My understanding of the backflip as part of it no longer getting a deduction is just that. It no longer gets a deduction. It's there to look cool, but it doesn't get GOE or count as one of the moves in the choreo sequence. It can get the crowd excited, sure. But it doesn't count for getting positive GOE.
Why are backflips so overhyped?
- Thread starter RafaelAstro
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My understanding of the backflip as part of it no longer getting a deduction is just that. It no longer gets a deduction. It's there to look cool, but it doesn't get GOE or count as one of the moves in the choreo sequence. It can get the crowd excited, sure. But it doesn't count for getting positive GOE.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2019
Do you know where I can find this video? I think that Elladj Balde may evoke the backflip in it, as himself as a Professional Figure Skater, even when he was having an "uncle" body and Triple Jumps were becoming difficult, he was still backflipping, landing on two feet but in unison with others:
https://x.com/skatefanada/status/2020996315262374040?ref_url=
Saine, the Backflip is a jump, so in my opinion it counts as a choreographic move? But, unless the skater can find a program where it fits well, it's likely to harm the GOE and the Composition score.
https://x.com/skatefanada/status/2020996315262374040?ref_url=
Saine, the Backflip is a jump, so in my opinion it counts as a choreographic move? But, unless the skater can find a program where it fits well, it's likely to harm the GOE and the Composition score.
I tried looking in the agenda for the 2024 congress to see if it would mention if it would count for the technical score. It doesn't mention it there, but this article does state it doesn't count for the TES. But it would affect how the program would be perceived artistically since the audience would react to it looking cool, so PCS if it fits.
I'll double check the archives of the congress later when I'm not on my phone for the more in-depth discussion about it.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2019
I meant counting only as a choreographic move inside a Choreographic Sequence, not separately as an Element.
By the way, I did like Rika Kihira's cartwheel in The Fire Within. It must have taken her tremendous work to make it so soft and natural.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I think a lot of people are being deceived at the use of the word choreographic here. They think it evokes only dance moves but it is actually being used as "deliberate combination of moves."
And what you get GOE credit for is the whole of your sequence of moves . The only restriction is that the moves be a legal part of the sequence. When you do a 2 Rev or greater jump that is not legal, and it is counted a a jump. The choreo sequence is judged over immediately before the 2 or more Rev jump.
I wish somebody would do a delayed single Axel in one! It looks to me like it would be legal there, without counting as a jump.
And what you get GOE credit for is the whole of your sequence of moves . The only restriction is that the moves be a legal part of the sequence. When you do a 2 Rev or greater jump that is not legal, and it is counted a a jump. The choreo sequence is judged over immediately before the 2 or more Rev jump.
I wish somebody would do a delayed single Axel in one! It looks to me like it would be legal there, without counting as a jump.
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- Joined
- Sep 23, 2020
Yes, but Rika was a lovely dancer with rich programs and for her it was an addition to choreo not a substitute to it, so to speak
Same can be said about Kevin's cartwheel, BTW.
Backflips do not get technical scores. They are not "listed elements" in the scale of values.
They can be included in choreo sequences, where they can add to the grade of execution if they enhance the sequence, according to the bullet points @dorispulaski posted above.
They can now be included in step sequences, e.g., in the short program where there is no choreo sequence. But they don't add to the technical level, so the only rewards would be in GOE or PCS.
They could also be performed as isolated or transitional moves between elements, in which case they could be rewarded in PCS if it enhances the program as a whole.
But those rewards are for each judge to determine for themselves: Did it enhance enough for me to reward in GOE and/or PCS? Did it detract enough for me to penalize? Was it irrelevant to my evaluation of the scores? YMMV.
We can ask the same questions about a number of other elements that were previously illegal or discouraged and are now popular and rewarded. Or in some cases even required (e.g., not-touching step sequences in ice dance).
For singles skating, things like knee slides/knee turns, hydroblading or cantilevers with a hand on the ice, as well as other aerial moves like "raspberry twist" or "540" jumps that skaters had been including in step sequences and choreo sequences. Cartwheels and similar moves used as "difficult entrance/exit" from spins (which can count as a level feature) as well as within sequences or as isolated moves.
Many of these moves do not involve blade-to-ice skills at all, or not primarily. Do they make programs better? Depends how the skater executes it and incorporates it into a particular program. So for PCS they would not likely help the Skating Skills component but certainly could meet Composition and Presentation criteria.
IMO some enhance, some detract, and some are meh. But the mere fact of including these moves is no longer rare or creative. Or transgressive, which in itself aside from quality used to be a positive for many fans and a negative for many judges.
All these things expand the repertoire of available moves on the ice, which can make things more exciting when skaters are able to move in a wider variety of ways on the ice. E.g., my brother-in-law was particularly taken with Aymoz's SP in the team event because of all the low-to-the-ice moves.
In pairs, we've had carry features in lifts as a way to increase the level for quite a few years now, after non-rotating lifts being illegal for decades.
