Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If the Mathman says this, it's really a deep problem. After all, you GET the math. And I completely agree with your point about how the CoP puts a barrier between the skaters and the audience. Most of us will stay with skating because our love for it is so deep even when we don't understand the results. But it will indeed drive potential fans away, because fandom starts looking like something they have to be qualified for. You can't say this often enough.

Unfortunately, there are Posters who talk about the informed fans which rule out all the problems of other fans who do not keep abreast of the various changes in scoring or understanding of the scoring. I could add that kind of thinking is why interest in figure skating is joyless and has already begun to fade away its one-time popularity.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

a lot of "fans" stopped watching when Michelle Kwan quit skating here in the US. I think that's when the real exodus occurred...

as for CoP there are a lot of skaters who also love the concept. so it's not that cut and dry.

I think there are some people who were looking for any excuse not to the love the sport anymore. It's still skating be it 6.0 or CoP... we're just all a bunch of wanna be dramaqueens who watch a sport filled with dramaqueens... so yeah everything is so horrible.

I think this is a speak for yourself which is fine, but not for others.

The CoP gives a lot of information back to the skater especially for the Juvenile and Novice divisions. For the Seniors, it's just a slap in the face. A Flutz is not a legal jump and that's what some skaters do. The UR is painfully scored by all the skaters when it's not felt by the skater. A Fall, etc. well, you know

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

(Scott Hamilton stated in his book he used the same choreography for years, just changed up pieces of music and maybe added or subtracted a few steps). Skaters following the 'winning pattern' (even before CoP you had Joubert trying to be Yagudin). And I'd argue that Michelle Kwan's programs were interchangable. There are few shining stars in ANY era. The ones of the 'bygone days' just look that much more rosy because of the tint of your glasses. (Well, that, and some of them just have larger than life personalities. We don't have a lot of those with the current crop, but skaters like Johnny Weir don't happen all the time anyway.)

Good post. I can understand Hamilton saying he used the same choreography for years. Figure Skating is a finite art form and now with CoP has been more finite. The scoring has eliminated so many skating items by issuing various directives, even jumps are not repeated for choreography but can be in in combos. Oh, the sport of it all. Rarely does one see a really grand performance by a skater. Good choreographers are few, and even they can not work out much from the basic material they are given. The demand in figure skating is not choreography, sadly, but in allowable BIG TRICKS. So why not use the same old tricks to new music which is used more as background music than for interpretation.

 

[FlattFan]

Even without the hometown bonus, Flatt has never beaten Rochette, ever, in Canada or otherwise. Saying Rochette is a World medalist is fine, the underlined part of your sentence is unnecessary if not somewhat disrespectful considering she lost her mother a few days before and most people wouldn't even be able to compete under those circumstances. :disapp:

Ashley Wagner wacked Rochette at the GPF. Ashley has never beaten Flatt, ever, in Canada or otherwise. So?

 

[FlattFan]

This is one of those rare cases where the CoP and the 6.0 System work differently. (I usually find that the end result of the two systems are the same.)

Mirai would have won under the 6.0 system but the CoP went for the points.

Imo, the CoP is good as a nitty gritty sport determinant but the 6.0 system has more of the essence of Figure Skating. The CoP does not capture the 'Finished' look of a Senior skater. However, the CoP does show Juveniles, Novices the work which leads to a great Senior.

Mirai would not have won under the 6.0 system.
Case in point, they always award the one with more triples and triple-triple combo. Sarah Hughes over Irina in 2002. Tara over Michelle in 1998.

In the SP, under 6.0, they would put Rachael first.
In the LP, her 7 triples would trump Mirai who didn't even have a Salchow.

 

[wallylutz]

My complaint was not that the tech panel was incorrect in penalizing Mirai's faulty jumps. My complaint is that under the CoP figure skating is becoming a sport that is of interest only to experts and insiders, and the general public is more and more being turned away.

This statement is completely unfair. In most cases, the winners are fairly clear these days. Except a few notable exceptions, the enjoyment of the sport has not been hindered by any close decisions within the CoP. The fact is fan base in this sport grew quite a bit in Asia, it's quite crazy over there in the past 4 years whereas the U.S. saw a significant appreciation of fans in Ice Dance as witnessed by expanded coverage in this discipline.

