Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[yfan1]

Buttle’s senior career was 7 seasons across two Olympic cycles. And as mentioned he only started his first full seniors season when he was 19, and obviously/understandably did not need to continue after winning the World title at 26 (and having Olympic bronze).

Don't bother.

The poster's point is: 15<19, therefore if x skater started at 15 (or 14 or 13), they had longevity. Which is true based off math. Entirely and wholly meaningless apart from that.

Buttle, btw, was a very artistic skater, despite not having gone senior at 15. If people like talking about where one may obtain life experience, maturity, ideas - well, look no further than going to college, art school, growing up, so on. Which Buttle did, before getting back to skating.

Everything else is frivolous.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Don't bother.

The poster's point is: 15<19, therefore if x skater started at 15 (or 14 or 13), they had longevity. Which is true based off math. Entirely and wholly meaningless apart from that.

Buttle, btw, was a very artistic skater, despite not having gone senior at 15. If people like talking about where one may obtain life experience, maturity, ideas - well, look no further than going to college, art school, growing up, so on. Which Buttle did, before getting back to skating.

Everything else is frivolous.

Yeah and if Buttle had stayed on till 2010 and had a career of 9 years, I’m sure BOP would have said a career of 10 years constitutes “long career”.

Also how convenient and careful of BoP to deliberately say “every male skater with a long career who won Worlds this century” leaving Stojko out of the mix - who started his 13-year senior career only at 19 … and won his third Worlds in 1997 at age 25.

 

[yfan1]

Yeah and if Buttle had stayed on till 2010 and had a career of 9 years, I’m sure BOP would have said a career of 10 years constitutes “long career”.

Also how convenient of BoP to carefully and deliberately say “every male skater who won Worlds this century” leaving Stojko out of the mix (having started his 13-year senior career at 19).

Browning too, if Wikipedia is being accurate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Browning

The situations of the 80s and now acknowledged to be different, of course, but Browning does happen to be someone who was accredited with the first ever quad, and his overall skating was excellent to go with that.

Not that I even feel "long careers" in skating are needed or desirable. IMO, it's perfectly reasonable to have goals, accomplish them (or try to), and then leave, within two cycles.

 

[yfan1]

Yup was just about to add Browning (who started seniors at 19) and Eldredge (who started his senior career at 17). But let’s not include them since they’re not “this century”. Especially lol’able when you realize there have only been 13 mens World champions this century to “prove” his point, of course, Buttle in 2008 disproving it not counting since his career wasn’t as long.

"This century" has some relevance - because of the number of quads skaters are attempting, as an example. In which case, I'd love to see how this bears out over time. I don't exactly feel the need to look at skaters who turned senior before 2018 to be making my point, and even within that, a lot depends on how they compete.

Anyway, let's end the discussion with opinions, since we all have them, from Brian Orser (since he was brought up), along with Rafael Arutunian, and Tom Zakrajsek, among many others.

An old debate about the young in figure skating heats up again: is it time to raise the minimum age for seniors? — Globetrotting by Philip Hersh

Is it time to raise the age minimum for singles figure skaters in senior international competition? Rafael Arutunian thinks so. The coach of the only two U.S. skaters to win senior World Championship medals since 2009 brought up the idea unprompted during our lengthy recent conversation at his trai

www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com

I find that I'm satisfied with being in their company.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Also, 2-time World Champ Uno was born in Dec 1997 which means he would have been age eligible starting in the 2015-2016 season - which also happened to be his first full senior season. He was 18 at his first senior Worlds, and wouldn’t have missed it under the new age rules. Save for 2015 4CC and 2014 Asian Open, he would have been age eligible for every senior competition of his career even under the new rules.

 

[yfan1]

Also, 2-time World Champ Uno was born in Dec 1997 which means he would have been age eligible starting in the 2015-2016 season - which also happened to be his first full senior season. He was 18 at his first senior Worlds, and wouldn’t have missed it under the new age rules. Save for 2015 4CC and 2014 Asian Open, he would have been age eligible for every senior competition of his career even under the new rules.

I am saddened to hear he wouldn't have been able to participate in 2014 Asian Open. I am sure the experience caused him to mature into a highly artistic skater.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Aaaaand under the new rules Evan Lysacek (born June 1985) would have still been able to compete in every senior competition of his career from his very first one (Four Continents 2003). So there is that too. Oh, BOP.

While him and Buttle both had 7 full senior season, technically Buttle’s senior career (starting with Nebelhorn on Sep 2000 to March 2008) was slightly longer than Lysacek’s senior career (from Feb 2003 to Feb 2010).

 

[yfan1]

Keep in mind that Nathan Chen only did 6 senior seasons - yet was a three time WC and once an OGM - so that's a significant period not even being counted there.

If only he'd participated in 2014 Asian Open he'd have been an artist, perhaps.

 

[TallyT]

Keep in mind that Nathan Chen only did 6 senior seasons - yet was a three time WC and once an OGM - so that's a significant period not even being counted there.

Genuinely confused, what on earth has this to do with the stated topic???

(And from what I have read from his fans, at least part of the reason he left was his hips were shot and needed too much surgery. Which may be wrong and if so feel free to correct. If true, it may also actually be on topic, as it doesn't bolster the idea that quads are not damaging.)

 

[yfan1]

Genuinely confused, what on earth has this to do with the stated topic???

It's to do with the poster's criteria they set for counting skaters "EVERY male world champion this century who had a long career was able to start getting senior experience earlier than they'd now be allowed."

I agree he can be used to bolster the idea of the thread as well as the age criteria - not oppose them.

