Are we watching skating… or just our faves?

[4everchan]

I have been working on this for 30 years with only glacial progress. If I watch really, really closely I can distinguish an Axel from the rest, and also a Lutz if the skater uses the long approach technique. Now, with so many men doing quads with great ease, assurance and flow, I am faced with the new problem of distinguishing a quad from a triple.

Oh well.

I am sure you can ID a loop as well . just don't call it a rittberger

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I have been working on this for 30 years with only glacial progress. If I watch really, really closely I can distinguish an Axel from the rest, and also a Lutz if the skater uses the long approach technique. Now, with so many men doing quads with great ease, assurance and flow, I am faced with the new problem of distinguishing a quad from a triple.

Oh well.

Regarding the distinction between a Quadruple and a Triple, I think that some people get more images per second and it helps, and above all, a faster data treatment, but indeed at first sight, I only have clues not precise images, often it's different enough, but with some skaters, it's harder to tell (there's also the influence of expectation). I admit that I have a slow eye.
But regarding the distinction between some jumps, I think that to learn it properly, one must watch jumps done with a good take off. Watching a Saltoe called either a Toe Loop or a Salchow depending on the announced layout, I'm sure does great harm to the learner. The same goes for Lips, Flutzes, Flootzes... and poor take-offs with prerotation and blade assist... and one cannot rely on Grades of Execution to know which to watch to learn. So You Want To Watch Figure Skating had a great library of GIFs but the new administrator has taken them down. GoldenSkate has a wealth of resources, so in fact this one may be here?
And of course, there are the ISU tutorials but it's not always easy to transpose it into watching a competitive program, here's the Toe Loop:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Here's the Salchow:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Also, if you want to have an example of all Quadruple jumps, a bit underrotated (not to an eyesore!) and not the most beautiful take-offs on Earth but really correct, even good, skated in a same program by the same skater, you can watch Ilia Malinin's 2025 Grand Prix Final Free Skating, in bonus you'll have a really nice Euler which is a rarity. Of course you won't have all possible angles but it may help?

 

[MalAssada]

Sounds from the previous comments that my approach is quite different than most, which is probably just my AuDHD showing itself.

I watch skating, but I want to watch good skating. I find it very frustrating and difficult to engage when skaters fail to perform their elements, which is why for the last quad or so I found myself only watching the final 2 groups or so of the competition. This season I actually started watching a bit more, and so my new MO is to find the first skater in skater order that interests me, then watch the rest. I really admire those of you who watch the entire thing, and across all disciplines! My favourite competition is the GPF precisely because of the combination of short length + high level.

Favourites come and go. They aren't necessarily the ones who win the most (Medvedeva's winning streak actually had me stop watch skating as I couldn't and still can't understand those who go on and on about her artistry, and knowing the winner ahead of time took out all the fun for me). But they all have something interesting. It could be programs, it could be skills, and sometimes they're just overall great. I don't consider myself a stan of any skater (I'm actually seriously considering changing my profile picture after Yulia's positioning on the Ukraine war, as I went from liking her skating to simply disliking her as a whole). I find liking a whole bunch easier when it comes to injuries/retirements, as much as I will miss them, I'm sure I'll like others too.

As for the fans... Frankly, the ISU doesn't make it easy to like the sport. I can't think of a rule change from the past couple quads I liked, other than the increased age for seniors, which actually surprised me as I was initially against it. There seems to be no effort to actually improve judging, and often it feels like the changes proposed make it easier to manipulate results. Why are corrupt judges getting to get back to judging at the frigging Olympics? Why isn't no one doing anything about clear under rotations being called clear? The entire PCS nonsense? So I'm not surprised at all the nitpicking in the forums. I actually quite enjoy a good discussion, and often find myself agreeing to others's point of view after disagreeing with them, even if years later.

The biggest change I saw since I joined GS and watching figure skating, at the start of the 2014-2015 season, was the tone. Maybe my English simply wasn't that great back then, but it felt a lot more respectiful. I joined to follow the incoming wave of talented Russian juniors (IIRC, the thread title was "Russian youngesters are impressive!" which was later renamed) but still enjoyed skaters from around the globe. Now it feels like if you like Russian women, you must find everyone else so bad it's not even worth watching international competitions. Or, if you aren't particularly fond of the Russian style, everyone in Russia must be a massive cheater and it's much better they never grace competitions again. Because of that, I find myself becoming more and more of a reader than a forum participant seeing as I simply don't feel like getting insults thrown at me.

Whew, rather long. Sorry for that, brevity was never a quality of mine.

 

[Arigato]

Still, that is far, far, far better than to sweep the problem under the rug and pretend that it doesn't exist.

Defaming people may be okay with you, but it is not okay with me.

