Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

[Mathman]

Did Sasha skate like Sasha? I remember Sasha becoming a gypsy, a Spanish dancer, Juliet etc.

Actually, yes, I think Sasha does skate like Sasha.

I cannot tell the difference between a triple Lutz done in the Gypsy style and one done in the Spanish style. When Sasha pulls her leg straight up and spins around real fast, I am not crying out, no, no Juliet, don't stab yourself, you'll get over your grief.

It just does not seem like a legitimate art form to me.. Spanish dancers don't skate. They don't glide along on an edge. When a skater clicks imaginary castenets, then does a sit spin -- well, OK, she is acknowledging the music. But I would not say that she "became" a Spanish dancer.

I'm not sure that a male skater (regardless of sexual orientation) should feel "Princessy".

Would it be better if he felt "Princely?"

 

[viv]

.... I'm not sure that a male skater(regardless of sexual orientation) should feel "Princessy".

Why? :scratch:

If he's fine with feeling princessy, why shouldn't he?

Would it be better if he felt "Princely?"

 

[janetfan]

I see what you mean, but personally I love it. That's a perfect example of how unique a sport this is.

Some of us like the diversity in Figure Skating and others maybe not as much. I think freedom of expression is a good thing even if it is not always the best thing for the sport. Interest always peaks in an Olympic year and many casual fans and those who are not really fans at all may see some skating during the Olympics. Since most of those viewers drift away after the Olympics I guess it is hard to say if certain behavior/outfits/attitude is good or bad for skating. Maybe it doesn't matter at all - and it does seem unfair to shape a sport's image based on two nights of skating that only happens once every four years.
I am not a big Johnny fan although I think his skating has some nice qualities.
If we check out his record we will see that after many trips to Worlds plus one Olympics - he has one medal - a bronze - to his credit.
It is easy to see that without the flamboyance and media saavy Johnny would not be as popular as he is because his skating record is not all that impressive. Even Goebbel and Lysacek have much better resumes on the World stage and they are not exactly considered all-time greats.
So, put yourself in Johnny's "skates" for a couple of minutes and seeing it through his eyes what choice did he really have. He won several US championships against so-so competition but the real fame comes at international competitions. On the big stage he has typically been outclassed. He obviously knows that - and as a skater who craves a certain degree of fame and notoriety his only real choice was to emhasize what a free spirit he is. To play it up with the press, create feuds, put down his teamates, his country, whatever he could do to keep his name in the press. Other sports have colorful figures - remember basketball player Dennis Rodman? He makes Weir look like a shrinking violet and he was in the NBA.
So I am not a Johnny fan but I could care less about his antics and the personna he has worked so hard to create. I do care about his skating and if he can fight his way back onto Team USA then I will be glad for him and hope he will do his best at Vancouver. I don't care if he medals but I hope he gives it his best shot.
Making Team USA this year could be hard for Johnny if Mroz skates well and Rippon is ready.

 

[Tonichelle]

He won several US championships against very weak competition but the real fame comes at international competitions.

Being there for two of his wins, Johnny didn't just sit on his keester. He skated his butt off. He holds the US Nationals as an important competition. I'm not a fan of his, no secret there, but I don't think he won just because a field MIGHT have been weak. He won in 06 against Evan's Carmen (which was awesome), and aside from a fall on Evan's part in his SP footwork it's not like Evan "gave" him the title.

And it's not like Evan has been the clear winner in his two titles... Johnny should have won last year (08). And I was cheering for Evan in the arena that night I think I shocked all of my seatmates when the results popped up. The judges were playing it too close, IMHO....

 

[gio]

It just does not seem like a legitimate art form to me.. Spanish dancers don't skate. They don't glide along on an edge. When a skater clicks imaginary castenets, then does a sit spin -- well, OK, she is acknowledging the music. But I would not say that she "became" a Spanish dancer.

You said that she clicks imaginary castenets - isn't this mimicking a Spanish Dancer?

The beginning of Malaguena is a classic. Her face full of anger as a bull in a arena, running against the torero. That is the movement of the Spanish Dancer in Paso Doble. Then she is using her hands mimicking the castenets and then her movements of the hands are clearly depicting the dancer movement of the imaginary dress. And in the step sequence we see again Sasha running as a bull.
All this between the elements making the program very interesting.

 

[Mathman]

If we check out his record we will see that after many trips to Worlds plus one Olympics - he has one medal - a bronze - to his credit.

Some people just enjoy Weir's skating and don't care so much about international medals.

Janet Lynn got 9th, 5th, 6th, 4th, 3rd, and 2nd in six tries at Worlds -- but she was, and is, regarded as one of the all-time greats.