Under 6.0 judging, I, as an average fan, could easily form a well-reasoned opinion about which skater's performance I liked the best. Sometimes the expert judges agreed, sometimes they didn't, and sometimes the judges panel was split, with some judges agreeing with me and some holding a different opinion.

And nothing has changed in this regard. What makes you think Mirai would have defeated Rachael under 6.0 at the 2010 Nationals? Flatt didn't exactly skate like crap. Did Mirai have a Triple-Triple? Nope. Rachael did. See? Under 6.0, I could have easily justified why Mirai should be where she was - 3rd in the FS. I could even invent reasons like "she is not artistic enough or not as mature as Wagner" and start to play with the Technical Merit like Nagasu: 5.8/5.7 and give Wagner 5.7/5.8 with the nod going to Wagner for the 2nd mark on fairly subjective reasons.

Now, I am not really permitted to have an opinion at all.

Really, someone is holding a gun to your head and ask you to shut up? Seriously, why are there so many threads here and elsewhere debating the merits of certain outcomes in this past year? Aren't those people afraid of getting shot or something?

I may think that Mirai skated great, but here come the protocols the next day saying, oh you silly person, Mirai didn't skate well at all; you are just showing your ignorance of skating if you think she did.

uh...are we talking about those same people in the audience who can't tell the difference between a Triple Toe from a Double Salchow? :sheesh: Have you been to a live national / international competition at the senior level? Because if you have, you'd realize most of the people in that audience are pretty clueless when it comes to technical standard. Most of them can't even distinguish between the different jump types or how many rotations there are in a given jump. Don't mean to be condescending but that's what the average people are and there is nothing wrong with that. However, I certainly wouldn't rely on the crowd's reaction as any determinant factor and this isn't specific to figure skating. Any judged sport will have this kind of crowd effect, both positive and negative. When Fusar-Poli/Margaglio splashed big time on ice in Torino 06, the crowd still booed their marks. What can do you about that? Johnny Weir placed 6th in Vancouver, some people in the crowd booed as well - doesn't make the placement any less legitimate.

Honestly, I think what a reasonable person would have done if he/she is surprised by the outcome, is to go check the protocol, and then formulate an opinion on the fairness of such result after seeing it. It has happened that when I watch casually, I do not comprehend a certain decision right away. The protocol helps a great deal - doesn't mean I have to agree with the results, but at least, it helps me understand the other side's point of view and I can respect that. What you seem to suggest is unless a decision is to your liking, then it's no good. :disapp: Can you try to respect others may have a legitimate difference of opinion?

 

[wallylutz]

If the Mathman says this, it's really a deep problem. After all, you GET the math. And I completely agree with your point about how the CoP puts a barrier between the skaters and the audience. Most of us will stay with skating because our love for it is so deep even when we don't understand the results. But it will indeed drive potential fans away, because fandom starts looking like something they have to be qualified for. You can't say this often enough.

CoP is more than just math, it doesn't help if the said person doesn't actually understand and is able, for instance, to catch UR when watching.

Anyone who claims CoP is responsible for the decline of this sport - please explain to me why has it been so difficult to get an Olympic ticket to any of the figure skating events, even the Compulsory Dance?

Have any of you even bothered to try to get the Ladies SP and FS tickets in Vancouver? You know, the Ladies FS tickets in Vancouver - the lower level seats were going for $2,500~$3,000 a piece on the official secondary market. Seems to me, if this sport was in decline as many of you lamented, then it should have been very easy to get those tickets, no? Most other sports, except the finals in Ice hockey, in Vancouver were very easy to get tickets and they were mostly like $50, $80 a piece and you get good seat. In Figure Skating, Compulsory Dance lower level seats are $425 - Face Value and usually sold for above face value.

Finally, ISU World Team Trophy is again going to take place in April 2011 in Yokohama, Japan. The sponsors and ISU are going to award over $1 million in cash to the qualified skaters and their teams. I repeat, $1 million dollars. What other amateur sports award this kind of prize money for a semi-show / semi-competition event?

If the sport is in a serious decline as many have claimed, then there are certainly other things going on that show otherwise.

 

[fairly4]

i disagree the us athletes know what they have to do--if they don't make tier one way at nationals they have another chance in the internatioal.
you cant blame rachel rachel did what she was supposed to at worlds --finish in top 10. mirai could have been in tier one if she medal--she blew her long at worlds--don't blame usfsa for mirai screwup at worlds. she had her chance.