 

[Arigato]

Yes this is a sport, and also a performance art, and people do better - in pretty much every aspect of life - when they directly get to experience being among the most successful peers in their field and being told "you deserve to work at the highest level and we believe in you to be a champion". A seat at the table. The grownup table. Not the kiddie table.

THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS TO BELIEVE IN YOU IS YOU. Without that, you will never be anything - no matter how many people blow sunshine up your butt.

 

[Blades of Passion]

if Buttle had stayed on till 2010 and had a career of 9 years, I’m sure BOP would have said a career of 10 years constitutes “long career”.

No, the statement simply would have reflected him being the outlier. But he didn't stay in for 9+ years, so it's not relevant, and it doesn't change the point of how beneficial it has been for the vast majority of people to compete in seniors from a younger age.

Save for 2015 4CC and 2014 Asian Open, he would have been age eligible for every senior competition of his career even under the new rules.

So? That's still competitions being missed out on and a year less of being in the mindset of trying to train as a senior.

There has yet to be any good reason presented for having the new age rule.

In actuality, this rule was created because the ISU has no way to stop Russia (and whoever else) from doping, and they don't want the publicity of Olympic non-adults being found out as dopers, so they introduced this terrible band-aid "fix" in hopes of preventing most people under 18 from being at the Olympics, while simultaneously hoping to "weed out" as many quadding women as possible, since it's harder for them to maintain the quads at 18+.

THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS TO BELIEVE IN YOU IS YOU.

Yeah sure, tell that to all of the minority/low-caste groups and women who have been denied jobs and equal treatment for nearly all of human history.

And especially for young people, they NEED direction and assurance and experience. There is a very big difference in mindset between people who are treated as fully worthwhile individuals and those who are not. "Juniors" is an inherently lower caste group. They get treated less seriously (including by coaches and choreographers - whether they admit it or not), they get less publicity, they get less endorsements, they get less crowds.

 

[Arigato]

Yeah sure, tell that to all of the minority/low-caste groups and women who have been denied jobs and equal treatment for nearly all of human history.

Red herring.

And especially for young people, they NEED direction and assurance and experience. There is a very big difference in mindset between people who are treated as fully worthwhile individuals and those who are not. "Juniors" is an inherently lower caste group. They get treated less seriously (including by coaches and choreographers - whether they admit it or not), they get less publicity, they get less endorsements, they get less crowds;

Out of the mouth of Andrew Torgashev who was 11 at the time and said of his then coach and mother, "She works me hard and I like it because unlike the people who are soft, then you don't get anywhere."

Look at your word choices: publicity, endorsements, crowds. Smacks of attention-seeking. At the risk of sounding redundant, I still think you have forgotten this is a sport. Look, when Jordan Stolz's father built the kid a track on a pond behind their house when he was really young, I don't think anyone was thinking about crowds. He just wanted to skate fast. Now he's considered the fastest long track male speed skater in the world heading into the Olympics.

This group politics thing you've got going on needs to go.

 

[yfan1]

Comparing junior skating to a 'caste system' is simply sickening.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Smacks of attention-seeking. At the risk of sounding redundant, I still think you have forgotten this is a sport.

If you don't think people compete in sports to get attention, especially figure skating (which is not just a sport, but an avenue for theatrical performance), you're totally lost.

Same for the way that there is a massive difference in how individuals develop, based upon the resources they're allowed and the way they're treated. It can be seen across every facet of life. If someone wants to be singer and you give them the lead in the school musical and put them in a class with professional singers, they are going to improve more than someone who is told "you're not ready for the big stage and we're going to make you practice these simpler songs only, in small shows".

 

[yfan1]

@TallyT Could you tell us what you know about U-19 cricket?

Everything I'm seeing indicates it's a development track for promising cricketers.

 

[TallyT]

@TallyT Could you tell us what you know about U-19 cricket?

Everything I'm seeing indicates it's a development track for promising cricketers.

Have to admit I know very little - most of what I do know about any sport that is played over here I have picked up by osmosis and listening (unwillingly) to more sports-minded and argumentative relatives over cold Christmas lunches. If it is, it's a good idea... but then remember, there is a LOT more money in cricket (another fact I picked up the same way...)

 

[yfan1]

Have to admit I know very little - most of what I do know about any sport that is played over here I have picked up by osmosis and listening (unwillingly) to more sports-minded and argumentative relatives over cold Christmas lunches. If it is, it's a good idea... but then remember, there is a LOT more money in cricket (another fact I picked up the same way...)

Not that I feel 19 is some ideal age for skaters, but it seems to me this is the equivalent of "juniors" on an international level for cricket. And I don't see so much argument about it anywhere.

Anyway, because "caste system" was brought up - an unfortunately Indian thing, my mind went to cricket, and then "there are aussies on this forum who might know more about that sport".

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Lol yes, the plight of junior figure skaters being unable to compete in senior level competitions until they are 17 being equated to women and low caste groups experiencing historical inequity and being unable to get jobs.

Takes a special type of person to make that kind of argument.

 

[Mathman]

Here's what I think (now that the issue of "quads versus artistry" has been caught up in issue of juniors versus seniors).

I don't think that there is any harm in casting juniors in the role of "developmental league." That's where you hone your technical skills with the hope, at least for the top aspirants, of advancing to the big show in a couple of years. Of course skaters at all levels also benefit from participatory and recreational opportunities and take pride in their competitive achievements at whatever level.

When you get to seniors, the rising juniors have filled out their catalogue of technical elements and are ready for the next step -- weaving it all together in a well-balanced program displaying their mastery of technical elements along with a maturing awareness of esthetic considerations..

Sounds good to me.

On the other hand, a performer like Ilia Malinin, whose programs comprise a rapid rifling thru his eye-popping tech catalogue -- that's pretty cool, too, never mind the soulful voice-over.