Is nostalgia shaping how we view figure skating? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Is nostalgia shaping how we view figure skating?

For me, what matters is the singing. In ballet, ... it is the demonstration of mastery of the appropriate skills.
All of those are in service of expression.

Funnily, your comments remind me of the history of ballet. Noverre (and people like Marie Salle) criticised ballet in its earlier forms to merely exist decoratively in the narrative as a display of skill and virtuosity, and not for self-expression. The dancing itself used to not carry the narrative. It's through critics like him we understand ballet in its current form.

This is why I don't care for skating before the late 80s. Music existed in service of the skating. Skating largely didn't exist in service of the music, with few exceptions.

Sadly, it seems we are going back to the form of 'virtuosic display that has little to do with music' when it comes to skating nowadays.
 
Last edited:
This is interesting.
I have seen many posts about being sick of "storytelling" and "character" in figure skating and they all come from the same generation of followers. (I have made up my mind: I will use the word "follower" instead of "fan". Not that I really care but still :biggrin:)
This is interesting because the complaint is not about something that I would describe as "storytelling" or "character" myself. It's about something that I would describe as "bad theatrics".

I only started following figure skating after IJS and I only started following regularly after ISU launched regular YouTube streams, which is about the last 5 years or so. And I don't remember ever seeing a Chaplin program with a mock cane or a Sherlock program with a mock pipe & looking glass. Well, it could be that the programs simply were not memorable or I missed them somehow but still... Could you please bring up some example videos of bad theatrics (sorry, I'll use my description :biggrin:) that have shaped your nostalgic view on figure skating?
 
I agree. Moving across the ice is the main thing. That's the glory of figure skating -- using your blades to move swiftly and gracefully across an almost frictional surface. This is what no other sport/art form can offer.



I guess I'm just not a story-telling sort of guy. For me, reading a book is more satisfying. Plus, the "stories" told by most ballets are pretty silly. An evil magician transform some ladies into swans. OK.

A toy Nutcracker comes to life.

Same with Opera. One waggish critic famously offered this definition of operetta: An operetta is a musical production whose plot is not quite silly enough for it to be called an opera. For me, what matters is the singing. In ballet, , as in figure skating, it is the demonstration of mastery of the appropriate skills. Musical compositions? It sounds good. :)
I must say, big jumps were my initial motivation into Ballet and the Dance Theatre of Harlem when I had the occasion of having a glimpse of their dancers' jumps on French TV, impressed me even more than the Paris Opera Ballet had, I wanted to jump like them!
May I say that my interest changed with age? With Leonid Sarafanov you had quite a safe bet by the way, carriage, unreal balloon, deport and all.

Regarding moving on the ice, there WAS a Ballerina at the Bolshoi in the early 1990s, alas the video seems to have been removed since and didn't even mention her name which I forgot... In the Giselle Pas de Deux paysan she was literally flying on the stage. In 1992 with her BF they got a double job offer from an US Ballet (which I don't remember!) but his temper made him fire by several ballet and she resorted to coaching.

The over layer of a Ballet story has to be exceedingly simple and, let's say it, often silly. But the underlaying meaning can be quite deeper and the best dancers manage both to tell children the simpler story and maturing ones and adults, a more complex one (because there can be different interpretations). All Tchaikovsky's Ballets are coming-of-age stories (with Nutcracker, from childhood to teenage). Swan Lake may dwell more on his own doubts and fears during his years of realisation in my opinion.
To take his third Ballet, Sleeping Beauty, it's the first part of a fairy tale told by French Charles Perrault, from an old folk tale, quite useful to little girls, mind you. The first part, which can be seen in the Ballet and in the Disney animation, is rather a cautionary tale to girls' parents, don't breed them in a too protected way ignorant of the World, you won't prepare them for life and the too young marriage you were afraid of, is more likely to happen if they know nothing else than their hormones, than if they're aware of some realities.
In the sleeping part, in the original tale she has two children with the Prince Charming and her slumber means that she's not self-aware yet. Then they live some time together in a remote place, but he has to go back with her to his Kingdom, where his mother is an ogress; and when he has to go wage war, his mother asks a hunter to kill Aurora and her children and to prepare them as a meat for her. The hunter pretends to agree but instead, warns Aurora who flees in the forest and lives there with her children until her husband comes back. This isn't the usual ogre representation, it's rather a warning that a too young bride will have to find her own self with children, that she is their mother and educator, that she doesn't have to leave her in-laws to "absorb them" as their own under the pretext of her young age and inexperience, that she can rely on some external help, that she doesn't have to rely on daily help from her husband, good as he is, against his own family... Haven't we left fairy world for so frequent reality at the time? Or even today.

