Just because the system doesn't award it accordingly doesn't mean it is not more difficult. I think Elvis brings up a good issue that should be discussed. And he just thinks the gap should have been closer and many people shares his opinion on that.
So, what is Elvis going to complain about this morning?
- Thread starter Johar
- Start date
Just because the system doesn't award it accordingly doesn't mean it is not more difficult. I think Elvis brings up a good issue that should be discussed. And he just thinks the gap should have been closer and many people shares his opinion on that.
On one hand, I agree that this issue should be looked at more closely and bring a discussion, on whether Triple Axles and Quads should receive more credit.
However, in Mao's case last night, Yes, having two triple axles is wildly amazing, but not having a Lutz or Salchow show signs of lacking full technical ability. Mao skated great, and her axles helped her earn a Silver. Not having a Lutz or Salchow, plus other mistakes put her out of the running for gold.
Remember guys.... you should get awarded to do the tough stuff, but you'll do even better when you can do the easier stuff as well....
However, in Mao's case last night, Yes, having two triple axles is wildly amazing, but not having a Lutz or Salchow show signs of lacking full technical ability. Mao skated great, and her axles helped her earn a Silver. Not having a Lutz or Salchow, plus other mistakes put her out of the running for gold.
Remember guys.... you should get awarded to do the tough stuff, but you'll do even better when you can do the easier stuff as well....
On theory, I would totally agree, but it was Kim's extraordinary performance last night that kept Asada out of the running for gold, evident by the 150 point score. An added Lutz or Salchow by Asada would not have made the difference or a mistake-free performance...from a fan's perspective.
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2006
:disapp:This guy is really just embarrassing himself now , or should be , if his ego would allow it.
Of course he's entitled to his opinion, as we all are, but his lack of objectivity , of any real constructive input , his desire to have one element trump everything else, ensures that his opinion just doesn't carry the weight he would like it to. Talk about shark jumping.
The ISU tried having a straight jump competition separate from World's or the GP .. but the fact that it never got much attention just goes to show that no-one is much interested in just watching skaters jump. Similarly, a straight spin competition would be pretty boring too.
Maybe CoP will have some future adjustments in regard to various combos ..but Elvis isn't arguing for tinkering or fine tuning, he wants the big jumps to not only outweigh the other elements individually , but to outweigh the other elements combined. I 'm not even remotely interested in what he has to say, anymore.
Of course he's entitled to his opinion, as we all are, but his lack of objectivity , of any real constructive input , his desire to have one element trump everything else, ensures that his opinion just doesn't carry the weight he would like it to. Talk about shark jumping.
The ISU tried having a straight jump competition separate from World's or the GP .. but the fact that it never got much attention just goes to show that no-one is much interested in just watching skaters jump. Similarly, a straight spin competition would be pretty boring too.
Maybe CoP will have some future adjustments in regard to various combos ..but Elvis isn't arguing for tinkering or fine tuning, he wants the big jumps to not only outweigh the other elements individually , but to outweigh the other elements combined. I 'm not even remotely interested in what he has to say, anymore.
I get that Mao did 2 3axels, I truly do and I get that's really difficult. But she also didn't do 3lutzs, and she didn't do a 3/3 or even a double axel/3toe. And I'm trying to understand really hard why Elvis thinks that's somehow immaterial to the discussion. Its great that Mao has perfected that one amazing jump. But that doesnt' mean that somehow gives Mao a free pass when it comes to the other jumps. And I remember when Lambiel won an Olympic silver medal (landing a quad) but no 3axel, Elvis commented on the fact that we have " an Olympic silver medalist without a 3axel" Well Elvis we have an Olympic silver medalist without a 3lutz. So really the guy seems to have a double standard.
I mean Kim did a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe. Mao couldn't even land a single solo 3toe cleanly. I guess according to Elvis everyone should just go out there land the hardest jump and then we can ignore everything else. He seems to forget that some jumps are harder for others.
That's not true. Mao got 131 with a popped jump, AND an underrotated jump (which cost her points and GOE because that combo clearly had problems)... IF Mao were to add a 3lutz an get credit at for her 3flip, she'd already be over 140. And that's not even including the extra GOE she'd get for those clean jumps. Also if she were to do a sequence so she could get a 3toe and a 3sal her score would increase even more.
Not to mention the fact that Mao's PCS would probably increase at enormous levels if she were to do an 8 triple program. I suspect that not having a 3lutz really hurts Mao PCS wise with the judges. So this idea that Mao could never ever come near Yu-na's score, isn't even true.