In ice dance, in addition to the required side-by-side skills that would have been illegal decades ago when separations were strictly limited, there are now explicit choreographic sliding, hydroblading, spinning, lifting, and assisted jumping moves that are not individually required but teams (and solo dancers) need to do some choreographic/non-leveled elements now to earn maximum points in their free dances.
Again, do these moves make free dances more exciting? Do they detract? Depends how well they're executed, how well they're integrated into the choreography, and how each judge or each fan feels about that kind of move or about being purists to what ice dance was decades ago. We won't all agree.
They can be included in choreo sequences, where they can add to the grade of execution if they enhance the sequence, according to the bullet points @dorispulaski posted above.
They can now be included in step sequences, e.g., in the short program where there is no choreo sequence. But they don't add to the technical level, so the only rewards would be in GOE or PCS.
They could also be performed as isolated or transitional moves between elements, in which case they could be rewarded in PCS if it enhances the program as a whole.
But those rewards are for each judge to determine for themselves: Did it enhance enough for me to reward in GOE and/or PCS? Did it detract enough for me to penalize? Was it irrelevant to my evaluation of the scores? YMMV.
We can ask the same questions about a number of other elements that were previously illegal or discouraged and are now popular and rewarded. Or in some cases even required (e.g., not-touching step sequences in ice dance).
For singles skating, things like knee slides/knee turns, hydroblading or cantilevers with a hand on the ice, as well as other aerial moves like "raspberry twist" or "540" jumps that skaters had been including in step sequences and choreo sequences. Cartwheels and similar moves used as "difficult entrance/exit" from spins (which can count as a level feature) as well as within sequences or as isolated moves.
Many of these moves do not involve blade-to-ice skills at all, or not primarily. Do they make programs better? Depends how the skater executes it and incorporates it into a particular program. So for PCS they would not likely help the Skating Skills component but certainly could meet Composition and Presentation criteria.
IMO some enhance, some detract, and some are meh. But the mere fact of including these moves is no longer rare or creative. Or transgressive, which in itself aside from quality used to be a positive for many fans and a negative for many judges.
All these things expand the repertoire of available moves on the ice, which can make things more exciting when skaters are able to move in a wider variety of ways on the ice. E.g., my brother-in-law was particularly taken with Aymoz's SP in the team event because of all the low-to-the-ice moves.
In pairs, we've had carry features in lifts as a way to increase the level for quite a few years now, after non-rotating lifts being illegal for decades.
In ice dance, in addition to the required side-by-side skills that would have been illegal decades ago when separations were strictly limited, there are now explicit choreographic sliding, hydroblading, spinning, lifting, and assisted jumping moves that are not individually required but teams (and solo dancers) need to do some choreographic/non-leveled elements now to earn maximum points in their free dances.
Again, do these moves make free dances more exciting? Do they detract? Depends how well they're executed, how well they're integrated into the choreography, and how each judge or each fan feels about that kind of move or about being purists to what ice dance was decades ago. We won't all agree.
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I am thinking if it counts as one of the two required moves in the choreo sequence. In the agenda for 2024, it's listed as a somersault and not as a jump. That's how they look at it from a technical standpoint.
Like I said, I'll go back at some point to see what they said about it no longer being an illegal move. If it counts as one of the moves in the choreo sequence, then it would count for GOE. But if it doesn't, then it counts for PCS only.
So we're learning Stellato-Dudek has some internal bleeding from taking a fall doing a backflip.
She's not the first who really doesn't understand risk/reward (there's Malinin and Fa as well), but it's not entirely her fault the ISU has kind of condoned this, promoted backflips, given oxygen to skaters who perform them.
For an element that adds NOTHING to a program, she'll likely be out of the Olympics or have a very poor preparation.
I blame the ISU though for promoting the hell out of a circus trick that was banned for decades because of the needless danger it introduced. The ISU dangled the bait and some skaters took it.
Remember, women jumping quads is bad for the sport, doing backflips on a hard slippery surface is pushing the sport further.
She's not the first who really doesn't understand risk/reward (there's Malinin and Fa as well), but it's not entirely her fault the ISU has kind of condoned this, promoted backflips, given oxygen to skaters who perform them.
For an element that adds NOTHING to a program, she'll likely be out of the Olympics or have a very poor preparation.
I blame the ISU though for promoting the hell out of a circus trick that was banned for decades because of the needless danger it introduced. The ISU dangled the bait and some skaters took it.
Remember, women jumping quads is bad for the sport, doing backflips on a hard slippery surface is pushing the sport further.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2020
Here you go
I found it on YouTube but it is geoblocked. A quick trip to Canada, I guess?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3lfyEQK-K4
I'm pretty sure (but not 100%) it can count as one of the official moves in the ChSq. Even if it didn't, that would only affect whether the sequence counts at all (if there are at least 2 connected moves) or not (if there is only 1 move that counts).
