

Chiba opened with a 3-3 and then had a two jump sequence instead of a three jump with 2A's, and then just a 3-2-2 combo. There's no margin for error since no strength for big combos in the second half if something goes wrong in the first half.

Glenn another who at the recent GP final loads up with combos in the first half a 3-3 followed by just a 3-2. Two single jumps in the second half the final one was underrotated (the introduction of the sequence rule was a Godsend for Glenn).

In fact, I just went through Amber's results in the free skate for the past three season, she hasn't jumped a second half combo ONCE. Not once. There's zero margin for error. Adelia just jumped two 3-3 combos in the second half after using up energy at the beginning with the 3A and 4T attempts, not to mention her transitions are quite complex compared to all the mentioned skaters therefore depleting more energy.

This is what gets lost in the quads hysteria. Even Petrosian with a simple layout in the Beijing qualifier had the same BV and virtually same TES as the GP final winner (74 compared to 75) with just an opening 3-2 combo, simple sequence with 2T on the end instead of the usual 2A, then 3-3.

Petrosian is only giving up something like a single 3S to take a free shot at an ultra-c jump because she can make it up in the second half. So maybe 3-3 combos in the second half and three jump sequences with two 2A need to be limited to balance artistry as well? Maybe an idea for the 2026 ISU Congress . Even limiting women to just one quad still gives Petrosian a huge advantage, without limiting combos and also forcing them to be in the first half of the program, limiting the sequence to two jumps or only with a perfunctory 2T on the end, then the most skilled jumpers have a big advantage.

 

[Isk]

Oh, I don't think people start skating with the thought of getting rich in mind. It's more like: I want to wear cute white boots with shiny blades and a pretty dress and do cool stuff that these other girls can do.
As a parent I taught my kid everything I could do. One of those things was skate (the others being play piano, climb a rock wall, ski, bike, scooter, sew, cook etc.) I wish I'd learned to draw and paint in childhood, good news is you learn some things with your kid. Some things stick, sometimes kids get to the level or do activities that we can not do, and we can only help them by finding a teacher and funding it. But at some point it does sink in that expenses are non-negligible, and you start wondering if it's worth it. Sometimes parents can't afford it, and people decide it's time to quit and focus on other things. So I'd say yeah, if one remortgages a house or gets in debt to support a sports career, it's reasonable to think or even make plans for future return on the investment or other sources of funding.

 

[Mathman]

It's hardly just the US. Capitalism exists everywhere...

It's not capitalism, it's love of money (aka the root of all evil) that exists everywhere. In every economic system there will be people who pursue personal wealth with enthusiasm.

 

[Mathman]

Here’s the uncool part [of the -5 to +5 GOE system]:

You’re a skater from an unknown country new on the scene who does three quads beautifully with transitions and amplitude but because in the judges’ minds you’re not a top skater, you end up with ho hum 0/+1s...

This has nothing to do with how the scoring system is constructed. In any judged endeavor we depend on the impartiality and competence of the judges. I don't think that twiddling the rules, that replacing judges with tech specialists, tech specialists with AI, will by itself result in fairer competitions.

 

[Magill]

Malinin has achieved something truly remarkable at the GPF. But people don’t really care for figure skating in the U.S. compared to Japan or Korea or Russia so OF COURSE he won’t ever be as famous or wealthy as a skaters like Hanyu or Kim or Plushenko who were not only talented skaters but who fuelled their brands with the backing of countries who are largely invested and interested in their sport.

