What will the 2010/2011 bring us in ICE DANCE?

[dorispulaski]

Presumably, after all the experience of C&Z, S&S, and D&W this fall, Marina should be able to explain to V&M how the GW is supposed to be skated this year under the new rules.

By all accounts, V&M need very little training time to get something, so I do not expect they will have a huge problem, other than perhaps in the Shoot the Duck step-that looks to me like it might be hard on your shins.

 

[colleen o'neill]

I bet skate Canada would give them a bye even if there is no exact precedent ...as long as V/M feel they're ready to compete. And I'm sure they won't be rushing back merely to hold their ranking.

I'm more worried about S/B feeling pressure to return ( themselves). Much as I was looking forward to seeing them this year , I hope they take it cautiously, as well. Too easy for other injuries to occur when you're compensating for one that's not yet fully healed.

 

[herios]

I came across this article today about Crone & Poirier:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...er-put-calamities-behind-them/article1796051/

Were all these known ? I certainly have not heard about their problems, was it because all the attention was on V/M and their quest for the Olympics?

Did they brushed everything under the rug on purpose?

 

[dorispulaski]

I knew about the non-arriving skates, not the rest. How about anyone else?

I wonder about the timing of this interview by the Lane/C/P camp-is this supposed to influence the judges that C/P are lots better than W/P? After all, SA is a face-off between the 2 teams.

 

[tangos]

I came across this article today about Crone & Poirier:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...er-put-calamities-behind-them/article1796051/

Were all these known ? I certainly have not heard about their problems, was it because all the attention was on V/M and their quest for the Olympics?

Did they brushed everything under the rug on purpose?

It appears the C/P and Scarboro camp have always kept injuries relatively quiet.

I knew about the non-arriving skates, not the rest. How about anyone else?

I wonder about the timing of this interview by the Lane/C/P camp-is this supposed to influence the judges that C/P are lots better than W/P? After all, SA is a face-off between the 2 teams.

This may not be a recent interview.

 

[dorispulaski]

BEVERLEY SMITH
Globe and Mail Update
Published Thursday, Nov. 11, 2010 11:17PM EST
Last updated Thursday, Nov. 11, 2010 11:19PM EST

Carol Lane is quoted. And the publication date was yesterday.

It's interesting that the Scarboro camp picked just now to do a disk dump of past injuries. What it means, who can say.

 

[herios]

Carol Lane is quoted. And the publication date was yesterday.

It's interesting that the Scarboro camp picked just now to do a disk dump of past injuries. What it means, who can say.

If there is a strategy in the Scarboro camp to pormote C/P at the moment, I think is less to the expense of W/P and more to make them a threat for the world ice dance upper hierarchy.
You have to "smell blood" and unleash the "killing instinct", when V/M are out, Kerr's have injury problems, F/S need to go to the taylor, etc, because there are a few steps only and you are on the podium.
It will be interesting to see how they measure against D/W, what kind of gap will be there, especially the TES scores.

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, I think the amount of the gap will be interesting, as well as the matchup between the other 3 teams that are realistically in the hunt for the medals with them.

 

[colleen o'neill]

:disapp: Oh, Boy.. and Oy,Vey..I do try to look for the positives, but I'm beginning to get so annoyed with all the water being carried for Carol Lane & Co...and it's far too early in the day to put on some nice music and have a glass of wine.

I knew about the skate fiasco , and I think I knew about the food poisoning , but so many skaters have come down with food poisoning while abroad over the years, I can't be totally sure. As with most athletes , I think most skater's camps are pretty quiet about illness or injury during the competitive season, unless it becomes obvious. But the stories about the trials and tribulations usually come out immediately post-season or just as the next season is gearing up..this comes a bit too far into the season for me to feel absolutely comfortable with it. Oh, I know Bev Smith might have been saving it up for a few weeks..but I kind of doubt it.There were a number of articles written pre-SC , to drum up interest..why not then ?

Anyway, I don't think there was as huge a discrepancy as the article implies between the Oly and World's results. Let's see , both D/S 's and K/N were out of the picture at World's ( that's three placements right there ).. anyone else pull out , from the top 13 at Oly's ? Then, some couples may have had better or worse skates at either event. ( one of the positives anyone can see about CoP is that nowadays , good / bad skates do get reflected in the marks, most often ; not always to the degree we would like , but still.. ) ... Lane makes a point of how hard C/P worked between events , OK , but others may just have lost all their oomph ( or have been living through horror stories of their own ). ..So I think Lane and the article overstate the degree to which C/P may have been treated badly at Olys, and/or imply a greater degree of improvement than was actually achieved by World's.

