Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[yfan1]

Certainly doesn't seem like it to me

Unfortunately, I must say, this is about as relevant to me at this stage as a homeopath discussing the effects of medicine.

Anyway, in your opinion, it's the common attitude around the world that parents aren't urging their children to choose a path that will make them a decent living, and that it's easy for most people to self-fund their children into their 20's in an expensive activity like competitive skating? I believe I'm well enough researched and have seen enough to know that's false.

In my opinion, if you'd read it, people who care about all this simply won't be sending their children to figure skating to begin no matter what the age restriction, because it's so expensive and a complete dead-end, actually, and have better things to do with their hard-earned money.

But enjoy misrepresenting what's been written repeatedly.

EVERYONE cares about "stardom",

And this is what I call projection.

Let me repeat it. You know nothing about this sport in Asia.

Okay so if your goal is to reduce the prospective expenditures/expenses for these kids/parents to get to the Olympics then we should reduce the weighting of PCS instead of reducing the weighting of TES/amount of quads. Because almost every skater takes multiple years (at least 3-4 senior seasons) for their PCS to develop to a point where they can compete at the highest levels - and the only way they can fast track to better results is by having the technical goods that bump up their base value. The very existence PCS only disadvantages these up and coming Olympic hopeful skaters and forces them to spend more years and more seasons developing their artistry — much to the chagrin of their debt riddled parents/team hoping for a flash in the pan Lipinski or Baiul or Scherbackova who retires in their teens after reaching the echelon of the sport.

Right? Let's remove skating skills, because it takes ice time and even special coaching to develop at the topmost levels, and remove performance/composition because it takes dance class, and consultations with specialised choreographers from dance.

People won't argue in the favour of that, because skating is an "art" - which no one in their right mind really believes. It's considered a third tier performance art at best, among serious artists.

 

[gkelly]

Okay so if your goal is to reduce the prospective expenditures/expenses for these kids/parents to get to the Olympics then we should reduce the weighting of PCS instead of reducing the weighting of TES/amount of quads. Because almost every skater takes multiple years (at least 3-4 senior seasons) for their PCS to develop to a point where they can compete at the highest levels - and the only way they can fast track to better results is by having the technical goods that bump up their base value.

I know you're being facetious, but...

Far more skaters quit, or reevaluate their skating goals, when it becomes clear that they're never going to master triple jumps than because they haven't achieved elite-senior-level program components.

At least they can have a hope that the components can keep improving if they put in the work.

Is the goal to severely thin the women's ranks by novice level so that only the teen jumpers remain, let those kids have a better chance of elite competition while they're still kids, and then let them retire at 18, with anyone who's left competing into their twenties struggling to keep up with jump content they can no longer manage (if they ever could)?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I know you're being facetious, but...

Far more skaters quit, or reevaluate their skating goals, when it becomes clear that they're never going to master triple jumps than because they haven't achieved elite-senior-level program components.

At least they can have a hope that the components can keep improving if they put in the work.

Is the goal to severely thin the women's ranks by novice level so that only the teen jumpers remain, let those kids have a better chance of elite competition while they're still kids, and then let them retire at 18, with anyone who's left competing into their twenties struggling to keep up with jump content they can no longer manage (if they ever could)?

Hah indeed, I was being facetious. Because of the absurd premise that age limits being increased is a bad thing because it compels skaters to invest more time and money into their careers. So we should lower them out of pity for their poor parents who want their kid to go to the Olympics faster.

Agreed that it’s far more of a grind to gain competitive PCS over time and very few are late bloomers. And once skaters start grow they are facing a battle of losing triple triples that were once easy for them, so they try to achieve success as fast as they can. You don’t get many comebacks like Tuktamysheva or Liu.

A better argument for lower age ranges is that the best skaters should get to compete regardless of their age (though this does come at the expense of potential chronic or career ending injuries to young skaters’ bodies if they push too hard to get the tech needed to beat more seasoned skaters with higher PCS). But being concerned that age limits should be lowered to relieve parents of 4 years of expenses letting their kids get that Olympic experience at 15 and then duck out before it starts getting expensive (as if four years is gonna make such a diff after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars already)? That’s ridiculous.