As far as GOE in the sequence goes, that looks at the quality of the whole sequence, not just individual moves. E.g., if there's a twizzle within the sequence, between the moves that count toward qualifying it as a ChSq, if it's well done, enhances the music, enhances the theme, it will help the GOE for the sequence. If not, it can hurt the GOE. Even though a twizzle would not count as one of the 2 moves to qualify the sequence. Same for any other transitional move within the sequence or for a 3rd or 6th move that would count to qualify it but isn't needed after it already met the threshold of 2.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2025
Unfortunately it is geoblocked, but I can see from the picture it is a backflip from free program from team event? In that case I have to agree with what @Blades of Passion said:
Ilia Malinin backflip... but land on one skate 🤯
Ilia Malinin ran it back on the backflip from his first run, and upstaged himself by landing on one skate en route to clinching the gold medal for Team USA i...youtube.com
I hope this is not geoblocked for you.
Ilia had a little bit of a running edge there, meaning he doesn't come to a full stop on landing, but his free leg is hanging rather low and his posture is kind of hunched, he doesn't really look like he has that much control over his limbs. That half a second of glide after a backflip doesn't make the whole thing look better, to be honest.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2018
I find backflips on the ice to be almost wholly unnecessary. They never seem to go with the choreography, and to me often bring the program to a standstill. I think occasional fans are impressed by them. Every social media post that shows Ilia doing them is also flooded with comments about Surya did it first. I don't care for it in either skater. I didn't mind Scott Hamilton's.
If it counts for GOE, then it counts for the TES since that's what GOE counts for. That's what I want to look into later when I'm not on my phone since my understanding was that it doesn't count for TES, but then it's being argued about how it counts for GOE which is in the TES. If it counts as one of the moves for the choreo sequence, then it counts for TES. So when my understanding, and that from the articles about the backflip, was that it didn't count as part of the technical score, then it shouldn't count for GOE or as a move in the choreo sequence in my opinion.
I think it is worth more in PCS than TES since it gets audience reactions. As long as it does, then it'll be worth it to the skaters to include it whether they're good quality or not.
I'm sure whoever said it doesn't count toward the tech score meant that it doesn't get a base value, not that it is not considered in the GOE IF it is part of an element. If it is part of an element (StSq or ChSt), then it is considered in the GOE and contributes to the TES through that GOE. If it is just a transitional move not within an element, then it does not.
Exactly the same as a spread eagle or split jump or knee slide.
There's no such thing as being part of an element and being explicitly ignored for GOE of that element.
Yes, very true.
Yeah I thought the one foot landing was an error.
I still don't think it adds to the TES. I think the argument was over the backflip being part of the choreo sequence and adding difficulty to a technical element vs sitting on the ice waving arms around. That's where being one of the allowed moves would fit in.
I think I've gotten into backflips more than I actually care about them, lol. I'm sure I'll get excited if I see one live in competition even if I think I don't care much about them, so I think I'll leave it there.
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2017
Kevin's cartwheel is an aerial cartwheel, does not touch the ice. And his is so good, because he was a baton twirling champion.Yes, but Rika was a lovely dancer with rich programs and for her it was an addition to choreo not a substitute to it, so to speak
Same can be said about Kevin's cartwheel, BTW.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
All choreo sequences get the same base value, if they are judged to be legal choreo sequences.
There are only two possible base values for it: 0 (no element) and 3.0 for the men's free skate.
Any of the six bullets you get credit for from a judge adds to that judge's assessment of GOE. Score for the element = Base + av. GOE for all judges , with the high & low dropped out, times a scaling factor (Ilia had three 5s, four 4's, and two threes). (If I am remembering correctly)
The GOE is then added to the TES, which stands for Technical Element Score. In the men's FS, the base is 3.0 points. Ilia got 2.07 in GOE, which the highest for the 5 guys in the Olympic team event. He got 5.07 total for it
Clearly, the judges were impressed.
Shun got five 2's, three 3's, and one 1, for a total GOE of 1.14. He got 4.14.
There are only two possible base values for it: 0 (no element) and 3.0 for the men's free skate.
Any of the six bullets you get credit for from a judge adds to that judge's assessment of GOE. Score for the element = Base + av. GOE for all judges , with the high & low dropped out, times a scaling factor (Ilia had three 5s, four 4's, and two threes). (If I am remembering correctly)
The GOE is then added to the TES, which stands for Technical Element Score. In the men's FS, the base is 3.0 points. Ilia got 2.07 in GOE, which the highest for the 5 guys in the Olympic team event. He got 5.07 total for it
Clearly, the judges were impressed.
Shun got five 2's, three 3's, and one 1, for a total GOE of 1.14. He got 4.14.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
I don't think the backflip isreally worth it. Apparently that is where I read caused Deanna Stellato's accident/ injury. Fortunately she is skating but I am concerened.