 

[wallylutz]

but is that CoP doing that to you, or you doing that to yourself. People - including me - balked at the CHANGE... then those that were excited about the mathmatics end of it started talking it up (as I recall you were excited about it at first?). Then as they tweak it more and more people get frustrated because it feels like it's taking 'so long' we're so used to instant gratification that we don't like the waiting, be it for the scores, the standings, the protocols, or for the judges to get it right.

Interestingly enough we're not arguing more or less over who should have won, and it still boils down to 'my favorite didn't win so I'm gonna cry the wuzrobbed song.'

Well said, it's just another lame excuse at the end of the day. The whole Nagasu vs. Flatt debacle boils down to: "My favorite didn't win, she was robbed!" It's not about the CoP and it's not about the judges or the Tech Panel. They are just scapegoats. Even if we are still under 6.0 and Nagasu didn't win, the same people will just invent another excuse.

Here is the part I don't get. I posted the HD clip of Nagasu's LP in Spokane. I pointed out the UR of her Triple Toes appear to be visually visible - in other words, no slow motion was required to detect them. So it begs to ask, given the stated justification, why don't those people say:

1) Oh I get it, thanks for pointing out, let me review my thinking in light of that

or

2) Nah, what UR? I can't see any


It's one thing people who claimed they can't see the errors, therefore, don't understand. I am sure a lot of those people who were perplexed in the audience were shown the errors made by Nagasu, they would have understood or at least open to reexamine their thinking in light of the explanation. Nope, some people, even after being told of the errors and the accompanying evidence to support it - categorically refused to be educated. Then, they can't be helped. The wuzrobbed crowd is annoying because they whine and whine and will claim the Earth will be destroyed unless things go their way. :sheesh:

 

[R.D.]

When posters talk of skating interest decline they really
mean in the US. because that's clearly what's happening (although it remains to be seen whether Lysacek's OGM will help reverse the trend)

 

[janetfan]

CoP is more than just math, it doesn't help if the said person doesn't actually understand and is able, for instance, to catch UR when watching.

Anyone who claims CoP is responsible for the decline of this sport - please explain to me why has it been so difficult to get an Olympic ticket to any of the figure skating events, even the Compulsory Dance?

Have any of you even bothered to try to get the Ladies SP and FS tickets in Vancouver? You know, the Ladies FS tickets in Vancouver - the lower level seats were going for $2,500~$3,000 a piece on the official secondary market. Seems to me, if this sport was in decline as many of you lamented, then it should have been very easy to get those tickets, no? Most other sports, except the finals in Ice hockey, in Vancouver were very easy to get tickets and they were mostly like $50, $80 a piece and you get good seat. In Figure Skating, Compulsory Dance lower level seats are $425 - Face Value and usually sold for above face value.

Finally, ISU World Team Trophy is again going to take place in April 2011 in Yokohama, Japan. The sponsors and ISU are going to award over $1 million in cash to the qualified skaters and their teams. I repeat, $1 million dollars. What other amateur sports award this kind of prize money for a semi-show / semi-competition event?

If the sport is in a serious decline as many have claimed, then there are certainly other things going on that show otherwise.

Interesting points Wally.
Do you have any insight into why ISU can't get a decent TV contract to televise Worlds in the USA?

I remember the 20 million + contract ISU had only a few years ago for broadcasts in the USA.
Last season ISU gave Worlds to NBC - what was it for $0.00?
That is one heck of a change from only a few years ago.
This year, the ISU Figure skating World Championships were not shown on network TV. I don't have the numbers - but the deal with Universal had to be a pittance compared to the ESPN/ABC deal that was not renewed.

I am sure seats for events in Torino were not cheap either - but 2, 500. is not the same as 20 million.

At the moment there is no US TV network with a bid to cover the 2014 Olympic games. I am sure someone will broadcast it and win with a much lower bid than in the past. Much, much lower.
Is part of that based on the fact that figure skating, once the jewel of Olympic broadcasts in the USA has seemingly lost much of it's lustre?

NBC got raked over the coals and skating this Olympic year did not have anywhere near the ratings from previous Olympics.

I am not so sure if that is a sign of such good health. Not when looking at the big picture , mass market, or whatever we want to call it.

Is this all Michelle's fault for getting older? Hmmm :think:

 

[wallylutz]

Interesting points Wally.
Do you have any insight into why ISU can't get a decent TV contract to televise Worlds in the USA?