I don't say it's impossible that they may have been under- marked at Oly's , but certainly not by seven placements. I don't recall a huge "wuz-robbed" outcry at the time. So if a claim of 1 or 2..or even 3 placements difference was being made ( after allowing for retirements ), I'd be viewing this with a less jaundiced eye.

Once again, I must walk the dogs, but I'll be back with more..

 

[backoutsideedge]

Carol Lane is quoted. And the publication date was yesterday.

It's interesting that the Scarboro camp picked just now to do a disk dump of past injuries. What it means, who can say.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. The food poisoning and shingles have been previously reported in the press I believe. The only thing new here is the knee injury from last summer.

All this article does is show how how tough C&P are.

 

[museksk8r]

All this article does is show how how tough C&P are.

I agree! They are real fighters and a true inspiration!

 

[herios]

Anyway, I don't think there was as huge a discrepancy as the article implies between the Oly and World's results. Let's see , both D/S 's and K/N were out of the picture at World's ( that's three placements right there ).. anyone else pull out , from the top 13 at Oly's ? Then, some couples may have had better or worse skates at either event. ( one of the positives anyone can see about CoP is that nowadays , good / bad skates do get reflected in the marks, most often ; not always to the degree we would like , but still.. ) ... Lane makes a point of how hard C/P worked between events , OK , but others may just have lost all their oomph ( or have been living through horror stories of their own ). ..So I think Lane and the article overstate the degree to which C/P may have been treated badly at Olys, and/or imply a greater degree of improvement than was actually achieved by World's.

..

Add to the missing teams B/A too, so that makes 4 teams ahad of them, so to come 10th was actually to be expected from the get-go.
They overtook C/L (not surprising, considering how bad they skated) and Hoffman / Zavozin and Samuelson / Bates.
So doesn't look like a out of ordinary in COP world. In the old days, would have been a lot, but not anymore.

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, and it appears to be Bev Smith's job just now, selling C&P's virtues:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/ice-dancings-new-look/article1795527/

Yes, C/P got a higher mark on the GW than D/W (who were not at the same events, nor did they have the same judging panels). Yes D/W made mistakes. If a D/W fan wanted to compare, they could equally claim that D/W got a higher score than C/P on the midline step, the rotational lift, and the twizzles, much higher PCS, outscored C/P on the GW first segment, even with a lower level, and scored higher overall. And it would all be a big nothing, not article worthy, as scores are not that portable between competitions.

For those interested

Davis & White

1STw4 6.00 1.07 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 7.07
2 NtMiSt4 8.00 2.00 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 10.00
3 GW1Se3 5.00 0.71 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 1 2 5.71
4 GW2Se1 3.50 0.79 0 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 4.29
5 RoLi4 4.00 1.21 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 2 3 5.21
6 Li+TRANS 0.00 0.00 - - - - - - - - - 0.00
Base 26.50
TES 32.28
PCS 34.69
TOTAL 66.97


Crone & Poirier

1 RoLi4 4.00 1.00 2 2 1 2 2 2 3 2 2 5.00
2 GW1Se3 5.00 0.57 0 1 0 0 2 1 2 2 2 5.57
3 GW2Se4 8.00 0.57 1 1 0 0 2 1 2 1 2 8.57
4 NtMiSt3 6.50 1.43 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 1 7.93
5 Li+TRANS 0.00 0.00 - - - - - - - - - 0.00
6 STw4 6.00 0.93 2 2 1 2 2 3 1 2 2 6.93
Base 29.50
TES 34.00
PCS 28.95
TOTAL 62.95

And comments on this are saying C/P are better than V/M, which is pure craziness IMO.

The one important point is that GW segment 2 has a lot of point difference in base values, and the placings in the SD are more strongly in the hands of the technical committee than we have seen to date in ice dance. This is now like the UR rules in singles.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Well I thought that walk might cool me off , but I spent the whole time fuming. ( But I didn't take it out on the dogs.)...and thanks, B/A makes four.

One of the things that annoys me most about this kind of reportage is that it encourages an unrealistic expectation in those who may not follow the sport really closely. Then when those expectations aren't realized , they get turned off the sport. Or, it makes the Canadian skaters seem like whiners to the rest of the world, when they actually may have a much more realistic idea of where they stand in the scheme of things , themselves.

All these young athletes who continue through to the elite level are tough !.. If anyone compiled a list of the injuries , mishaps , hardships suffered by, say, the top 20 in the world ( in any of the four disciplines ) over the last two years , the litany would probably discourage anyone from allowing their offspring to take up the sport...But I"m sorry to say, I don't think C/P's toughness is the point of the article. The point of the article is to imply they've been robbed in the past, and deserve better than they've been getting. Commentators have been so mean to them ( when they were suffering ), it made Carol Lane throw up...I'm sorry , I have to..