I mean Kim did a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe. Mao couldn't even land a single solo 3toe cleanly. I guess according to Elvis everyone should just go out there land the hardest jump and then we can ignore everything else. He seems to forget that some jumps are harder for others.
That's not true. Mao got 131 with a popped jump, AND an underrotated jump (which cost her points and GOE because that combo clearly had problems)... IF Mao were to add a 3lutz an get credit at for her 3flip, she'd already be over 140. And that's not even including the extra GOE she'd get for those clean jumps. Also if she were to do a sequence so she could get a 3toe and a 3sal her score would increase even more.
Not to mention the fact that Mao's PCS would probably increase at enormous levels if she were to do an 8 triple program. I suspect that not having a 3lutz really hurts Mao PCS wise with the judges. So this idea that Mao could never ever come near Yu-na's score, isn't even true.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2005
We also have an Olympic gold medalist without a triple loop...
Again, you can apply this to Yuna. She couldn't even land a single triple loop cleanly and to be fair Mao's toe pick got stuck in the ice while totally threw her off going into that jump.
Well Mao can't do a 3sal either. For me Mao's 3sal and Yu-na's 3loop all cancel each other. But the 3lutz is a big thing Mao is missing. To argue that its not is just ridiculous.
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2005
Agian, using this logic, YuNa is missing the triple axel so don't the lutz and axel cancel each other out as well?? They both can do 4 of the 6 triples.
I didn't find the thread title very nice, either, even though not comparable as another, titled "Bitter, little man" which seems to have already been removed (I myself am one of, if not only, the ones who reported that thread to the moderators).
Last edited:
Okay that's cool If you want to say the 3sal cances out the 3loop, and the 3axel/2toe cancels out the 3lutz and the 3axel cancel each other out. (Okay) But Yu-na does a double axel/3toe, and Mao does nothing to cancel THAT out.
:lol: I know I say this and do get that everything else Mao did to cancel out Yu-na was more difficult I do get that the 3axel/2toe is harder and the 3axel is harder than a 3liutz).. But I'm still sort of trying to make a point that Mao by making the jumping layout she chooses, doesn't really benefit from the triple axels the way she should. I will totally agree that in the end Mao's program is harder. But because Mao is missing a lot of technical stuff that the other ladies are doing, she gives up a lot of points...
Even if Mao were to leave out her 3lutz. But do a 3axel and a 3flip/3loop and a 3flip/3toe like she did in 2008, I have a feeling that the judges would actually be a bit more impressed with that because Mao's showing that she can master all kinds of different tricks.....Not just one. All I'm saying is that its like since Mao left Arturian and became world champ. Mao has decided to put all of her eggs in the 3axel basket and essentially let everything else stagnant.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2005
Well to compare it again, other ladies do triple-triple combinations and double axel-triple toe combinations while no one else on the planet can do two triple axels
Mao should never have went to Tarasova and I agree that she has put too much focus on the axels. I wish she would return to her beautiful music choices, light skating, and choreography because that suited her so wonderfully. It sounds like she is planning on staying around so I hope she makes some changes and goes back to what was so successful for her.
Yuna had a fantastic free skate - but I am not as involved in her long programs as I am in her short programs. I do think she was very much overscored here but she undoubtedly deserved her gold medal!
It was a very beautiful skate. Her short program was so much more magnificent though!I dont know why Stojko were being critisized.
how many times should i say that what elvis wanted to say is that quads
are underscored under the trend of figureskating today.
i think canadians and american should know the fact that the a lot of commentators from
France, Russia, Japan,China agree with stojko, although Evan and yu-na deserved the gold.
how many times should i say that what elvis wanted to say is that quads
are underscored under the trend of figureskating today.
i think canadians and american should know the fact that the a lot of commentators from
France, Russia, Japan,China agree with stojko, although Evan and yu-na deserved the gold.
If you watch Newyork TIme's coverage of Yuna that was shot few months ago during Yuna's media day in Toronto, she does one of the best triple loop. It was also shown in various practices last season that she is able to land clean Triple loop with height and flow.
However, she said it is not one of her best jumps and it tends to get away from her during the competition when she's under pressure. For Mao, it's not the pressure, it's the technial flaws so I would say it is a totally different thing.