 

[Isk]

I thought 2010-11 had great programs (Kim's LP, Kostner's LP, Csizny's LP, Asada's LP earlier in the season) - and I appreciated the rule changes from the quad before it, but I didn't think anyone skated amazingly that season (very clearly post-Olympics season), and it had the worst world champion since the inception of CoP scoring until then (or maybe Slutskaya in 2005 was, IDK).

2012 was even more watered down, and I really only liked Suzuki's programs, even if I thought Kostner was a great champion that year (and probably showed the greatest fluency in her skating skill repertoire that year with her step sequences).

2013 had Kim's legendary LP, and the other top 3 + Murakami showed great qualities. Then the season after that we had Kim doing her best dance choreography in the step sequence for the LP, and Asada's own legendary SP + her most difficult LP content since 2007-08 season.

2007-10 was just those skaters being able to breathe better in the programs, perform like 6.0 skaters under new rules. It would have been better if there weren't that fourth spin for the first two seasons, or the ridiculous spiral level rules, or the awful UR call system.

I wouldn't say there was a "quality" drop in men's after 2016. I thought all of the top 5 + Brown + Vasilijevs gave one if not two great performances at 2017 worlds - and then there were skaters like Misha Ge and Kolyada. Nathan didn't do too well at those worlds, but his programs next season were better (even if he steadily watered them down as the season progressed). The technical boundaries were pushed, and I was happy about it. Hanyu's LP was legendary there.

That quad's weakest seasons for men IMO were 2014-15 and 2017-18 - which is typical, because skaters are tired post-Olympics, and play it safe during it. It was after that which I thought it all went to the dogs.

I treated myself to rewatching 2011 women's FS from 2011, the last two flights, skipping Mae Berenice. Yeah, it was bit stronger than the following year. Ladies are quite pleasant to watch, but with current experience I can see that Ksenia didn't skate in the knees, neither did Sarah Haecken, these ladies were quite slow, although had nice lines and in general paid attention to choreography and style. Yeah, I really liked that program from Alyssa. But I have to say, there is everyone else, and there is Mao. She was slaughtered for flutz and UR, but she lifts so well on the jumps, and the skating quality, the way she just goes across the length of the rink on one foot doing steps (a StSq level feature back then) and then does the rest of StSq at the shorter board in small circles because she ran out of space, and then fits the spiral with no speed just like it's nothing at the very end, every spin done to tremolo, the flow of the program. I don't think I can agree with her getting about the same as Ksenia and less than Alyona in PCS. It was a period of her low, technically it's not great, and maybe live it looked not as good as in recording... The 2012 version was not the same. But this is the stuff I tent to rewatch, you know. So far no desire to rewatch quads by Shasha Trusova or Anechka.

 

[Quadrifecta]

My answer is no, coming from a new fan.
Quads do not limit artistry, so why put emphasis on quads and not triples or even doubles? They're still jumps.
Regarding PCS, probably they should be increased. However, the notion of artistry is misunderstood; there's no guideline for it, no matter what this sub says. Artistry is innate, it depends on the viewer's perception of the program. There are no strict rules defining who is artistic. A skater doesn't have to resemble a ballerina or a floating fairy to be artistic. Again, artistry is entirely subjective.
This is why I laugh when someone says that a skater or a group of skaters are not artistic. Yeah, that's your opinion. You don't tell me what to like and what not to like.
And having good skating skills doesn't automatically translate into artistry.

 

[Mathman]

^ I agree with the point that "quads versus artistry" is not a useful way to frame the question. Although I do think that the ISU has done a pretty good job of putting words down on paper about the esthetics of skating, I would rather look at it this way:

#1, it's a sport. So quite naturally when it comes to scoring, the emphasis is on quantifiable feats of athleticism. Like it or not -- and I don't, particularly -- this is where jumps reign. Jumps are athletically vigorous, and it is easy to come up with point values reflecting difficulty -- and even, to some extent. quality.

What else? Well, although figure skating is a sport there is also an attempt to evaluate the "components" of a program. In the current version of the IJS there are three.

Sklating skills. To me, this is not "artistry" but rather "virtuosity." Just as being a a piano virtuoso means hitting the right notes and not making too many mistakes, to get high SS marks you need to demonstrate mastery of the tools of your craft, which means edges and turns.