 

[Mathman]

^ The first sentence of post #21 above seemed to be advancing the view that guarding the popularity of the sport of figure skating is more important than protecting vulnerable children from abuse. No, it is not. (Sorry if I read your post wrong.)

 

[elektra blue]

I couldn't find any Cthulhu tissue box covers (and why someone hasn't thought of marketing them I do not know! I would buy one) but I did find a Godzilla (who is Japanese! plus point) which I now think I want...

and there are LOTS of plush (fluffy or not) Godzillas!

i see we're getting somewhere here...now who between you too has a 3D printer? (10 year sfrom now, when we'll be thinking about our genius business idea we'll brag that no one was drunk that day, we're just naturals)

 

[Arigato]

^ The first sentence of post #21 above seemed to be advancing the view that guarding the popularity of the sport of figure skating is more important than protecting vulnerable children from abuse. No, it is not. (Sorry if I read your post wrong.)

As if I would suggest something so utterly absurd. And in the future, I'd appreciate a quote of my post when replying - especially when it's something this important.

 

[Anna K.]

Figure skating fandom has always had favorites, but lately I noticed:

Every score = a personal attack
Every critique = “hater behavior”
Every competition = stan war

Not just on the forum, but across social media.

Yes, I noticed, too. It's been going on for a while. It doesn't affect just figure skating comments. Reasonable discussion is vanishing. Meaningful conversation is vanishing from the communication culture across the media. Why so? There are reasons, factors, etc. but they are all off-topic
So, keeping aside the factors that we can't influence, what can be done to have a nice figure skating conversation anyway? Apparently, leaving out politics and sensitive subjects is very little help when the conversation culture itself significantly radicalizes.

As an individual, I follow my own recipe. I ignore a lot and scroll a lot. Plain bashing leads nowhere; if I suspect that, I'm out of the conversation. Does it mean that I hold back my opinion? Sometimes, no; it's already been published and there's no point to repeat. Sometimes, yes; but I don't fret. I can save it for a better conversation.
So, my answer to changing times and morals is: I have my personal quality standards for an online conversation and I'm looking for people who have good quality standards for their conversation (and I keep returning to the Goldenskate forum because I can find a good bunch of such people here ). That's about it.

So, this is where I stand; I guess that this is a pretty radical point of view
And this is how the bulleted list looks to me:

• Are we judging performances… or defending our favorites no matter what?
• Has stan culture made discussions more fun—or completely exhausting?
• Do certain skaters get a free pass while others get picked apart?
• Have you ever held back an opinion because you didn’t want the backlash?
• Is it even possible to be both a fan and objective anymore?

• Are we judging performances… or defending our favorites no matter what?

Actually, both can go overboard; there can be over-judging as well as over-protecting that can ruin the quality of the conversation. I watch out for red flags in both cases.

• Has stan culture made discussions more fun—or completely exhausting?

Stan culture implies that there is no discussion. It's radical. You are only supposed to agree. For me, it means that I do not engage in discussion with stans - or, only discuss subjects not related to their stanning.

• Do certain skaters get a free pass while others get picked apart?

It is indeed a red flag for a poor quality conversation.

• Have you ever held back an opinion because you didn’t want the backlash?

I'm not a person who cares about backlash. If I think it's worth saying, I say it. Well, there have been occasions when I don't bother coming back to read replies though
However, I've been holding back from starting topics in Goldenskate forum. I admit that

• Is it even possible to be both a fan and objective anymore?

Everything is possible but there is this one thing... If you believe that your opinion is super objective, then why do you want to hear other people's opinions? I bet that you don't That's why posters who insist "I'm objective" instantly earn a red flag from me while the ones who say "oh, I'm so biased" get the green one. If nothing else, it serves as an honest bias warning for me for not to engage in a discussion about their stan object.
But, of course, I always give it a second thought (two or three times before I finally block the poster )

OK, too long post already.

 

[Mathman]

Yes, I noticed, too. It's been going on for a while. It doesn't affect just figure skating comments. Reasonable discussion is vanishing. Meaningful conversation is vanishing from the communication culture across the media. Why so?

I wonder. What I womder about is whether this is really a new/worsening problem, or if it has always been this way.

Humans are tribal animals. There is my tribe and the Others. My Tribe's guiding motto is, "The only good Other is a dead Other," and off we go.

The Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire was almost torn asunder by gang wars, riots, and assassinations between the Blues and the Greens. These were the colors of two rival chariot racing clubs.