Actually isn't it the whole aim of most artistic representation? Isn't it so with the deeper Figure Skating programs too? Or, simply, a distraction from too harsh reality. With the comparative inconvenient that with Opera or Ballet, an aria or a variation can be cut from the rest and given a whole different meaning, or sung/danced into its meaning in the Opera/Ballet. This gap is, I believe, being bridged somewhere.
 
All of those are in service of expression.

Funnily, your comments remind me of the history of ballet. Noverre (and people like Marie Salle) criticised ballet in its earlier forms to merely exist decoratively in the narrative as a display of skill and virtuosity, and not for self-expression. The dancing itself used to not carry the narrative. It's through critics like him we understand ballet in its current form.

This is why I don't care for skating before the late 80s. Music existed in service of the skating. Skating largely didn't exist in service of the music, with few exceptions.

Sadly, it seems we are going back to the form of 'virtuosic display that has little to do with music' when it comes to skating nowadays.
I fully agree with you about Noverre's aims which were already those of French King Louis XIV, explicit as soon as 1661 in the Lettres patentes making the Académie royale de Danse.

Figure Skating before the 1980s simply didn't have the quality of sound to have real music leading real programs.

As to the virtuosic display that has little to do with music, I would suggest you to watch further than those very few Skaters kept ahead in scoring by not respecting scoring rules, and to watch "the real best", they're really skating to music, to all sorts of Music, and they're more proficient than their elders and can have both virtuosity and interpretation.
 
As to the virtuosic display that has little to do with music, I would suggest you to watch further than those very few Skaters kept ahead in scoring by not respecting scoring rules, and to watch "the real best", they're really skating to music, to all sorts of Music, and they're more proficient than their elders and can have both virtuosity and interpretation.
I have no clue who you're speaking about here. Care to give examples? From competition? Current?

I will say, if this is about Hanyu and his oppression by the ISU yet again, then to me, the criticism about modern ballet comes into picture very easily with him -- how competitions have guided ballet into glassy perfection and superior technical moves being placed over theatre, quite a bit. It's rather amusing how we seem to have gone full circle both in ballet as well as figure skating...
 
This is why I don't care for skating before the late 80s. Music existed in service of the skating. Skating largely didn't exist in service of the music, with few exceptions.
Food for thought. Which comes first, the music or the skating? Many skiaters of every era choose a great piece of music (especially in the case of a classical warhorse) and say, that's for me. THEN they go to work with their choreographer to come up with an artistically appropriate response.

Sometimes its the other way around.

In ballet, the worst possible experience (for the audience) is when the choreographer/director "wastes the music." The music screams, "Lift her, lift her, lift her, you idiot..." Then... never mind, too late.

My favorite Swan Lake by a singles skater, by the way, is Rudy Galindo's performance at 1996 U.S. Nationals.

As for nostalgia, back in the day I would often see top skaters from the Detroit Skating Club (Todd Eldredge, Punsalan and Swallow) hanging out in the classical music department of Borders Book Store in Birmingham, listening to a slew of CDs seeking inspiration for the next season. :)
 
Which comes first, the music or the skating?
I'd say that, as an example, if a skater, say an Olympic champion from 1980, takes what's best described as a 'dance break' in the middle of his program, dedicated strictly to a display of "choreography" and "skating skill", then he fits rather well into Noverre's critiques.