Composition is where esthetic considerations come in (again avoiding the word "artistry"). Presentation means -- well, presentation. Put on an entertaining show. Both Composition and Presentation have a lot to do with following musical cues, which again is not "art " so much as craft. (Skaters are not musicians, never mind composers.)

 

[Arigato]

However, the notion of artistry is misunderstood; there's no guideline for it, no matter what this sub says.

The sub doesn't formally say anything about it, per se.

Artistry is innate, it depends on the viewer's perception of the program.

Artistry isn't even innate in artists. As in painters, and those who draw or sculpt for example. They learn. They dedicate. They practice.

There are no strict rules defining who is artistic.

That's a given.

A skater doesn't have to resemble a ballerina or a floating fairy to be artistic.

No one is claiming they do.

Again, artistry is entirely subjective.

That's a given.

This is why I laugh when someone says that a skater or a group of skaters are not artistic.

I don't see what's funny. If you already realize artistry is subjective, then a person is entitled to their subjective opinion as to whether a skater or group of skaters have any artistic merit.

You don't tell me what to like and what not to like.

No one here is doing that, and I would bet my bottom dollar no one here wants you to tell them what to like either.

And having good skating skills doesn't automatically translate into artistry.

I don't see anyone saying they do.

 

[gkelly]

Regarding PCS, probably they should be increased. However, the notion of artistry is misunderstood; there's no guideline for it, no matter what this sub says.

What does "sub" mean in this sentence?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Okay so if your goal is to reduce the prospective expenditures/expenses for these kids/parents to get to the Olympics then we should reduce the weighting of PCS instead of reducing the weighting of TES/amount of quads. Because almost every skater takes multiple years (at least 3-4 senior seasons) for their PCS to develop to a point where they can compete at the highest levels

That's not true at all. The ladies field has constantly been dominated by 15 and 16 year olds, and some of the most artistically breathtaking performances have come from competitors of that age range...specifically when they compete in seniors. It never shows up in the same way at junior worlds.

 

[yfan1]

What does "sub" mean in this sentence?

subforum?

That's not true at all. The ladies field has constantly been dominated by 15 and 16 year olds, and some of the most artistically breathtaking performances have come from competitors of that age range...specifically when they compete in seniors. It never shows up in the same way at junior worlds.

OK.

Proposal:
Impose Maximum Age Limit on Figure Skating: 16 years

They can do quads.
They can do the most artistically breathtaking programs in seniors.
Then they can go to college, because they'll have no other choice but to use their parents' money in other ways.

It will also create maximum pressure on the athletes to do their level best by the time they reach 16. Best jump technique, best spins, best skating skills, best choreography - on the pain of not attaining stardom.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That's not true at all. The ladies field has constantly been dominated by 15 and 16 year olds, and some of the most artistically breathtaking performances have come from competitors of that age range...specifically when they compete in seniors. It never shows up in the same way at junior worlds.

Lol constantly dominated? If 15 and 16 year olds have done well it’s because of their technical prowess not because they are artistically developed - see Trusova, Shimada, 2006 Asada, younger Liu. Yes you have your Lipinskis and Baiuls but my point is that they become flash in the pans. Talents like Kostornaia or Lipnitskaia burn out. Sotnikova anyone?

Look at the ages of most non-Russian world medalists in recent years. Some of the best skaters like Sakamoto and Kostner and Asada deliver their best artistic skating well out of their teens.

 

[4everchan]

Artistry isn't even innate in artists. As in painters, and those who draw or sculpt for example. They learn. They dedicate. They practice.

THIS ! Thank you for saying it. As a kid, I was told : you are so talented, so gifted, so naturally musical. And it pissed me off majorly because what people implied I had been born with was not a freebie, it was WORK, hours of dedication. Yes, I most likely have some natural instincts but you cannot achieve beauty without being an extremely solid technician. Technique is the tool that will allow artistry to emerge. You can have great musical ideas but if you don't know how to technically realize them, it's useless. So in that sense, when I think of figure skating, for me, if there is only one aspect that looks like artistry, it's blade mastery. That's where I see the technical work, commitment and dedication that can translate into beautiful movement. When the blades work, the whole body can follow the music. I don't even necessarily equate flair and performing skills to artistry in figure skating.