Infant psychologist have conducted studies along these lines. Take two groups of 8 month old babies and give one group Cheerios and the other group Baby Puffs. Before long, you've got two tribes. Now you present to a test subject a scenario where an adult seems to be treating a baby unkindly. If the test subject is a Cheerios eater and the victim is also a Cheerios eater, the test subject gets upset. If the test subject is a Cheerios Eater and the victim is a Baby Puffs eater, the test subject has no reaction-- it's as if they are saying, hey, you deserved it, you Baby Puffs eater, you.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

A complicated topic. I think each person makes their own choices about which online conversations to engage in and which to avoid. I find myself posting mostly in the Fan Fests, because it is much more positive there, especially if you have some diehard favorites, which I certainly do.

I will watch any program at least once, and if I strongly dislike it I will skip it, or parts of it, at future competitions. (There's also programs I'll keep watching all the way through no matter how the jumps are going; comes down to personal taste). I don't watch very much skating as it happens; I usually wait for the replay so I can fast forward when I choose. I am so glad to have Peacock because I can barely stand NBC's chopping up of events and the excessive commentary, treating the audience like we're unintelligent ("This is what's in the score box; This is what grade of execution means; These are the required elements.") My desire is to watch everyone and appreciate the sport of figure skating itself. I do not expect to convert anyone else to watching full streams unless they choose to do so independently. A full stream is a big time commitment, even if you stick to one discipline. For me, I like all the disciplines, so it's hard to fit everything in with the Peacock time constraints, but I do my best.

Each person decides whether they want to focus on the positive or the negative in their figure skating viewing and subsequent online posting. So I think the fan reactions will continue to be as varied as the individual fans.

 

[frompolandwithlove]

Be honest—are we here for the sport… or just our skater?

I don't have "my" skater. I have a bunch of skaters I really like, which translates to: "I'm willing to watch very low quality livestream of a random competition just to see how skater X performed" or "I'm willing to buy a train ticket, book a room and travel to another city for competitions to watch them live". If it's far away or expensive, only *multiple* withdrawals will stop me; if it's free/cheap and near by, no withdrawals will stop me, I'm going even if I don't know anyone. Paying for livestream is where I draw the line, btw. If ISU ever decides to make me pay for watching, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be watching anymore. Sometimes, rarely, I have skaters that I really don't like to the point that I don't even want to watch events with them present - it's rarely about skaters themselves tho. But overall, I watch for the sport itself, from 1st competitor to the very last one. Sometimes the most interesting ones are in the first group. Would be a shame to miss them.

Figure skating fandom has always had favorites, but lately I noticed:

Every score = a personal attack
Every critique = “hater behavior”
Every competition = stan war

Define "lately". My mind goes straight to 2014 - ask fans of Yuna Kim how they feel about Olympic silver and I'm sure you'd get some very emotional answers - and we're talking 12 Years ago. Go read comments under Chen's performances from ~2018-2019 - do they count as stan war? Not to mention the Russian ladies up to 2022. I'm sure there are more examples, but I'm a relatively new fan and even I can name a few intense fandoms. Maybe it's even slightly easier now than it used to be, I don't know. After all we don't have Yuzuru Hanyu/Yuna Kim/Daisuke Takahashi/Russian ladies level fandoms yet.

Are we judging performances… or defending our favorites no matter what?

Well if someone has arguments, I don't see anything wrong with defending favorites. If there are no arguments, only emotions, then of course it's a waste of time to even try to argue. I think it's the hardest to stick to facts with PCS, because the rules are so vague. I don't know what the "no matter what" bit means tho.

Has stan culture made discussions more fun—or completely exhausting?

Honestly impossible, because stans of one skater don't care about rules, fairness etc, only about their skater of choice.

Do certain skaters get a free pass while others get picked apart?

Of course. During the Olympics one commentator after a good skate said something along the lines of "the judges can't go overboard [with PCS] because it's still the first group, but it was great skate" and it made me so angry. If we are saying out loud that points are pre-awarded to a degree and based on assumptions and not on what happens on the ice, then how fair the system really is? I'd say - not very fair. And fans tend to pick apart skaters that don't get picked apart by judges.

Have you ever held back an opinion because you didn’t want the backlash?

Not the backlash, but I definitely don't want to have the same conversation over and over and over again. Some issues seem to impossible to resolve.

Is it even possible to be both a fan and objective anymore?

The thing is, I don't HAVE to be objective as a fan. In an ideal world the judges are the objective ones and I get to love my favorite performances with no second thoughts about "did they judge him with the same precision as any other skater?". I'm fine with great skates not winning, I'm not fine with judges not following their own rulebook equally across all groups.

So what’s the balance? Can we love our faves AND love the sport as a whole?

Of course. Favorites retire early. Gotta stick around to keep an eye on new ones.

As always with topics like that I'm going to say the main problem is subjectivity integrated in the rulebook. And if the underlying question is "can't we all just accept that judges know best, accept the scores and move on?", then the answer is probably no, we can't, because figure skating has a bad history of judges not following their own rulebook. They trained us to not believe their judgement. And rebuilding trust takes time.