 

[Brandi_DeLain]

Some of us like the diversity in Figure Skating and others maybe not as much. I think freedom of expression is a good thing even if it is not always the best thing for the sport. Interest always peeks in an Olympic year and many casual fans and those who are not really fans at all may see some skating during the Olympics. Since most of those viewers drift away after the Olympics I guess it is hard to say if certain behavior/outfits/attitude is good or bad for skating. Maybe it doesn't matter at all - and it does seem unfair to shape a sport's image based on two nights of skating that only happens once every four years.
I am not a big Johnny fan although I think his skating has some nice qualities.
If we check out his record we will see that after many trips to Worlds plus one Olympics - he has one medal - a bronze - to his credit.
It is easy to see that without the flamboyance and media savy Johnny would not be as popular as he is because his skating record is not all that impressive. Even Goebbel and Lysacek have much better resumes on the World stage and they are not exactly considered all-time greats.
So, put yourself in Johnny's "skates" for a couple of minutes and seeing it through his eyes what choice did he really have. He won several US championships against very weak competition but the real fame comes at international competitions. On the big stage he has typically been outclassed. He obviously knows that - and as a skater who craves a certain degree of fame and notoriety his only real choice was to emhasize what a free spirit he is. To play it up with the press, create feuds, put down his teamates, his country, whatever he could do to keep his name in the press. Other sports have colorful figures - remember basketball player Dennis Rodman? He makes Weir look like a shrinking violet and he was in the NBA.
So I am not a Johnny fan but I could care less about his antics and the personna he has worked so hard to create. I do care about his skating and if he can fight his way back onto Team USA then I will be glad for him and hope he will do his best at Vancouver. I don't care if he medals but I hope he gives it his best shot.
Making Team USA this year could be hard for Johnny if Mroz skates well and Rippon is ready.

I can certainly tell that you're not a Johnny fan, but it's pretty hard to believe that you don't care about his "antics." If you didn't care, you wouldn't have written a long-winded diatribe outlining everything you think is wrong with those "antics."

I ignore things/people I don't care about.

 

[Medusa]

And Weir is not that much less successful than Lysacek. Sure, Lysacek has World Title now. But before that Lysacek had two National Titles and two World Bronzes, Weir had three National Titles and one World Bronze. Gehopst wie gesprungen!

Of course I have also to agree with Mathman: How many great figure skaters have really had the ultimate success? Toller Cranston, one of the all time greats and together with Curry credited for the new direction men's skating took in the seventies, amounted one World Bronze and one Olympic Bronze in his career.

Sasha Abt, so immensely talented and artistic - two medals at Europeans (robbed in 2002 ). Ilya Klimkin, brilliant, very creative - one medal at Europeans. And the list goes on and on... (I can only think of great male skaters, don't care enough about Ladies)

If Johnny doesn't win anything big, then I will add him to the list. He brought his unique style, an amazing artistry and a refreshing attitude to the sport.

 

[Mathman]

You said that she clicks imaginary castenets - isn't this mimicking a Spanish Dancer?

Yes, she is mimicking a Spanish dancer.

I guess we are saying the same thing in different words. To me, "mimicking" is not "becoming."

And in the step sequence we see again Sasha running as a bull.

I am not so sure about this one. In Sasha's step sequence I see more rockers, counters and three turns than "bull."

I guess what I am saying is, I lke the things that make figure skating different from other performing arts better than I like the things that make it the same.

My favorite Michelle program is the Red Violin (especially the exhibition version as performed at 1999 Worlds gala. ) I don't think I would have liked it as much if she had dressed up in a violin costume, or if she had played air violin during her spiral sequence.

 

[janetfan]

I can certainly tell that you're not a Johnny fan, but it's pretty hard to believe that you don't care about his "antics." If you didn't care, you wouldn't have written a long-winded diatribe outlining everything you think is wrong with those "antics."

I ignore things/people I don't care about.

I said I think Weir has some nice qualities to his skating. When he is really "on" he can create special moments on the ice.
I don't care much about, or for his off-ice personna and antics. I am aware to an extent because I am a skating fan. That said, if he skates well enough to win a spot on Team USA I will be glad for him. If he gives his best in Vancouver I will also be glad for him. I never said kick him out, or there is no place for him in skating. I think I said the opposite but you didn't want to hear it. It doesn't bother me in the least if someone is not an Evan fan. I hear remarks about him here and somtetimes they are true, sometimes false and sometimes funny. But I am not gonna get down on someone just coz they are not a fan of Evan. I am not really much of an Evan fan myself. But it amazes me if anyone says Evan did this or won that how the Johnny fans come out of the woodwork.
To point out that Weir has not had alot of success at the biggest international events is just basically being honest. And unless Johnny has a big season this year he will be remembered as a colorful character but not so much as a great skater. Or maybe that is not fair. Maybe he will be remembered as a skater who did not have alot of success at the most important events. There is an artisitc side to his skating that some will always remember.