Many skiaters of every era choose a great piece of music (especially in the case of a classical warhorse) and say, that's for me. THEN they go to work with their choreographer to come up with an artistically appropriate response.

Sometimes its the other way around.
In either case, the goal should be the same.
 
I have no clue who you're speaking about here. Care to give examples? From competition? Current?

I will say, if this is about Hanyu and his oppression by the ISU yet again, then to me, the criticism about modern ballet comes into picture very easily with him -- how competitions have guided ballet into glassy perfection and superior technical moves being placed over theatre, quite a bit. It's rather amusing how we seem to have gone full circle both in ballet as well as figure skating...
I didn't imagine that your "nowadays" could mean as far in the past as 2022 or before, so I was thinking about the current competitive Skaters, Single because I know Pairs and Ice Dance much less, and there are really several who interpret Music in a way I somehow immerse into with them? Among Women and irrespective of fine skills I would say Amber Glenn, Isabeau Leviteau for US, Mone Chiba for Japan (several retired lately, and I believe that Ami Nakai may well go this way too, alas not Mao Shimada who gets "unreal" components though, one of the references in my remark), Jia Shin and maybe some I don't know for Korea (the generations between Yuna Kim and her were quite proficient, soft and all but I think, less into the music, my take being that their insane national competition calendar must prevent any personal maturing of a program), and actually several others from smaller federations, among Men of course Jason Brown, I should watch other younger US Skaters, that should be a motivation to be attentive on the Grand Prix this season, in Japan Kazuki Tomono, Shun Sato, Sota Yamamoto, of course Junhwan Cha or "my" Kévin Aymoz (and Adam Siao Him Fa is improving)... I have the impression that at this level of interpretation, the Grand Prix next season has more great Single Skaters than it used to be some years ago? Although I believe that around 2014 there was a high too, but numerically, maybe among Men only?
 
I didn't imagine that your "nowadays" could mean as far in the past as 2022 or before, so I was thinking about the current competitive Skaters, Single because I know Pairs and Ice Dance much less, and there are really several who interpret Music in a way I somehow immerse into with them? Among Women and irrespective of fine skills I would say Amber Glenn, Isabeau Leviteau for US, Mone Chiba for Japan (several retired lately, and I believe that Ami Nakai may well go this way too, alas not Mao Shimada who gets "unreal" components though, one of the references in my remark), Jia Shin and maybe some I don't know for Korea (the generations between Yuna Kim and her were quite proficient, soft and all but I think, less into the music, my take being that their insane national competition calendar must prevent any personal maturing of a program), and actually several others from smaller federations, among Men of course Jason Brown, I should watch other younger US Skaters, that should be a motivation to be attentive on the Grand Prix this season, in Japan Kazuki Tomono, Shun Sato, Sota Yamamoto, of course Junhwan Cha or "my" Kévin Aymoz (and Adam Siao Him Fa is improving)... I have the impression that at this level of interpretation, the Grand Prix next season has more great Single Skaters than it used to be some years ago? Although I believe that around 2014 there was a high too, but numerically, maybe among Men only?
Ah, then I disagree rather strongly with all those examples, outside Aymoz (who has his own technical issues). I'd never say Sato is an example of amazing interpretation OR virtuosic technique. Chiba might get there in terms of interpretation, but I have doubts. Siao Him Fa has excellent body movement but is rather limited by the kind of technique he has.

Tomono: technique again. Cha: technique, and bland performer for me. Levito: technique, and cookie cutter. Shin: bland.

In which universe are some of these skaters held down? I'd say only Chiba sometimes is, and Nakai was at the Olympics, unless I really need to rehash why Cha and Sato were robbed or something. Kazuki Tomono at 2018 Worlds isn't something I care about too much at this stage...

Are Aymoz, Brown, Yamamoto, and Glenn not "elders"?
and they're more proficient than their elders and can have both virtuosity and interpretation.
 