There are many possible explanations and factors that can contribute to this change. One of the potential factor is the changing consumer behavior, in the same way that fewer people read paper newspapers and that newspapers and magazines have gone digital. Neither of them can be conclusively tied to smaller viewership as the definite answer.

I remember the 20 million + contract ISU had only a few years ago for broadcasts in the USA.
Last season ISU gave Worlds to NBC - what was it for $0.00?
That is one heck of a change from only a few years ago.

Care to cite some evidence to back up your numbers? I don't know where your numbers come from and would like to see some back up if you don't mind.

This year, the ISU Figure skating World Championships were not shown on network TV. I don't have the numbers - but the deal with Universal had to be a pittance compared to the ESPN/ABC deal that was not renewed.

Network TV has been cutting a lot of things, not just figure skating. Sometimes a show/event could be interesting and has good viewership but in an economic downturn, a lot of things get cut. Keep in mind, the viewership of figure skating is mostly female and an argument can be made that there is some bias against a sport where the viewers are predominantly women. Even in Canada, the network TV there has also been cutting figure skating coverage and the justification was that men's sports make money (i.e. hockey). It doesn't mean figure skating isn't popular or less popular than before, it's just a budget decision in the tough time.

I don't think there is a single or simplistic explanation that could make sense of all the changes.

I am sure seats for events in Torino were not cheap either - but 2, 500. is not the same as 20 million.

Apples and oranges - one is ticket sales @ $3,000 per seat and there were over 10,000 seats. The other was a TV contract. Both are important but not comparable.

At the moment there is no US TV network with a bid to cover the 2014 Olympic games. I am sure someone will broadcast it and win with a much lower bid than in the past. Much, much lower.
Is part of that based on the fact that figure skating, once the jewel of Olympic broadcasts in the USA has seemingly lost much of it's lustre?

That's debatable. Furthermore, I question the accuracy of your facts. For one thing, I do not doubt the 2014 Olympics will lack network TV coverage. As for your speculation, let's just say without a justification or reasoning, it's hard to agree or disagree with it.

NBC got raked over the coals and skating this Olympic year did not have anywhere near the ratings from previous Olympics.

Now, that's completely false. I know for a fact that the rating this year is the highest ever in years for Winter Games since the 1994 Lillehammer Olympics not held on U.S. soil. This has been widely reported, the 2010 Olympic was big success that may have saved NBC. I believe for you to even get this fact wrong speaks volume about the bias in you.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703791504575079511311711120.html

<<Ad buyers and analysts say that Olympics held on U.S. soil always attract more American viewers than those held abroad. TV viewing is also spread across more channels than it was eight years ago. Among Winter Games not held in the U.S., Vancouver is the most-watched since 1994.

NBC has been aggressive in using its Olympic-sized audience to promote itself, and it says it plans to increase the number of promotional ads for its new shows in the coming week. Most of its ads thus far have touted "Parenthood," a series based on the 1989 movie, and "The Marriage Ref," a reality show produced by comedian Jerry Seinfeld, according to television analyst Steve Sternberg.

"They have a chance to solidify and even improve their ratings into the spring," said Jackie Kulesza, senior vice president and broadcast buyer at Starcom, a media-buying firm owned by ad companyPublicis Groupe.

NBC said the Games have had a "halo effect" on other parts of its schedule, its sister networks and affiliated stations. The percentage of households watching its profitable morning show "Today" are up 7% from a year earlier, NBC said. It said "Nightly News" is up 21%, and late news on local stations is up 15% by that measure.

"The Olympics has a wonderful impact across all the businesses," said Alan Wurtzel, president of research and media development at NBC Universal.>>

 

[Mathman]

This statement is completely unfair. In most cases, the winners are fairly clear these days….

What you seem to suggest is unless a decision is to your liking, then it's no good. Can you try to respect others may have a legitimate difference of opinion?

I wasn't talking about the fairness of the outcome, or whether people have a difference of opinion. I was talking about the emotional investment of the audience.

I think the CoP reduces the immediacy of the audiences' experience when they choose to spend their entertainment dollar to take in a skating contest.

