Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[Arigato]

If you don't think people compete in sports to get attention, especially figure skating (which is not just a sport, but an avenue for theatrical performance), you're totally lost.

Some people commit crimes to get attention. Some people pass wind in church to get attention. This continual obsession with attention-getting in sports being some kind of driving force is truly baffling.

Same for the way that there is a massive difference in how individuals develop, based upon the resources they're allowed and the way they're treated. It can be seen across every facet of life. If someone wants to be singer and you give them the lead in the school musical and put them in a class with professional singers, they are going to improve more than someone who is told "you're not ready for the big stage and we're going to make you practice these simpler songs only, in small shows".

Bruce Springsteen was told by his teacher he'd never amount to anything.
Elvis was told to go back to driving a truck.
Ed Sheeran was told he'd never make it because of the way he looked.

If only they had been given the lead in a school musical they could have become someone!

 

[Mafke]

more general debate on the question, "What is figure skating all about anyway?"

Not watching olympics at all (why do they still exist?) but watching people ooh and aah over a back flip in a program (while being a big Bonaly fan back in the day) I'll add...
The best reasons I ever read for banning them from competition (on a forum I forget the poster... Janet something?) was that skating (figures, dance, free skating) is fundamentally about fine control of horizontal rotation (with many variations). Jumps are still about horizontal rotation (in terms of the skater's body). Backflips are in a different spatial dimension and break the horizontal plane (as do some lift positions but at least the skater returns to the horizontal plane coming out of the lift).
In terms of safety, backflips aren't even that hard or dangerous for elite skaters once a skater learns how to do them but learning is more potentially dangerous and the safety concern is about lower level skaters trying them (esp unsupervised) and injuring themselves.

 

[4everchan]

Just here to chime in :

How many of you, who have voted that the number of quads shouldn't be limited to balance artistry are willing to change their vote after today's messy event (Olympics men's free program). Where was the artistry tonight ? There was just ONE skater who did have a beautifully skated program and his PCS were 87 (Cha). He is not on the podium. He only attempted two quads. (one fall) I'd rather see more skates like these than those who tried for too much and failed or ran out of gas later in the program. Our new Olympic champion, as endearing as he is, had a very empty program but 5...yes 5 quads.

 

[Blades of Passion]

5 *attempted quads. The lutz was not clean.

Quads don't "need" to be limited, the PCS need to be worth more and shouldn't be given out freely on reputation or just because people have quads or because of alleged skating skill. PCS are supposed to be mainly about artistry. Theatrical performance. Commanding the stage. Creating emotion. Movement that tells a story. Interpreting music.

There's also too much GOE given out for Quads, both in the actual GOE values themselves and the way that people are frequently cheating the rotations or not doing airy jumps but still getting high GOE.

The footwork and spin rules are a bigger detriment to the sport than the quads. Jumps take up roughly the same amount of time regardless. Doing a Quad Lutz in place of a Brian Boitano-esque Triple Lutz is the same amount of time expenditure in a program. Whereas the monstrous footwork sequences these days take up 40+ seconds, instead of being beautifully fluid pieces of movement that take between 15-25 seconds, and spins add in all kinds of unnecessary positions and rotations instead of being moments of musical interpretation where you do, like, a really nice death drop and some really nice arm variations and then move on with the program.

 

[yfan1]

There was just ONE skater who did have a beautifully skated program and his PCS were 87 (Cha).

I actually really disagree tbh. He hits an excellent ina bauer, but I really disliked this program, and I 100% felt that after the fall he was making sure to be tentative in order to land the rest of his content. It's why I'm not particularly caring about him ending up off the podium.

 

[DancingCactus]

I want one less jump and more points for non-jump elements. The guys even flubbed their triples yesterday.
It's so exhausting to see great and interesting programs and then be reminded that they have another three jumps to go, most of them not integrated into the choreo at all.

 

[Vemvane]

Just here to chime in :

How many of you, who have voted that the number of quads shouldn't be limited to balance artistry are willing to change their vote after today's messy event (Olympics men's free program). Where was the artistry tonight ? There was just ONE skater who did have a beautifully skated program and his PCS were 87 (Cha). He is not on the podium. He only attempted two quads. (one fall) I'd rather see more skates like these than those who tried for too much and failed or ran out of gas later in the program. Our new Olympic champion, as endearing as he is, had a very empty program but 5...yes 5 quads.

The men's Olympics free skate sent me off to rewatch some older Olympic free skate programmes today, as a balm of sorts. What dawned on me was how much skating time was lost when the men's free skate was shortened by thirty seconds, and what a difference that made to my impression of the programmes. I feel that there is not enough time in four minutes for the choreography (and the skaters) to breathe when they are under pressure to get so many jumping passes done, particularly when the skaters are going for quads.

I don't know yet how I feel about limiting quads per programme, but I do know that today I enjoyed the four and a half minute programmes more than most of the four minute free skates I have seen in the last while, and that enjoyment came from there being more skating performance in between the jumps than there is time for now. I don't imagine the ISU can be prevailed upon to go back to the four and a half minute free skate, given that they want to shorten it still further, but I, for my part, would be happy if they did.