This is really way more complicated, I think. I know many people here believe skating is hugely popular in Japan but this belief does not seem to be vastly shared by those Japanese who are not dedicated fans, pointing to many other sports being way more popular in general, like baseball, basketball, sumo, judo, tennis, golf. OTOH, Yuzuru and, to a slightly lesser extent, Mao are true superstars and household names, no question about that, surveys consistently prove it too. So was Shizuka Arakawa in her days. Yet none of the currently competing or recently retired skaters can even compare to them, including Kaori and Shoma, each being a 3-time world champion and an Olympic medalist.
I think while it is true that it is easier to gain huge popularity for a star of a popular sport, it is equally true that sports appear to be way more popular when they have huge stars who attract popular attention, with some section of the public taking interest in the sport, or just appearing to do so, as a side effect of their following a popular individual star. So it is really a bidirectional road.
This is even more true for countries smaller than US, Russia or China, which do not win so many medals in so many different sports so any OGM is somewhat appreciated by the general public and gets popular recognition. I was quite surprised to find literally none of my non-skating American friends ever heard of Nathan Chen until I mentioned him. And he was already a multiple world champion and an OGM. In my experience, coming from a medium-size country, names of any compatriot OGM sound familiar to me even if I never followed their sport or watched any competition even for 5 minutes. US wins so many medals that it seems you need so much more to stand out in the eyes of the public. And as it shows, neither Nathan's nor Malinin's skating seems to be very attractive for casual viewers, like it or not, neither in US, nor in Japan, judging by their ticket selling power. If it was, with the many medals they won, they would be way more popular by now taking the sport with them.
So, yes, I do think it is proven that increasing the number of rotations and/or many-rotational jumps does not necessarily work towards increasing the popular interest in the sport or even in the individual skater. So to paraphrase the quoted post above, people don’t really care for the number of quads, neither in US, nor in Japan or Korea. The secret lies somewhere else, it seems.
Will decreasing the total number of rotations per program make a trick? We'll see. I do not think it will be enough on its own, though, without deeper changes to make programs more attractive to watch and their scoring more transparent for a casual viewer.

 

[Isk]

In light of a certain situation there is no point discussing quads any more, unless we can talk openly about biological differences between male and female body at least in matters related to sports only. I'd say this: ban the elements, and let them all compete together in artistry, because even though we are not allowed to say this, I will say it: women can't compete against men in quads, over-the-head lifts, throws etc. as lifting/throwing partners, and men are heavier and therefore harder to lift and throw.
Actually something like this already exists: figure and fancy skating championships, they do figures and artistic skating to music, even elderly people participate. I don't know if they do separate men and women divisions, I believe they do, but I don't see why they couldn't to it otherwise. Some programs are quite artistic and demonstrate non-trivial skating skills. SC should quit ISU. And let's start paying women the same salaries as men for the same work on higher paying jobs, and - why not - let men carry and nurse babies on a 6-weeks maternity leave.
Mostly men complain about intrusion on their non-standard self-identification, I empathize with this, but what about intruding on our, women's self-identification? We like and welcome all sorts of boys, we just don't want them in our shower rooms, OK? And we don't want to lose to them in women's divisions in sports where they have an advantage. That's it. Those are our boundaries, can you respect them? I am saying it as a woman who 99.9% of the time wears pants and no make-up and owns not a single cocktail dress or pair of nylon tights, because per sensory issues I can't wear them. So I do take it in a stride if a guy in a feminine blouse with shiny jewelry asks me what I think of his make-up today and I address them by a woman's name. I have friends like this. I do have to say though that it is hard for a man to replace a woman-friend to a woman. In adulthood friendships with men have their advantages but tend to become more complex and somehow less rewarding.

 

[yfan1]

I think it's about time to take the thread back to what the title is asking.

 

[el henry]

I think quads should be limited for women, for men, for boys and for girls.

I think it would encourage more time practicing and perfecting other areas of skating, if those other areas of skating were a larger part of the overall score. Restatement of the obvious.

OK, that's back to the theme of our program.....

 

[Arigato]

I remember an interview once with U.S. skater Tim Woods, 3 time U.S. champion, 2 time world champion, Olympic silver medalist. He retired at 22, saying that, gosh, here he was, a grown man still depending on his parents to shell out thousands of dollars a year to support him in his childhood obsession. (He did make a little of it back by performing in Ice Capades as a pro.)

Other than figure skating, what sport does a guy "retire" at 22? I don't see 22 as much of a "grown man" when you can't even buy alcohol in the U.S. until age 21.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I do not believe Korea is one of the countries where skating is popular - let alone more popular than in the States.

In the women’s discipline? Uh yeah. In Korea it’s huge. Just like in Japan singles is the marquee event (nobody to the same extent cares about pairs, even with M/K being world champs, and certainly not ice dance except some flash in the pan interest when past singles icons like Takahashi or Kihira take it up).

And re the above about inspiring younger skaters - that’s great and all but there in turn becomes this pressure on these younger skaters to achieve the fame and success of a Kim or Hanyu or Sotnikova/Plushenko. And even if these skaters do manage to become technically as or more proficient as the legends, the fans will trivialize/criticize them - lest it risk tarnishing the legacy of their idols to even mention these newer gen skaters in the same sentence. And these skaters will constantly live in the shadow of the skaters who initially inspired them and the career long pressure of “oh well, Young/Chayeon/Haein is no Yu Na or meh - Kagiyama/Shun is no Hanyu”.