Here is the part I don't get. I posted the HD clip of Nagasu's LP in Spokane. I pointed out the UR of her Triple Toes appear to be visually visible - in other words, no slow motion was required to detect them. So it begs to ask, given the stated justification, why don't those people say:

1) Oh I get it, thanks for pointing out, let me review my thinking in light of that

or

2) Nah, what UR? I can't see any

The average casual fan is not going to rush home to youtube and start measuring rotations. "Getting it" the next day is not a satisfactory return for a person's sports and entertainment dollar.

 

[chloepoco]

My complaint was not that the tech panel was incorrect in penalizing Mirai's faulty jumps. My complaint is that under the CoP figure skating is becoming a sport that is of interest only to experts and insiders, and the general public is more and more being turned away.

Under 6.0 judging, I, as an average fan, could easily form a well-reasoned opinion about which skater's performance I liked the best. Sometimes the expert judges agreed, sometimes they didn't, and sometimes the judges panel was split, with some judges agreeing with me and some holding a different opinion.

Now, I am not really permitted to have an opinion at all. I may think that Mirai skated great, but here come the protocols the next day saying, oh you silly person, Mirai didn't skate well at all; you are just showing your ignorance of skating if you think she did.

Well...OK. Bye.

ITA with everything you said.

 

[janetfan]

Care to cite some evidence to back up your numbers? I don't know where your numbers come from and would like to see some back up if you don't mind.




Network TV has been cutting a lot of things, not just figure skating. Sometimes a show/event could be interesting and has good viewership but in an economic downturn, a lot of things get cut. Keep in mind, the viewership of figure skating is mostly female and an argument can be made that there is some bias against a sport where the viewers are predominantly women. Even in Canada, the network TV there has also been cutting figure skating coverage and the justification was that men's sports make money (i.e. hockey). It doesn't mean figure skating isn't popular or less popular than before, it's just a budget decision in the tough time.

I don't think there is a single or simplistic explanation that could make sense of all the changes.


That's debatable. Furthermore, I question the accuracy of your facts. For one thing, I do not doubt the 2014 Olympics will lack network TV coverage. As for your speculation, let's just say without a justification or reasoning, it's hard to agree or disagree with it.



Now, that's completely false. I know for a fact that the rating this year is the highest ever in years for Winter Games since the 1994 Lillehammer Olympics not held on U.S. soil. This has been widely reported, the 2010 Olympic was big success that may have saved NBC. I believe for you to even get this fact wrong speaks volume about the bias in you.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703791504575079511311711120.html


"The Olympics has a wonderful impact across all the businesses," said Alan Wurtzel, president of research and media development at NBC Universal.>>[/COLOR][/I]

Thanks for your post Wally.
I will see if I can dig up an article(s) about the ESPN/ISU fallout and ISU's major loss of skating revenues from the US market. We can agree that ESPN no longer broadcasts skating. I am sure the amount I quoted was close and have also read what a big chunk it represented in ISU's operating budget.

About no Olympic bid yet or lack of skating on network TV I agree there can and probably are several reasons - which you cited. But that doesn't change the fact skating is becoming an endangered species on US TV. I do not get Universal so I became more aware of some of these things.

I have no desire to see skating fail, for no Olympic covergae, etc. I like skating and the Olympics.
Like many I was not happy with the limited skating covergae from Vancouver but there were a couple of reasons. The late hour and the fact that other sports were of interest to US viewers.

My comments about NBC were based on infos released before the games. The ratings/revenues were better than expected - but not for skating. Half-pipe. skiing, snowboarding etc. were resposnible for the ratings boost over the initial bloodbath that was forecast..

There was hardly enough coverage of some of the skating events to have given NBC enough time to make money off the commercials. It is hard to deny we lost coverage - in the past we might see the last two groups and not just the last six skaters with Tugba thrown in an hour earlier.

Let me see if I can find some links to articles .........

ETA: mathman has posted this info.......

 

[Mathman]

Care to cite some evidence to back up your numbers? I don't know where your numbers come from and would like to see some back up if you don't mind.

Sadly, Janetfans numbers are right. I will Google some references if you want, but the $20,000,000 contract that the ISU had with U.S. network television was very widely reported at the time. (I believe ithis was $20,000,000 over five years, however.) If I remember correctly, this amounted to pretty close to half of the ISU's external funding at the time.

For 2009 Worlds, after strenuous efforts by Cinquanta to salvage some sort of deal, he basically gave up and had to offer the event for free.