No, there's been a steady ( sometimes subtle, sometimes not so subtle ) pumping up of the L/R school in Canada over the past few years ,and it's making me more and more uncomfortable. There was so much hype over working with Chris Dean ..it was announced early in the off-season IIRC.. I was quite excited ,thinking they may have gone away to work with him for some weeks. And I thought , good for L/R they recognize that these kids now need more than they are able to give, or that they need some additional input , or they need to work, at least for a while , in an environment where they're not necessarily the cream of the crop...Turns out it was one week and he came into their comfort zone...Some people are saying good for C/P for going for a different look...But I say it's their same look , it's just that the choreography embraces it. (An abstract style and a theme of alienation go a long way to gloss over an inter- partner disconnect.) Dean has done the best for them that he could have done ( or perhaps that anyone could have done ) to give them a good program that hides their weaknesses..But the weaknesses are still there , and unless something is done to address them , they won't ever have a chance of challenging a team like Meryl and Charlie, who have top notch technique..and more than technique...I'd prefer if C/P were adopting that 'different' look out of choice, not necessity.

None of this is the skaters' fault ! Vanessa and Paul are tough , talented, accomplished young athletes who deserve to be given the chance to be the best that they can be..they're not being given that chance , and it makes me angry.

Gee..I think this is going to be a three -post rant..I'll have to come back.

 

[i love to skate]

Oh for heaven's sake people, what is the big deal??? :disapp:

Vanessa and Paul just won their first big international and are getting some press about it. Skate America is a very lackluster competition and C/P are the team that is moving up in the field. Who else is Smith supposed to write about?

The reporter did not say that C/P are going to beat D/W or that they are on the elite level yet. She simlpy pointed out that they had the highest marks in one aspect of the SD and their coach stated that they worked very hard and had some rough injuries/situations. C/P should have been higher at the Olympics but their coach pointed out that they didn't skate well enough. I hardly think that Smith new job is to "sing their praises" as one poster said. It was an article on the Short Dance and mentioned a variety of teams!

The things skating fans find issues with...

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

1. doris, I think it's more noteworthy when a team lower on the totem pole (like Crone/Poirier) do better than a team higher on the totem pole (like Davis/White). The scores are meaningless, and there's a variety of reasons that's so (and why it's actually not all that noteworthy.), but I don't get why people seem frustrated by the fact that saying "Crone/Poirier did better than Davis/White on TES." I think it's noteworthy that Paul/Islam beat C/P on TES at Skate Canada, even if I don't think that'll be the case at Worlds.

2. What do people think of all the news about just how much Virtue was struggling last season?

3. Crone/Poirier had one flawed skate at the Olympics (OD), one problem skate (CD) and one clean skate (FD). They were marked appropriately at all times, imo. Their progress at Worlds was thanks to having three clean skates and clearly working extremely hard. All athletes do that, but not everyone's successful (C/L, S/B).

4. Colleen, I do think your disappointment with the rise of the Lane school is colouring your take on Smith's articles. I do think you can argue C/P were undermarked in the past (2009 Worlds). Additionally, Smith has always been a very active booster of Canadian skaters. i love to skate, I think this quote from Smith is problematic:

"Meryl Davis and Charlie White of the United States, had to deal with the newness of the dance at the very first Grand Prix event, at NHK Trophy in Japan a month ago, and many were shocked that judges awarded them only the most rudimentary level of difficulty (level one, as level four signifies the most difficult) for one of the two Golden Waltz segments. This for the Olympic and world silver medalists? The archrivals of Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir?" (emphasis mine)

Because she doesn't go on to explain any of the reasons this might have been so (a new dance, strict technical panel) and because she focuses very much the Golden Waltz sequence to the exclusion of everything else in the SD, it does come off as boosterism for C/P. I'm fine with it, but colleen's complaint about the expectations it could raise are valid

 

[dorispulaski]

1. doris, I think it's more noteworthy when a team lower on the totem pole (like Crone/Poirier) do better than a team higher on the totem pole (like Davis/White). The scores are meaningless, and there's a variety of reasons that's so (and why it's actually not all that noteworthy.), but I don't get why people seem frustrated by the fact that saying "Crone/Poirier did better than Davis/White on TES." I think it's noteworthy that Paul/Islam beat C/P on TES at Skate Canada, even if I don't think that'll be the case at Worlds.