When Elvis was discussing about Quad before the Men's competition on CTV I thought he was making a reasonable argument (although he did say anything other than quad is just garnish...) but now he's just ridiculous lol Maybe he's saying all that stuff becasue when he was a competitor he had quads but not the other qualities. To me, tech was very generous on Mao's 3A because both were more than 1/4 turn underrotated but she got away with it because she's the only one who's performning it. I think it was really unfair for Rachael flatt because
her 3flip didn't look any more UR than Mao's 3As.
her 3flip didn't look any more UR than Mao's 3As.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
There are plenty of practice clips where Mao lands all five triples, and Mao landed all five triples in competition last season. So by your own reasoning, Mao doesn't have any technical flaws. If anything, as Yuna hasn't landed a loop in competition in what, two seasons? it is more legit to say that Yuna suffers from technical flaws.
Last edited:
There's six triples if you have the Axel, so which one did you count out?
BTW, how many women actually landed five different triples in Vancouver? In the 6.0 days it used to be almost a minimum requirement.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
Sorry, I stand corrected. I didn't originally include the axel in the count because that's triple and a half. If you include the axel, there are practices clips of her landing all six, and she has had all six ratified in competition as recently as last season.
well,actually if you see some coverrage of mao on youtube you can know that mao can land nice triple lz and salcow.
but it is riduculous that you think yu-na can land the best 3loop even if she can do it on the prctice.
you can say it only when she lands it on the competition under the pressure.
right?
What is everyone's definition of "having" jumps? I define it as being able to do it in competition. Yu-na doesn't have the 3L at the moment, nor does she have the 3A. Mao doesn't have a 3-3, a 3S or a 3Lz. If they incoporate those elements once again, then they have it. What use is it to be able to execute a jump in practice when it's not good enough to deliver in competiton? People said Mao doesn't do a 3-3 in fear of DGs and a 3Lz because of edge calls. That means she can't do them because they're flawed and she needs to work on them, which basically means she doesn't have them. I don't know what the argument's about. She could have them in the future. At the moment, she doesn't.
Technically, Mao has the upper-hand, definitely, as she has two 3As in her program, but the fact of the matter is that she failed to deliver. Yu-na had a 3Lz-3T, 3F, 2A-2T-2L, 2A-3T, 3S, 3Lz and a 2A. Mao did a 3A, 3A-2T, 3F-2L, 3L, 3F< (2F) -2L-2L, 3T< (1T) and a 2A. In total, Yu-na did 6 triples. Mao did two triples and two 3As. Are two 3As really worth four triples and more? Elvis is basing his judgment not on Mao's layout or what she can really do, but on the actual LP performances. That's why people are arguing that his judgment on technical difficulty is unfair. He takes a myopic approach, which is why I really can't take him seriously, although I agree with the gist of his argument. He doesn't look at the other parts of the programs -- just that Yu-na did a 3-3 and Mao did two 3As and uses this to reason that Mao's score's being lower than Yu-na's is unfair. Yu-na was overscored, yes, but Mao's score is not so absurdly low when you consider the actual performance. She should've received better GOE, perhaps, but her score shouldn't jump to the 140, 150 range just because she has two 3As when the rest of her performance was flawed. She made mistakes. Elvis should've acknowledged that in making his judgment. And really, how much higher should Mao's score have been when you consider the fact that she got a 131.72 when Joannie got a 131.28 with 7 triples and Mirai got a 126.39 with one of the best performances of the night? If there is an argument anywhere, it's that Yu-na was overscored (which I agree with). I don't see how else the argument should proceed.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
It seems to me that the only way out of this scoring dilemma is to have a different scale of values for men and for women. The argument is that only a handful of women have ever landed the triple Axel, and therefore this element should be more highly valued.
(If we really want to shout "wuzrobbed," Ludmilla Nelidina landed 3A plus five other triples at 2002 Skate America, but only finished fifth.)
Anyway, we do not think that Evan Lysacek was underscored for his two triple-Axel program. Right now the triple Axel has base value 2.2 points higher than the next hardest triple, the triple Lutz. Maybe this should be increased to, say, three points higher for ladies.
But no matter what the base value of the triple Axel is pegged at, the way for a lady to take advantage of having this skill is to do everything else and a triple Axel. If you do a triple Axel instead of doing something else, then the extra points are not going to amount to all that much no matter what the scoring system is.
(If we really want to shout "wuzrobbed," Ludmilla Nelidina landed 3A plus five other triples at 2002 Skate America, but only finished fifth.)
Anyway, we do not think that Evan Lysacek was underscored for his two triple-Axel program. Right now the triple Axel has base value 2.2 points higher than the next hardest triple, the triple Lutz. Maybe this should be increased to, say, three points higher for ladies.
But no matter what the base value of the triple Axel is pegged at, the way for a lady to take advantage of having this skill is to do everything else and a triple Axel. If you do a triple Axel instead of doing something else, then the extra points are not going to amount to all that much no matter what the scoring system is.