Here is the USFSA's annual financial report for 2007-2008. Scroll down a little and you will see that they had total revenues of $100,000,000 from their contract with ABC television. (I believe this is $100,000,000 total for the whole period from 1994(?) to 2007.)

http://www.usfsa.org/About.asp?id=13

In 2008 the contract was not renewed. Although the USFSA tried to put a brave face on things, the new contract was indeed for $0 from the network. Instead, the USFSA had to essentially buy time from the network and recoup their cost by selling advertising. That is, it was the responsibility of USFS to line up advertisers, not the television networks. The only profit the USFSA made was whatever net they had left over from individual sponsorships.

To see the effect of this change, here is the USFSA's official financial audit for 2008. Scroll down to page 9 and you will see:

Total fund-raising:

2007: $10,787,544
2008: $624,122

http://www.usfsa.org/Content/2008 Audit Financials.pdf

Yes, they went from 10 million to six hundred thousand (maybe they should ask Yu-na Kim for a loan. )

As for the quotes in blue in your post, note that these are mostly from NBC executives trying to act brave by whistling past the graveyard. NBC lost tens of millions of dollars on their Olympic contract, which expires after the 2012 simmer games. They won't touch the Sochi games with a ten-foot pole.

 

[janetfan]

Sadly, Janetfans numbers are right. I will Google some references if you want, but the $20,000,000 contract that the ISU had with U.S. network television was very widely reported at the time. (I believe ithis was $20,000,000 over five years, however.) If I remember correctly, this amounted to pretty close to half of the ISU's external funding at the time.

For 2009 Worlds, after strenuous efforts by Cinquanta to salvage some sort of deal, he basically gave up and had to offer the event for free.

Here is the USFSA's annual financial report for 2007-2008. Scroll down a little and you will see that they had total revenues of $100,000,000 from their contract with ABC television. (I believe this is $100,000,000 total for the whole period from 1994(?) to 2007.)

http://www.usfsa.org/About.asp?id=13

In 2008 the contract was not renewed. Although the USFSA tried to put a brave face on things, the new contract was indeed for $0 from the network. Instead, the USFSA had to essentially buy time from the network and recoup their cost by selling advertising. That is, it was the responsibility of USFS to line up advertisers, not the television networks. The only profit the USFSA made was whatever net they had left over from individual sponsorships.

To see the effect of this change, here is the USFSA's official financial audit for 2008. Scroll down to page 9 and you will see:

Total fund-raising:

2007: $10,787,544
2008: $624,122

http://www.usfsa.org/Content/2008 Audit Financials.pdf

Yes, they went from 10 million to six hundred thousand (maybe they should ask Yu-na Kim for a loan. )

As for the quotes in blue in your post, note that these are mostly from NBC executives trying to act brave by whistling past the graveyard. NBC lost tens of millions of dollars on their Olympic contract, which expires after the 2012 simmer games. They won't touch the Sochi games with a ten-foot pole.

NBC is for sale....comcast looks like a possible buyer. GE does not make it a habit to sell it's best money making assets......

 

[mskater93]

I know a little about GE's business model from graduate school - if they aren't #1 or #2 in an industry, they get out

 

[Tonichelle]

When posters talk of skating interest decline they really
mean in the US. because that's clearly what's happening (although it remains to be seen whether Lysacek's OGM will help reverse the trend)

it won't be enough for the media since our ladies are rebuilding their status in world competition circles. That's why in the 80s Boitano, not Hamilton, is creditted more for bringing men's skating 'back to life'... nevermind Scott won his gold FIRST ending a many year drought... it's all about Boitano.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

It's worth mentioning, however, that the debacle of NBC and the Vancouver 2010 games largely had nothing to do with figure skating. The economic downturn made EVERYONE worried about spending a lot of money on advertising, which drove down prices. And while advertising revenue ended up not too badly, the higher price tag (which included things like online streaming, something not done much in previous winter games) made recouping money impossible. Toss on an extremely fractured television audience, nothing's gonna return to their glory days.

Mathman's essential point is correct, though. If the audience doesn't get what they pay for - a clear winner that they adore - they're gonna be disappointed and they leave. Of course, I think blaming COP for that is wrongheaded. But I think the basic fact that we don't think the audience needs to be informed is something that will frustrate me to no end, however. It was presented as a performance-based-entertainment for so long that actually asking audiences to judge it as a sport, you know - with rules.