I thought the story was that D&W had some serious flaws in their GW segment 2. (which is one of 5 scored elements in the SD). Zhiganshina & Gaszi, for example, also did better on the GW Segment 2 than D&W. Kerr&Kerr did better than D/W on GW Seg2. It is about as much news as that Patrick Chan, when falling on a 3A, scored less on the 3A than those many male skaters that landed a 3A successfully this fall. Trying to personalize this as long term betterness of C/P, rather than as a failure of D/W, seems to me to be at best, bad reporting, and at worst, boosterism.

2. What do people think of all the news about just how much Virtue was struggling last season?

It's not surprising to me. My husband had a form of compartment syndrome. It's main signature was pain, excruciating pain. I hope this surgery fixes Tessa's legs and that she 1. Feels better permanently. 2. Returns at least to show skating 3. Returns to competitive skating, if she wants to. I don't know why it was important for them to minimize the pain last year, but it's her condition, and her right.

When Tessa had a wheelchair waiting for her at 4CC's, it was evident to me at least how much pain she was dealing with. Young, attractive women don't go out of their way to travel in wheelchairs unless it's necessary.

3. Crone/Poirier had one flawed skate at the Olympics (OD), one problem skate (CD) and one clean skate (FD). They were marked appropriately at all times, imo. Their progress at Worlds was thanks to having three clean skates and clearly working extremely hard. All athletes do that, but not everyone's successful (C/L, S/B).

Yes, that is true.

4. Colleen, I do think your disappointment with the rise of the Lane school is colouring your take on Smith's articles. I do think you can argue C/P were undermarked in the past (2009 Worlds). Additionally, Smith has always been a very active booster of Canadian skaters. i love to skate, I think this quote from Smith is problematic:

"Meryl Davis and Charlie White of the United States, had to deal with the newness of the dance at the very first Grand Prix event, at NHK Trophy in Japan a month ago, and many were shocked that judges awarded them only the most rudimentary level of difficulty (level one, as level four signifies the most difficult) for one of the two Golden Waltz segments. This for the Olympic and world silver medalists? The archrivals of Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir?" (emphasis mine)

Because she doesn't go on to explain any of the reasons this might have been so (a new dance, strict technical panel) and because she focuses very much the Golden Waltz sequence to the exclusion of everything else in the SD, it does come off as boosterism for C/P. I'm fine with it, but colleen's complaint about the expectations it could raise are valid

Yes, that's how I saw it, particularly in the light of the previous article. Bev Smith can write anything she likes, of course, but I detest having a team/skater shoved down my throat as the next best thing by an overwrought PR machine. I first remember being really annoyed by this sort of stuff at US Nationals, Providence, RI, 1995, when it amused the heck out of me that Sydney Vogel crushed Tara Lipinski in Juniors. Tara's PR flack had all this laudatory stuff all over the local papers about her.

Ultimately, this stuff didn't hurt Tara, but you and colleen are right that unrealistic expectations can be damaging to a team.

 

[colleen o'neill]

OK. Let me get the rest of this off my chest..

I realize that to some, I must sound like I detest Lane & Razgulajevs (sp?)...but I don't , actually. I'm quite willing to give them credit for what they do well.. I just think that they have limitations that are not only ignored in the media by Skate Canada , commentators and the Canadian press ... (which is to some degree understandable) ..but are not being recognized / admitted , or addressed behind the scenes. This will only hamper their skaters in the long run and will not help L/R to become top coaches at the international level, if that's what they're aiming for. What makes it worse...I can see no good reason for it. There is no excuse for their couples to have such ghastly costumes ,and no reason why those girls (especially) should continue to have such poor posture / carriage. Maybe they can ignore the frustrated fans agonizing about it on the forums ( though you'd think the sheer volume would make them think there might be a valid point, there ); maybe they truly can't see it themselves, but don't tell me there's no-one at Skate Canada who could give them guidance .

There is no reason why they couldn't hire a better ballet ( or yoga, or whatever) teacher, or give their students more time with such a teacher. There's no reason they couldn't have costumes that fit and flatter their skaters. No amount of PR will alter these facts.OTOH , if they made these changes everyone, themselves included, would win.

I have no objection to SC getting behind their coaches, but it's beginning to feel like playing favourites..one way or another we've had to hear Carol competed against T/D and that Juris was a Jr. world champion. As my mother would have said , " What's that got to do with the price of eggs ?"..W/P have a team of coaches with much grander competitive resumes, two of which are sought - after choreographers , as well .. any mentions ?

 

[tangos]

OK. Let me get the rest of this off my chest..