 

[janetfan]

Some people just enjoy Weir's skating and don't care so much about international medals.

Janet Lynn got 9th, 5th, 6th, 4th, 3rd, and 2nd in six tries at Worlds -- but she was, and is, regarded as one of the all-time greats.

That is a good point. I think Janet is the most influential skater of the modern era.
How old was Janet at her first Worlds? Maybe 14? You already know - if we remove the school figures - Janet's placements go up much higher. In fact, how many years did she go without ever losing the free skate portion of a competition? But I don't need to defend Janet because she is a skating legend.
Maybe someday Johnny's skating will earn him such a reputation -if not he will be remembered for his free spirit.

If I had been a judge at the '08 Nationals (note that I am older and still see things more through the 6.0 system) I think I would have placed Johnny first and Evan second. I thought it was really pretty close - and in my mind I would award the more artistic skater first place.

 

[Brandi_DeLain]

I never said kick him out, or there is no place for him in skating. I think I said the opposite but you didn't want to hear it.

Huh? :scratch: I never said you said "kick him out, or there is no place for him in skating." Where did that come from?

It doesn't bother me in the least if someone is not an Evan fan.

I didn't mention Evan, but I think it's interesting that you did.

To point out that Weir has not had alot of success at the biggest international events is just basically being honest.

And I didn't disagree with that.

You posted a long-winded rant about Johnny's "antics." You then stated that you don't care at all about Johnny's "antics." I simply pointed out that you seem to be contradicting yourself. If you truly don't care about his "antics," you wouldn't post about them, much less at length.

 

[janetfan]

Huh? :scratch: I never said you said "kick him out, or there is no place for him in skating." Where did that come from?



I didn't mention Evan, but I think it's interesting that you did.

And I didn't disagree with that.

You posted a long-winded rant about Johnny's "antics." You then stated that you don't care at all about Johnny's "antics." I simply pointed out that you seem to be contradicting yourself. If you truly don't care about his "antics," you wouldn't post about them, much less at length.

Actually, if you have something important to say please go ahead. I just feel like you are nit picking rather than saying what is really on your mind.

 

[gkelly]

I think I would have placed Johnny first and Evan second. I thought it was really pretty close - and in my mind I would award the more artistic skater first place.

So who do you think was "the more artistic skater"? I think that was pretty close too -- and clearly subject to differences of opinion.

 

[Brandi_DeLain]

Actually, if you have something important to say please go ahead. I just feel like you are nit picking rgather than saying what is really on your mind.

 

[janetfan]

So who do you think was "the more artistic skater"? I think that was pretty close too -- and clearly subject to differences of opinion.

I said that at 08 Natls I would have placed Johnny first. I said I was looking at it through a 6.0 lens - and that would mean in a tie that I would place Johnny first for superior artistry.
Funny, but I think under cop Evan won the tie breaker - also based on artistry. But I dont remember exactly how the tie was broken. Care to remind me?

 

[Brandi_DeLain]

I said that at 08 Natls I would have placed Johnny first. I said I was looking at it through a 6.0 lens - and that would mean in a tie that I would place Johnny first for superior artistry.
Funny, but I think under cop Evan won the tie breaker - also based on artistry. But I dont remember exactly how the tie was broken. Care to remind me?

The Free Skate score. Evan won the FS, so he won the title.

 

[janetfan]

The Free Skate score. Evan won the FS, so he won the title.

Yes, thankyou, now I remember. I did forget and remember thinking that in a tie Johnny would have won. But that is just my old 6.0 mentality.
Regardless of the system, I felt Johnny was the better skater at that event. But I did not think either of them would get within 10 points of first at Worlds that year either. I dont mean that to be good or bad - just was my opinion at the time.
Was like watching Ladies Natls that year too, I didn't see our girls being in contention either.

 

[nylynnr]

And it's not like Evan has been the clear winner in his two titles... Johnny should have won last year (08). And I was cheering for Evan in the arena that night I think I shocked all of my seatmates when the results popped up. The judges were playing it too close, IMHO....

Certainly one can debate the outcome of the second of Evan's U.S. titles, but he won his first by nearly 30 points. His free skate basically tore the roof off.

 

[gio]

Yes, she is mimicking a Spanish dancer.
I guess we are saying the same thing in different words. To me, "mimicking" is not "becoming."

I guess what I am saying is, I lke the things that make figure skating different from other performing arts better than I like the things that make it the same.

OK, now I understand what you've meant!

I don't think I would have liked it as much if she had dressed up in a violin costume, or if she had played air violin during her spiral sequence.