Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

[janetfan]

Well, if you want to go way back, it is Jackson Haines (1940-1875) who is usually credited with inventing “fancy skating” as a mix of sport and performing art.
He was the first to skate expressively to music and to incorporate elements of his training in ballet into the amalgam. He also invented the sit spin.
Here he is in his skating costume. :yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Haines

Thanks for sharing that info mm. I was aware of Haines and also that there were skating shows in North America in the 19th century - but I wish I knew more about it.
I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me about Janet's place in skating history. Peggy was a wonderful skater. Because the sport had evolved one could state that Peggy was a better skater than Queen Sonja. Just as one could say Yuna is a better skater than Peggy. I am particularly aware and considerate when comparing skaters, athletes, musicians, etc from different eras. So what I do consider most important is the impact a skater or ahtlete has on their sport. Very few athletes leave a lasting impact on their sport and even fewer change their sport. NBA legend Wilt Chamberlain is one of the rare athletes who left such a legacy and whose impact was so great that they changed the rules of the sport for him.
Janet is also an athlete who left a lasting legacy and whose impact was so great that rules were changed to accomadate her special talent which was free skating.
She took it to levels and heights that had never been seen before. Her connection with an audience may never be equaled again. She basically re-invented the free skate and made it into something special. Today some call it performance art. Not all like that it has become more and more theatrical. Not all like the elaborate costumes. Very few of today's skaters, with there fancy costumes and makeup, and elaborate programmed choreography come close to creating the effect Janet had on the ice. She was different, a natural, and it is still the goal of the majority of skaters today to do what Janet first did so well. Combine athletic abilty with artistic impession creating a piece of art on the ice.
This gets way off topic so I apologize. I did mention Katerina and she certainly deserves credit as an innovator - not through her skating as much as for her theatrical contributions which are still felt and influential today.

 

[Mathman]

...it is much more interesting to write in some form or the other and it is quite demanding to express oneself within a set of given rules. It also helps to focus on certain things. To much freedom can be confusing and often results in blah....

That is the very reason why short programs in figure skating are almost always better than long programs.

"He aspired to a higher ordination." :yes: :agree:

 

[seniorita]

After this long thread, I think me and myself have decided that we like or can live with sequins and sparkling stuff but not with distracting feathers left and right
I m debating about gloves now..

 

[janetfan]

After this long thread, I think me and myself have decided that we like or can live with sequins and sparkling stuff but not with distracting feathers left and right
I m debating about gloves now..

See there we go. I was about to agree and then I remember Yuna's costume from "Tango" . I liked the costume, the GLOVES, the hair and makeup. One of my favorite all time SP's.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Kunstrijder- Also a nice thoughtful analysis of the topic regarding Sport or Art.

What I did not like about your post was your last sentences;

agree with the above. I could hardly enjoy skating as much as I do if it wasn't for the music and the choreography and also the costumes. I don't need flamboyant ones but I don't want all skaters to wear the same​

So you are basing your position on your personal enjoyment. That's ok. We all do.

However, I enjoy the music somewhat and more if a contestant uses it. Otherwise, I would prefer the SP to be no music and just elements tested. The LP could use music but it should be heavily judged; the choreography in most cases has little to do with the music and the elements are all the same. It's not a question of artistry, it is a question of no mistakes. Skating has a huge problem with that stiff blade attached to their boots

I have no problem with plain costumes. They could be cut differently, color would be optional and could have a bit of decor, but we agree flamboyance is not necessary. That would be for Exhibition Time (which I don't watch, and have no interest in.)

 

[Mathman]

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me about Janet's place in skating history.

Not about the fact that Janet Lynn holds a unique place in skating history, but maybe a little bit as to just what it is that we revere her for. I was confused about this sentence:

Skating has been evolving ever since Janet first expressed her feelings and movements to the music.

If the claim is that Janet Lynn was the first skater ever to express her feelings with movemnent to music, I think that would be hard to support. Plus, I am not sure that skating has "evolved" in this regard since Janet's time -- I would be hard pressed to name anyone who took what Janet showed us about the presentation side of the sport and carried it further (in a good direction. )

Have you read Sonia Bianchetti's book Cracked Ice? Bianchetti was a judge and ISU official back in those days and as she rose in the ISU ranks she spearheaded the movement to get rid of figures. (The book is mostly about how Ottavio Cinquanta and his nasty speed skating cronies did an end run on her when she should have been the next rightful ISU President.)