 

[Mathman]

Define "lately". My mind goes straight to 2014 - ask fans of Yuna Kim how they feel about Olympic silver and I'm sure you'd get some very emotional answers...

My biggest shock was the "fan" reaction to the rivalry between Yuna Kim ("'lip-jumper") and Mao Asada ("flutzer") around 2007-2008. Many, many posts brought up atrocities of World War II and similar non-skating issues. These were intertwined with posts about who was cute and who was ugly, etc.

 

[Anna K.]

Infant psychologist have conducted studies

What an amateur.

When Freud wrote his Beyond the Pleasure Principle, he conducted studies in psychology of amoebas. Can you beat that? He didn't mention tribalism as he had different ideas and hence didn't bother to project it on explore it in amoebas, but think about it. That's how you found theories about driving forces of everything living!

 

[TallyT]

These were intertwined with posts about who was cute and who was ugly, etc.

These are thankfully out of fashion now, but I still stand by what I said years ago, that even the most scintillating skater would have far less chance of being a favourite with fans and the public alike if they looked like Worzel Gummidge. The art and entertainment side of figure skating matters, and with it comes the sort of fandom that focuses on individuals as much as than skill sets.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

These are thankfully out of fashion now, but I still stand by what I said years ago, that even the most scintillating skater would have far less chance of being a favourite with fans and the public alike if they looked like Worzel Gummidge. The art and entertainment side of figure skating matters, and with it comes the sort of fandom that focuses on individuals as much as than skill sets.

Fortunately, in that respect, there are many tastes. It has to be said though, that some are more mainstream than others.

 

[TontoK]

My biggest shock was the "fan" reaction to the rivalry between Yuna Kim ("'lip-jumper") and Mao Asada ("flutzer") around 2007-2008. Many, many posts brought up atrocities of World War II and similar non-skating issues. These were intertwined with posts about who was cute and who was ugly, etc.

That was an insufferable era of skating fandom. That German word - schadenfreude - I definitely experienced during that Olympics. Not for either of the two skaters - each of them was lovely and deserved better from the fandom. But for their horrible never-stop-squabbling fans.

I wonder if there is some segment of the fandom that felt the same when neither Ilia nor Yuma won the gold in Milano... although the fan rivalry there is NOTHING like the Yuna/Mao wars. I think it has been more of "they're both great, but I prefer..."

 

[el henry]

From my POV, overall fandom does not depend on knowledge.

My other sporting fandom is football. I could not tell you Cover One from Cover Two, the A Gap from the B Gap, or why any ref calls any particular penalty. I still love to watch.

Same with skating. I can't tell flutzes, lips, pre post or over the moon rotations, and I still love to watch the sport of skating.

I think it's great when fans do want to learn, but I don't think it's a prerequisite for fave versus sport fandom.

 

[Mathman]

What an amateur.

To me, such studies (of infant social development) are interesting because of the "nature versus nurture" dichotomy. As the song from the musical "South Pacific" puts it, "You have to be carefully taught... to hate all the people your relatives hate, you have to be carefully taught."

Or... is there some kind of natural predisposition in our species, the result of natural selection of groups as well as individuals, for young children to learn this kind of lesson with exceptional acuity?

 

[4everchan]

From my POV, overall fandom does not depend on knowledge.

My other sporting fandom is football. I could not tell you Cover One from Cover Two, the A Gap from the B Gap, or why any ref calls any particular penalty. I still love to watch.

Same with skating. I can't tell flutzes, lips, pre post or over the moon rotations, and I still love to watch the sport of skating.

I think it's great when fans do want to learn, but I don't think it's a prerequisite for fave versus sport fandom.

Well.. sometimes, I don't know all the rules but still like watching.. for instance rugby (I am okay with sevens but the bigger teams, I don't know the rules). Of course, the guys are worth the watch. but, really, the difference is that though I don't know all the rules, it's pretty obvious when a team scores and how the scores add up... not the case for figure skating . So that's the main reason for knowledge needed for developing a better/wider fandom for figure skating. Either make the scoring easier to follow with judging more convincing or educate the fans so they can still appreciate what's being done on the ice whether or not it brings big scores

 

[Mathman]

These are thankfully out of fashion now, but I still stand by what I said years ago, that even the most scintillating skater would have far less chance of being a favourite with fans and the public alike if they looked like Worzel Gummidge.

True, figure skating is a pretty sport and pretty people have an advantage. Although... any average-looking person can be glamorous if they are presented that way (as for example, Hollywood movie stars).

What is especially odious is when someone doesn't like a skater for whatever reason, then takes it upon himself to toss in -- "and besides that, he's ugly and his ears stick out."