Of course, that's just my opinion

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yes you have your Lipinskis and Baiuls but my point is that they become flash in the pans. Talents like Kostornaia or Lipnitskaia burn out.

So what if they are a flash in the pan? That's far better than never having the chance to compete when you're at you're best.

The skaters who have shown the most longevity in the sport were all competing in seniors at 15 years old, or younger.

Some of the best skaters like Sakamoto and Kostner and Asada deliver their best artistic skating well out of their teens.

They delivered great artistry during their teens. As have many others. The world should not be robbed of those performances.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So what if they are a flash in the pan? That's far better than never having the chance to compete when you're at you're best.

The skaters who have shown the most longevity in the sport were all competing in seniors at 15 years old, or younger.


They delivered great artistry during their teens. As have many others. The world should not be robbed of those performances.

Lol “robbing the world of their performances” - guess it’s more important than lifelong injuries because of trying to accelerate your tech.

And it’s absolutely false that every skater with a long career competed in seniors at 15 and younger.

Maria Butyrskaya - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Miki Ando - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Blades of Passion]

Miki Ando competed in senior worlds at 16, something she wouldn't be allowed to do now (nor her senior season after that one), and the statement was "the skaters with the most longevity". You've yet again misrepresented what has been written.

Michelle Kwan competed as a senior internationally at 13 years old. Tuktamysheva at 14. Kostner at 15. Plushenko at 14.

Lol “robbing the world of their performances” - guess it’s more important than lifelong injuries because of trying to accelerate your tech.

The tech is already being pushed in the junior field. Keeping people out of seniors does absolutely nothing to prevent injuries.

 

[yfan1]

Tuktamysheva skated at worlds a grand total of thrice, and at the Olympics zero times.

Let's ignore Kostner had zero competition in Italy.

That leaves Kwan and Plushenko? Highly confident people who had loads of money tossed at them once they started showing the goods?

It's a trivial and rather silly statement to be saying "The skaters who have shown the most longevity in the sport were all competing in seniors at 15 years old, or younger."

 

[Arigato]

They delivered great artistry during their teens. As have many others. The world should not be robbed of those performances.

The world should not be robbed. Don't you think you're laying it on a bit thick here? The world would have been robbed had Baryshnikov not escaped from Russia and come to the U.S. where people could see him dance. That's something to get upset about - not the so-called "great artistry" of kids who haven't even been alive long enough to put in some serious sweat equity much less possess "great artistry." The delusions of grandeur surrounding a mere age bracket is worrisome.

 

[yfan1]

Not to mention, for every skater below the age of 15 who showed longevity, it's likely there are several more who didn't show such longevity.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Not to mention, for every [young skater] who showed longevity, it's likely there are several more who didn't show such longevity.

You're not saying anything here. They wouldn't have shown more longevity by being kept out of Seniors. For anyone who was a "flash in the pan" at a single Olympics, they never would have competed in more than 1 Olympics, had they even managed to get there at all after being held back when they were younger.

And, no, it's not "trivial" that the people with the most longevity are the ones who were allowed to compete when they were very young. This directly shows how important it is to give people as much experience as possible and tell people "we believe in you and you deserve to be here". That's what most everyone in life needs to succeed and reach their potential. And of course the other rewards that come with obtaining success.

The world would have been robbed had Baryshnikov not escaped from Russia and come to the U.S. where people could see him dance. That's something to get upset about - not the so-called "great artistry" of kids who haven't even been alive long enough to put in some serious sweat equity much less possess "great artistry."

Why are you trying to devalue the artistry that has been show by younger people? Very strange, and historically you're dead wrong.

Michelle Kwan's Lyra Angelic is commonly cited as the height of artistry in singles skating. She would not have been allowed to compete that program with the new rules, nor her programs beforehand which were already getting 6.0's. There are countless other examples.

Stop with the ageism. Young people are full of emotion and ambition and intellect and energy. They deserve to be allowed to compete, if they want to. They deserve to be treated as equals.

 

[4everchan]

Michelle Kwan wasn't doing 3axels and quads as a pre-teen. The rules exist now for good reason.