As you know, the issue was, we can't attract a big audience (especially a television audience) for the sport if the only thing the audience sees is a beautiful free skater like Janet Lynn skating circles around figures expert Trixie Shuba -- and then loses. What's up with that?

In response, to make figure skating more audience-friendly, they not only changed "figure skating" -- they abolished it.

Interestingly, in Janet Lynn's address at the USFS national meeting last year she singled out the demise of figures, along with the new judging system, as the reason why figure skating has lost it's beauty -- and with it, it's audience appeal.

(So, it's all Janet's fault after all! )

 

[Mathman]

Joe, this is the part that I don't understand. You don't like so-called "art" in figure skating, because if you want art, you can see more artsy art at the ballet theater or the opera house.

But by the same token, if you want sport you can see more sporty sport at a Knicks or Rangers game.

Why follow figure skating at all if you don't like the two mixed together?

 

[seniorita]

Otherwise, I would prefer the SP to be no music and just elements tested. The LP could use music but it should be heavily judged;

that sounds like balance beam on ice..
It s just 2.50 or 4.50 minutes of how someone can carry himself on ice with the help of music doing the elements..it is beautiful sport, art on its best, with few competitions per year and I think i agree with the one who said it is also fun. Otherwise I would watch football (...which I do but for diffrent reasons)

 

[janetfan]

Kunstrijder- Also a nice thoughtful analysis of the topic regarding Sport or Art.

What I did not like about your post was your last sentences;

agree with the above. I could hardly enjoy skating as much as I do if it wasn't for the music and the choreography and also the costumes. I don't need flamboyant ones but I don't want all skaters to wear the same​

So you are basing your position on your personal enjoyment. That's ok. We all do.

However, I enjoy the music somewhat and more if a contestant uses it. Otherwise, I would prefer the SP to be no music and just elements tested. The LP could use music but it should be heavily judged; the choreography in most cases has little to do with the music and the elements are all the same. It's not a question of artistry, it is a question of no mistakes. Skating has a huge problem with that stiff blade attached to their boots

I have no problem with plain costumes. They could be cut differently, color would be optional and could have a bit of decor, but we agree flamboyance is not necessary. That would be for Exhibition Time (which I don't watch, and have no interest in.)

You raise some good points Joe. I can't imagine free skating without music but it is curious that I love a good gymnastics event where most of the disciplines do not have music. The floor exercise does have music though, and why do you suppose that is?

I dont care for excessive makeup, or over the top costumes or even crazy music choices. I liked innovators like Toller Cranston and the Dushenays but am not a big fan of gender bending or overt sexual expression regardless of the expression. I dont mind romance in the Dance but sometimes find the Russo/East Euro style of a little bit too cheesy for my tastes. I dont think having a look of agony on your face means you are skating better than the next team.
But we all have different tastse and preference and if skaters all wore the same costume and skated to the same music would any of us bother watching?

 

[Medusa]

Why follow figure skating at all if you don't like the two mixed together?

What the heck are you doing? Now Joe will realise that he is actually deeply in love with Ice Hockey and Tennis and will never come back! Who are we supposed to argue with then?

 

[DragonPhoenix]

I read an interview with some ballett impresario and he was a asked specifically if ballett was also a sport and how sport and art are related.

There is a thread over at FSU which may have some relevance to this thread. The topic is "What is Artistry ".

Some people might find it interesting.

Here is the link http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=66288

 

[seniorita]

What the heck are you doing? Now Joe will realise that he is actually deeply in love with Ice Hockey and Tennis and will never come back! Who are we supposed to argue with then?

Lol yes, I second that!

medusa i just saw you are a neighboor

 

[Tinymavy15]

Intersting idea having SPs without music. It would be good as the diffrenciate the SP from the LP. THe former would be almost like a test pattern. 3 lutz, stroke out of it stop. layback spin stop. etc. I think they would never televise them if they were like that. They are getting rid of complusories and those have music. I kind of like the idea though. There is where the judges could really focus on good techinque and edges, where the rules coudl be slackned a little in the LP.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, this is the part that I don't understand. You don't like so-called "art" in figure skating, because if you want art, you can see more artsy art at the ballet theater or the opera house.

But by the same token, if you want sport you can see more sporty sport at a Knicks or Rangers game.

Why follow figure skating at all if you don't like the two mixed together?

I really think it's posts I read about how grand artistry is in Figure Skating. To me, it's always been good or bad presentation.