 

[4everchan]

The men's Olympics free skate sent me off to rewatch some older Olympic free skate programmes today, as a balm of sorts. What dawned on me was how much skating time was lost when the men's free skate was shortened by thirty seconds, and what a difference that made to my impression of the programmes. I feel that there is not enough time in four minutes for the choreography (and the skaters) to breathe when they are under pressure to get so many jumping passes done, particularly when the skaters are going for quads.

I don't know yet how I feel about limiting quads per programme, but I do know that today I enjoyed the four and a half minute programmes more than most of the four minute free skates I have seen in the last while, and that enjoyment came from there being more skating performance in between the jumps than there is time for now. I don't imagine the ISU can be prevailed upon to go back to the four and a half minute free skate, given that they want to shorten it still further, but I, for my part, would be happy if they did.

yup.. .that's one of the issues... shortening the LP... increasing the number of quads... something had to go.. .choreography disappeared.

 

[Jennyf]

It’s not just quads though, it’s scoring in general. Because the women’s programs are not what they used to be either. There’s so little freedom in the footwork, so little time for transitions, for holding landings, spirals and edges. I don’t have a solution, and I do think the race to the most quad jumps certainly isn’t helping. But it’s a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself.

 

[Zora]

yup.. .that's one of the issues... shortening the LP... increasing the number of quads... something had to go.. .choreography disappeared

What's equally bad, they got rid of the step sequence for juniors in the free program, which makes absolutely no sense. Reduce some jumps for juniors - yes. But the step sequence? Where they could learn to be expressive and show some musicality? For me those junior programs have become unwatchable, because now it's jump, jump, spin.

 

[lariko]

Just here to chime in :

How many of you, who have voted that the number of quads shouldn't be limited to balance artistry are willing to change their vote after today's messy event (Olympics men's free program). Where was the artistry tonight ? There was just ONE skater who did have a beautifully skated program and his PCS were 87 (Cha). He is not on the podium. He only attempted two quads. (one fall) I'd rather see more skates like these than those who tried for too much and failed or ran out of gas later in the program. Our new Olympic champion, as endearing as he is, had a very empty program but 5...yes 5 quads.

Gods, no. Not willing to change my vote at all. I disliked the results only in the sense that low technical content was over-rewarded with Kagiyama. My happy place would have been if Sato, Cha, Gogolev and Gumennik were rewarded more. And Adam in the short. Imo, the problems come from over-rewarding glide and calling it artistry, not from over-rewarding beautiful jumps. I think one can't go wrong with scoring jumps high. The best guy of the night clearly wins and there is no shenanigans.

 

[4everchan]

Gods, no. Not willing to change my vote at all. I disliked the results only in the sense that low technical content was over-rewarded with Kagiyama. My happy place would have been if Sato, Cha, Gogolev and Gumennik were rewarded more. And Adam in the short. Imo, the problems come from over-rewarding glide and calling it artistry, not from over-rewarding beautiful jumps. I think one can't go wrong with scoring jumps high. The best guy of the night clearly wins and there is no shenanigans.

I have been looking at the little data provided. jumps last about 0.6 seconds (airtime) times this by 7 and you get 4.2 seconds. Let's be generous because there are combos and even call it 10 seconds. there are almost an entire 4 minutes of SKATING left. I'd like to see skaters who actually demonstrate blade control.

You don't have to like what I like... Obviously, our tastes are different... but figure skating is not about the 10 seconds of air time. It's about the contact of the blades with the ice... .with the occasional jump.

You can watch the jumping competition if that's what you enjoy but I'd prefer watching paint dry or even better, figures.

 

[Karoltyna]

Just here to chime in :

How many of you, who have voted that the number of quads shouldn't be limited to balance artistry are willing to change their vote after today's messy event (Olympics men's free program). Where was the artistry tonight ? There was just ONE skater who did have a beautifully skated program and his PCS were 87 (Cha). He is not on the podium. He only attempted two quads. (one fall) I'd rather see more skates like these than those who tried for too much and failed or ran out of gas later in the program. Our new Olympic champion, as endearing as he is, had a very empty program but 5...yes 5 quads.

I still think let them have as many quads they want, fix BV issue, make a 4 level stsq worth at least 3Lz and cut quads BV by 2 pts. They will be forced to skate the actual programs, not jumping routines.

 

[lariko]

I have been looking at the little data provided. jumps last about 0.6 seconds (airtime) times this by 7 and you get 4.2 seconds. Let's be generous because there are combos and even call it 10 seconds. there are almost an entire 4 minutes of SKATING left. I'd like to see skaters who actually demonstrate blade control.

You don't have to like what I like... Obviously, our tastes are different... but figure skating is not about the 10 seconds of air time. It's about the contact of the blades with the ice... .with the occasional jump.