Last edited:
Ah, then I disagree rather strongly with all those examples, outside Aymoz (who has his own technical issues). I'd never say Sato is an example of amazing interpretation OR virtuosic technique. Chiba might get there in terms of interpretation, but I have doubts. Siao Him Fa has excellent body movement but is rather limited by the kind of technique he has.

Tomono: technique again. Cha: technique, and bland performer for me. Levito: technique, and cookie cutter. Shin: bland.

In which universe are some of these skaters held down? I'd say only Chiba sometimes is, and Nakai was at the Olympics, unless I really need to rehash why Cha and Sato were robbed or something. Kazuki Tomono at 2018 Worlds isn't something I care about too much at this stage...

Are Aymoz, Brown, Yamamoto, and Glenn not "elders"?
Usually they're not underscored, except as you say Ami Nakai at Olympic Games; some can even be overscored. The scoring discrepancy comes from forgetting calls, giving wrongly high Grades of Executions and 9s in Components to the skates of a few other Skaters. And now comes Mao Shimada...
Sorry, this part was a digression from the thread's theme.

Shun Sato may have technical issues with some jumps take-offs, but the rest! I don't know his programs for next seasons but please watch him!
Is technique only for jumps in your opinion? Who are you referring to, as having perfect everything in a Golden Age?

Yes, the skaters you mentioned are somehow "elders", why souldn't they be included in the mix? They're part of what makes today's Figure Skating beautiful! If you want to take only the young and inexperienced, well, their skating is usually less mature and young skaters have always been less mature? For the best ones, it's pleasant to see them progress!
 
... And I don't remember ever seeing a Chaplin program with a mock cane or a Sherlock program with a mock pipe & looking glass. Well, it could be that the programs simply were not memorable or I missed them somehow but still... Could you please bring up some example videos of bad theatrics ... that have shaped your nostalgic view on figure skating?
I understand that this is not directed specifically. to me but I wanted to respond anyway. ;) I have no problem with Charlie Chaplin. Physical comedy is a legitimate (if somewhat low class) art form, and "Ice is Slippery" is a legitimate theme for a skating program. Frick and Frack are both in the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame for such Vaudeville-type hoke.

Here is my favorite Chaplin program (Berezhnaya ad Sikharudlidze, 2001 World Championship LP). I think that the interpretation is charming.


For Sherlock Holmes, I did not find any figure skaters wearing deerstalker caps or Inverness capes, but I did find a couple of quite satisfactory performances to music from Sherlock Holmes movie soundtracks.

Here is Intermediate skater James Cha, 2021.


And here is a more mature offering (Michael Brezina, 2014 Olympics).


I find find nothing to criticize here. For examples of "bad theatrics," I turn to Elvis Pressly impersonators. These mostly utterly miss the mark and come off merely as an insult to the influential singer. :)
 
Last edited:
I just had an epiphany about this story-telling thing. What is "story-telling"?

To me, smoking a pipe and peering through a magnifying glass is not telling a story. What's the story? The Sherlock Holmes Canon comprises 56 short stories and 4 novels. (I know -- I have read them all, with pleasure.) Which of them would a skater attempt to "tell"? on ice in 4 and a half minutes? (In the two Sherlock Holmes programs posted above in post 91, as far as I can tell the only attempt at establishing the Holmes theme was the opening pose, where the young skater looks out toward the horizon and where Brezina assumes a thoughtful expression for a few seconds.)

Richard Wagner wrote an operatic epic incorporating stories from Norse mythology. It is 15 hours long (I have sat through all 15 hours when I was young and had more stamina.) If a figure skater skates to the Ride of the Valkyrie, is this story-telling?

Philippe Candeloro is widely praised for his swashbuckling take on the Three Musketeers. Google just informed me that it takes the average reader 10 hours and 42 minutes to read this 160,681-word tome. The "novel" consists of a sequence of largely isolated episodes (it was originally published in serial form in a newspaper). Well, who can fault Candeloro for not making any attempt to actually tell any of these stories, but rather to charge up and down the ice sword-fighting the air? Performing art, yes. Story-telling?
 