I have seen many ballets where i thought they were of good presentation but few were of great artistic ones. But ballet, although very athletic, is not a Sport so I don't have to judge the technical, but I do judge the technique of dancers. fans of ballet do not agree just like fans of figure skating.

I'm not schooled in vocals so I do not discuss Opera except to say whether I liked the performance or not.

I do go to CitiField two or three times a summer to watch the Mets, I don't expect them to be in flamboyant costumes. It's pure Sport and I love baseball. I just wish skating was more sporty than a fashion plate. BTW, when a not so high ball is hurling through space, I enjoy the ballet leap of baseball players to interrupt its travel with a catch. Some of them jump higher than skaters, and from a stand still sans toe pick.

I don't think anything is going to change in Figure Skating. The flamboyancy of costumes will rule and the media's penchant to write about the Ladies division will not change. I can live with these personal dislikes but I hope there is no corelation between costumes and the actual sport which is reason for its decline. No one wants to pick up a special network for figure skating. What makes that so?

 

[gkelly]

How about wrestling? I'd say that professional wrestling is performing art and competitive wrestling is sport, although similar skills are u sed in both.

Some athletes directly transfer their skills in gymnastics (or rhythmic gymnastics, trampoline, etc.) as sports to circus as performing art.

Similar distinction between competitive skating and show skating IMO.

 

[gio]

I can live with these personal dislikes but I hope there is no corelation between costumes and the actual sport which is reason for its decline. No one wants to pick up a special network for figure skating. What makes that so?

I don't think the reason for the decline in FS are costumes, simply because they were present before (80s), during (90s) and after (00s) the golden age (90s) of FS. That generally boys do not want to watch FS when they see their counterparts dressed in flamboyant costumes, that is another story and is very true. But I don't think they were part of the audience in the 90s. Maybe Elvis Stojko was a role model?

But if you really think to appeal the general male demographics with just changing the costumes it will really not work.
Just the fact that men skaters use classical music is a turn off. This kind of music is perceived as boring and girly.

 

[Mathman]

How about wrestling? I'd say that professional wrestling is performing art and competitive wrestling is sport, although similar skills are used in both...

Similar distinction between competitive skating and show skating IMO.

I think the differences far outweigh the similarities.

Professional wrestling is cartoony burlesque. Competitive wrestling does not interest audiences at all.

In skating, the ISU has pretty much killed off professional skating altogether, while trying to package competitive skating as an audience pleaser.

 

[gio]

Suggestions to appeal more boys watching FS

men skaters should
-wear jeans and shirts or T-shirts, or sport uniforms. No sequins, feathers allowed
-choose music amongst those genres (rock, metal, hip hop and techno)
-more agressive style of skating
-no balletic moves, but moves used in hip hop and techno

Would it work? hmm, I don't know, maybe some boys will watch it.

disclaimer - what is written above it doesn't mean I hope this will happen, but some changes will probably do good.

 

[eleonora.d]

Just the fact that men skaters use classical music is a turn off. This kind of music is perceived as boring and girly.

I absolutely agree! I would like to hear some more modern music.
See, I'm not a fan of Joubert - actually I can't stand him most of the time - and I always thinks quality of skating comes first. But skating on the same pieces of music again and again, or skating on boring, plain music is not good for our sport. Some skaters also tend to pick very sofisticated pieces without being able to interpret that in a way that may result truely artistic.

it's not about the promotion itself, some strong innovation is needed for the sake of the whole skating world and it shouldn't come down from the Isu (at least, not only), but from skaters themselves. Look at Contesti's long program this year..that'entertainment and sport at the same time!

I really wish he will go on like this. I showed his performance to many of my (male) friends and none of them found that boring (none of them is a skating fan of course )

I just wish there could be more Browings on earth or,erm, on the ice

 

[gio]

it's not about the promotion itself, some strong innovation is needed for the sake of the whole skating world and it shouldn't come down from the Isu (at least, not only), but from skaters themselves. Look at Contesti's long program this year..that'entertainment and sport at the same time!

I really wish he will go on like this. I showed his performance to many of my (male) friends and none of them found that boring (none of them is a skating fan of course )

Yeah Contesti's program was really fun to watch and appealing to the audiences.
Other good programs were Jeff Buttle - Personal Jesus and Sunglasses At Night or Evan Lysacek - Need You Tonight.
Those are appealing programs for male audience IMO