You can watch the jumping competition if that's what you enjoy but I'd prefer watching paint dry or even better, figures.

You enjoy what you want, but you asked the question and I answered. After this Olympic skate of men's free my only gripe is that Kagiyama ended up on the podium, with silver. If quads were more consistently rewarded, he wouldn't have been. I would have preferred that result. So, no, I am not changing my answer. I want quads rewarded at least as high as they are now. And I love our new Olympic champion, love that it was not predicted by anyone, and he got it on pure talent and unanimously.

 

[4everchan]

You enjoy what you want, but you asked the question and I answered. After this Olympic skate of men's free my only gripe is that Kagiyama ended up on the podium, with silver. If quads were more consistently rewarded, he wouldn't have been. I would have preferred that result. So, no, I am not changing my answer. I want quads rewarded at least as high as they are now. And I love our new Olympic champion, love that it was not predicted by anyone, and he got it on pure talent and unanimously.

To Yuma's defence, he did raise the bar. He still had 4 quad attempts. 1 landed, two with step outs and one fall.
yes, we all have our preferences and that's fine. However, rewarding quads more also rewards bad quads.

However, Misha wasn't unknown. He was still the reigning vice-world champion. He was the guy with the cool combos ,pushing himself and even Ilia.
He just wasn't on anyone's radar because he had a slow start of the season. His team did well to have him peak for the Games

 

[Mathman]

For me, the men's LP at Milano did put the spotlight on the deteriorating state of men's figure skating. This was just an abominable competition, no matter whether we blame it on too many quads or on too much artistry. Congratulations to Shaidorov -- everyone else did worse than he.

I have no idea what needs to be done to fix it. I didn't vote on the poll for that reason, so I have nothing to change or to confirm.

My vote: More dancing like Gilles and Poirier free dance. More skating like Sakamoto's SP and LP in the team event.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It’s not just quads though, it’s scoring in general. Because the women’s programs are not what they used to be either. There’s so little freedom in the footwork

Yes, it's the footwork and spins. So much time is wasted in those elements, doing movement that goes against the music and makes no sense artistically or aesthetically, and the recent rule of "jump or slide out of a spin for a level" has made things even clunkier. The recent rules also made spins even worse by requiring a very specific set of features that are now needed to get a Level 4, and "jump or slide out" is one of the things they chose as a requirement for Level 4. It's horribly misguided.

The other problem is the way skaters approach programs in general now (as a result of the judging). Performance quality and body line and musicality and storytelling isn't the main thing that gets rewarded. Doing random turns on the ice as a display of "skating skill" is what everyone tries to do now. Who cares about an artistic idea and doing things that look great, just try to do twizzles or whatnot between your elements to prove what a good skater you are, regardless of how boring and nonsensical that movement is.

This also spills over into the way jumps are approached. Heaven forbid someone hold an edge and go into a jump with good body posture and build the tension of the performance, before jumping with explosive quality. No, now you need to shuffle your feet and break the body line in some way as you go into the jump, and also directly afterward, or else you "aren't doing enough" in the program. Plus, huge jumps don't get rewarded properly in the GOE, so that further incentivizes people to do these squirrely approaches and landings, instead of something majestic and impactful.

 

[DancingCactus]

I just rewatched Yagudin's programs from 2002 for the umpteenth time. Of course not everyone can have that kind of quality program all the time, but the difference in approach to footwork is just so notable. Probably why I liked Torgashev so much yesterday.

For spins I wonder if the concept of levels should not be abandoned. Why do you have to hit ugly positions like a contortionist to get levels or change position five times or do some other wonky extra move. The most important things should be speed and posture, not flexibility and hitting a new position every two seconds (I'm exaggerating). Abandon the levels and add GOE up to plus 10 or something for quality. A really fast camel spin is way more pleasing to the eye than whatever Daniel Grassl does in my opinion.

 

[Mathman]

These last few posts, to me, put a spotlight on the dilemma that the ISU faces and explains why they will never solve it. Posture and carriage, flowing lines, majestic musical climaxes -- those are the things that, more the most part, intrigued skating fans in the 6.0 days.

But wait -- I thought skater X had prettier flowing lines than skater Y, so the judges must be cheating to give Y the prize. Hence the IJS. Now we see where that has led: Here is a list of things that you get big points for. Do them and you will get big points.

 

[4everchan]

These last few posts, to me, put a spotlight on the dilemma that the ISU faces and explains why they will never solve it. Posture and carriage, flowing lines, majestic musical climaxes -- those are the things that, more the most part, intrigued skating fans in the 6.0 days.

But wait -- I thought skater X had prettier flowing lines than skater Y, so the judges must be cheating to give Y the prize. Hence the IJS. Now we see where that has led: Here is a list of things that you get big points for. Do them and you will get big points.

I think the issue would be the same with 6.0 now that the quad revolution has hit. Don't forget that there were very few quads performed under 6.0... Almost exclusively quad toes... and by only a couple skaters per championship.