Last edited:
(...) I have no problem with Charlie Chaplin. Physical comedy is a legitimate (if somewhat low class) art form,(...)
Funnily, I'm answering to the same part of your post as TallyT, but with a different thought: as well as there are base values for Elements, depending on their difficulty, and as the Skating Skills definitions obviously includes an assessment of the difficulty and number of steps, moves etc; in Composition and Presentation there is no specification as to how to take into account the difficulty of "making something out of" a given program. Some Skaters, who are more on the Athletic side of Figure Skating, will have a well thought program of easy interpretation; others will have a more ambitious program and be unable to give it a coherence, sometimes not even a hint of an interpretation; while others will skate a masterpiece out of a very difficult and intricate Choreography (we may enter in details if you think it's necessary?)
I think that a well skated easier Choreography would deserve a high score on a reduced basis, that is, to reach or approach a cap/ceiling which would be function of a level of difficulty of the program (not including the Elements Base Value, already scored elsewhere!), a less well skated difficult Choreography a lower score of a higher basis, and so on.
 
I just had an epiphany about this story-telling thing. What is "story-telling"?

To me, smoking a pipe and peering through a magnifying glass is not telling a story. What's the story? The Sherlock Holmes Canon comprises 56 short stories and 4 novels. (I know -- I have read them all, with pleasure.) Which of them would a skater attempt to "tell"? on ice in 4 and a half minutes?

Richard Wagner wrote an operatic epic incorporating stories from Norse mythology. It is 15 hours long (I have sat through all 15 hours when I was young and had more stamina.) If a figure skater skates to the Ride of the Valkyrie, is this story-telling?

Philippe Candeloro is widely praised for his swashbuckling take on the Three Musketeers. Google just informed me that it takes the average reader 10 hours and 42 minutes to read this 160,681-word tome. The "novel" consists of a sequence of largely isolated episodes (it was originally published in serial form in a newspaper). Well, who can fault Candeloro for not making any attempt to actually tell any of these stories, but rather to charge up and down the ice sword-fighting the air? Performing art, yes. Story-telling?
And what do you make of abstraction? In my previous post I precisely forgot to express my fear that my proposal would get to too high-brow pretensions of programs, not everybody is Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Cizeron who could sell them? I think that story-telling is much broader than a linear story, and that a Skater can successfully picture a program's idea without a chronological tale; which is not equal to a pair of moves during the first two seconds of a program followed by a boring practice, of course.
 
The storytelling in figure skating, good or bad, is impressionistic and that's fine. With Chaplin and Presley (both of whom I admire but do not have a particle of love) I think they are looking to evoke the popular imagery surrounding them rather than the real artist - after all, most of those who recognise the Chaplin 'image' that skaters evoke would never have actually watched a single Chaplin film, it's the outward stereotypes (Javier did it twice with very different costumes), and for a book or play etc, a perception rather than the story, rather like Kate Bush's Wuthering Heights (again, many many fans of the music will never have read the book or even seen one of the film versions).
 
Last edited:
To me, smoking a pipe and peering through a magnifying glass is not telling a story. What's the story? The Sherlock Holmes Canon comprises 56 short stories and 4 novels. (I know -- I have read them all, with pleasure.) Which of them would a skater attempt to "tell"? on ice in 4 and a half minutes? (In the two Sherlock Holmes programs posted above in post 91, as far as I can tell the only attempt at establishing the Holmes theme was the opening pose, where the young skater looks out toward the horizon and where Brezina assumes a thoughtful expression for a few seconds.)
:confused: So as an example, if a single variation from a ballet only takes a few minutes, you wouldn't consider it story telling?
 
Shun Sato may have technical issues with some jumps take-offs, but the rest! I don't know his programs for next seasons but please watch him!
Why do you think I haven't watched these skaters? Have you?

Shun Sato has awful spinning technique, and his basic skating may be better than someone like Malinin's, but it's nowhere even close to being particularly good or impressive. Malinin is frankly the better technical skater there, with better spins and better jumps.
 
Back
Top