............. I have no objection to SC getting behind their coaches, but it's beginning to feel like playing favourites..one way or another we've had to hear Carol competed against T/D and that Juris was a Jr. world champion. As my mother would have said , " What's that got to do with the price of eggs ?"..W/P have a team of coaches with much grander competitive resumes, two of which are sought - after choreographers , as well .. any mentions ?

Honestly, one article that mentions their hurdles and their coach's accomplishments, and it is considered blatant favoritism.

It seems to me that it is not "sheer volume of posters" but rather the same posters that continually remark about C/P weaknesses and L/R failures without regard for any
improvements.

This was an article written by an journalist. No whining, pushing, promoting, plots or strategies implied.

 

[colleen o'neill]

OK.. tangos..I'm not trying to upset anyone ( although I am airing my own upset) ...don't misunderstand me, it's not just this article , it's this article , quoting their coach ,about how they've suffered and how unfairly they've been treated ,plus another article (two in a matter of a couple of days ) about SA in general, but that features C/P heavily, both by Beverly Smith.. There was a feature on the CBC coverage of SC about their work with Chris Dean, with Carol Lane front and center. Plus mention after mention of C/P and the Chris Dean program in the off season. No opportunity to mention it was ignored.

The thing that makes this not OK with me ,in this specific case ( besides creating expectations and a sense of past grievances in the public ), is that we have a second couple at SA who should have an equal chance to take silver ( but a chance at gold is not really realistic for either one ).

And I believe that C/P's flaws have been noted on many, many forums, blogs, you name it. It's not all just hate-speech ( though there will be haters who chime in ) ,but mostly honest and often very knowledgeable critique.

C/P beat W/P at nationals by a very narrow margin,and many eyebrows were raised because the deciding marks were not given in the technical scores (C/P's strength ),but in the marks that include presentation and expression ( C/P's weakness, and as it happens , W/P's strength ). Considering the slim margin , I don't think it's right ,and neither should Skate Canada , that one team should be given so much greater weight in the press than the other. SC should be doing their darndest to get coverage for both.

And Pogue , you make a fair point about me possibly letting my dismay with the rise of L/R colour my opinion of the article, since I know I've at least partially voiced that dismay in the past. But let me re-assure you ,I feel Ms.Smith writes some good articles , but she's been guilty of letting things like the seven placement discrepancy creep into her articles before, over the years. It may not be carrying water for anyone , it may be no more than just making the story more dramatic..but she's been around skating long enough, and writing long enough to know what she's doing. And while C/P's hardships are worthy of notice (even if the timing of this re-airing might be a bit suspect ),throwing in Carol Lane's throwing up.. is pure Sob Sister tactics.

As regards my dismay ( I can't actually decide if it's dismay, or apprehension ).. Look , L/R have obviously taught their students well , insofar as what they do with their feet goes, and I guess also in knowing where you partner is on the ice, etc. They can get in and out of lifts smoothly. Kudos. They've managed to keep their current two top teams together for years, and this is the result...

But wait a minute, the good news is also the bad news .. they've had these couples for years , from the beginning, in fact. They've been together 8 yrs , 10 yrs...something like that. That the girls, most noticeably, should have the posture problems they do at this stage is , frankly, apalling.You will not see this in the major ice dance schools from any other major skating country. Not the French , not the Italians , certainly not the Russians ( if their shoulders get up it's a choreographic / stylistic effect ) , and not the Americans ( especially Z/S ). These skaters , almost universally, have good carriage. .. Not all good schools always have great costumes, so let's leave that aside..( though I don't see why L/R's shouldn't have them. )

I'm dismayed for the skaters they have now , who could have grown up with that training and it would now be second nature. Where would they be placing if they had, I wonder? And I'm apprehensive for their future skaters. Of course, the talented kids want to go to the best coaches ( Often that means ,the coaches whose skaters are getting the best results ) what about those kids' prospects ?

But I still don't think it's a hopeless case, as long as people can be objective and admit that the skaters and coaches have flaws that could stand some improvement. They don't need to make a fanfare or even admit it publicly.. Just go ahead and do something about it. The results will speak for themselves

We have coaches who really tackle these problems in other disciplines.. look what Richard Gauthier has done for Meagan Duhamel..and full credit to the Wirtz's.. they got Dylan & Kirsten to the ballet classes he so desperately needed to match his partner and smooth the rough edges ( and her shoulders are under much better control this year ).I'm thrilled for them,skaters and coaches ..last year ,I had a few doubts as to whether W/W would really go for it. Bravo.

I'm not just being hateful about L/R , I would be happy to see them do better.. It's obvious to me that they could. It's not just PR and politics anymore.