Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

[Mathman]

(Yamaguchi) defended a World title on her first try which Kwan did only once in a long career...

That could go either way. You could fault Michelle for defending her title only once, or you could praise her for regaining the title three times. :yes:

These are the clean 3-3 combinations Irina has done in her career in international competition:...

Michelle has ten to Irina's nine. Tada!

I'm not too sure about comparing Sasha and Yuna either... totally different? Maybe that's just me?

Indeed. Yuna and Sasha are complete opposites in almost every respect. :scratch:

Michelle is an American icon but I'm sure Russia, while respecting Michelle, thinks of Irina as legendary. And vice versa. Yu-Na is most definitely a legend in Korea already.

Utterly no comparison. Yu-na Kim bestrides Korea as did the Colossus the harbor of Rhodes. Michelle Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, Dorothy Hamill, Janet Lynn and Peggy Fleming together did not have such an impact on their nation.

 

[ks777]

Exactly. Thank you.

Irina wasnt even the best pure jumper of her own time. Volchkova and Sebeysten were far more talented jumpers but unfortunately were too inconsistent and the rest of their skating was mediocre and blah.

There you go. You just have no clue about what you are talking about. Volchkova and Sebestyen were NOT better than Slutskaya, period. They were inconsistant because they were NOT good jumpers!

 

[herro]

There you go. You just have no clue about what you are talking about. Volchkova and Sebestyen were NOT better than Slutskaya, period. They were inconsistant because they were NOT good jumpers!

Ok, I might sound really one-sided in this discussion by this point but I'm honestly not siding with anyone to attack you, ks777. pangtongfan said Volchkova and Sebestyen were "better jumpers" than Irina. Not sure if I would necessarily say better (although their jumps were fantastic... and I think I prefer their overall jumping style to Irina's - like their takeoff and landing positions, and I also agree that their jumps were more "pure" as in more "textbook"), but "better jumper" is what pangtongfan said.

 

[jaylee]

Utterly no comparison. Yu-na Kim bestrides Korea as did the Colossus the harbor of Rhodes. Michelle Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, Dorothy Hamill, Janet Lynn and Peggy Fleming together did not have such an impact on their nation.

Buahahaha. I can almost SEE the towering statue of Yu-Na now...

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Ok. I feel the need to clarify my comparison of Yuna and Sasha since that seems to be a big issue. For me, both are great skaters but both suffer from competition nerves. I also believe that had Sasha been born five years later, she'd been much more successful in her career. I am a self-professed uber but I also understand that Michelle wasn't always perfect, but the arguement of "AT HER PEAK" I do believe that Michelle could've / would've / should've beaten Yuna. I believe that to be true under both systems. Yuna under 6.0 would've been on par with Sasha. Growing up under CoP, I believe Sasha would've been on par with Yuna and Mao.

As for Irina's jumps compared to Yuna's - I still don't see how Yuna is the superior jumper. Irina had the complete, fully rotated, confident jumping package. Yuna has a spectacular 3 x 3. I also believe that outside of Midori, Irina is the greatest jumper of all time. Her edges were clean, jumps high. The only issue I ever had was her sometimes wonky ride out but the power was spectacular.

Let's also discuss hardware for a second - I do understand the sentiment that a fan cannot discount the OGM simply because a favorite doesn't have one. But I do believe that Kwan's five world championships offsets her lack of an OGM - just like I don't believe that Sarah or Tara's wins means they are the greatest skaters. Both of these young women will be remembered, but only Michelle is the legend. The same is true for Irina. Not sure how each plays in the other's country, but that's how I see it. Just like Yuna is Michael Jordan in Korea but I don't doubt that Michael Jordan is simply "that tall, American, black guy who used to play basketball or something" in other countries...

And Mathman, your boy is showing - Dorothy Hamill's impact was felt by suburban girls all over the country via our haircuts!

 

[miki88]

Back to the original question-- yeah, they probably could be competitive with one another, but let's face it, it's great they never competed against one another. Yu Na, growing up, was inspired by Michelle. Like Lulu was by Peggy, Kristi by Dorothy, Oksana by Jill...

There would probably have been some pretty close contests between these two, but having them skate in different eras means we get TWO legends, not just one. So who wins? Skating does. We, the fans, win.

I know! Even as it is, this thread gets revamped every season. I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like if they DID skate against each other.

 

[aftertherain]

Actually that sounds like Kwan fans far more than anyone else.

Pffbt. Only if you go on MKF. That's why I left.

And puhlease, Yuna's fans are 10x more "powerful". They have more ways of communication/technology now than Kwan's fans had back then.

And if you subscribe to her official page on Facebook (I admit it, I did it) ... Oh dear heavens ... there's either a new picture or a new "montage" every. single. day. I like Yuna, I really do, but it's too much. D:

Buahahaha. I can almost SEE the towering statue of Yu-Na now...

You mean, it's not there? *shocked*

They'll probably carve her face into a mountain ... or have an everlasting ice-sculpture of her as well ...

 

[herro]

I see where you're coming from, Kwanford Wife. But with respect to the Yuna and Sasha comparison, my opinion is that they were both subject to tremendous pressure: Yuna was skating with her whole country on her back (with some love from Canada as well) while Sasha was skating under high expectations and the doubts that she would never skate clean (which I'm sure must have been exceedingly stressful on her). However, I think Yuna dealt with the pressure well while Sasha cracked (not always, but many times) under all the weight.

Under CoP, I still honestly can't see Kwan beating Kim, but I can see it under the 6.0 system (if she skates one of her best skates - I LOVE her red violin program). I'm not sure if Sasha would be on par with Yuna and Mao exactly, but it would definitely be an added dimension to their rivalry. I think under the 6.0 system, things would have been closer for sure. Kim wouldn't skate away with such huge leads and results would be closer.

As far as the Irina and Yuna comparison goes (about their jumps), it's my opinion that Yuna's jumps are better in that they have more speed going in and out of the jumps (one of my pet peeves with Irina's jumps were her landings - she often lacked speed and did not land on a definitive outside edge), they are more consistent, they have terrific distance across the ice. I can't deny that Irina, however, had a consistent loop jump. If we compare triple triples directly, I think it's clear that Yuna's were better. From being at competitions, I think that Yuna's jumps are also much more impressive than Irina's when you see them live. Yuna's have more of the "wow" factor in that respect.

I totally agree with you're last point about favorites and skater longevity though.

 

[herro]

You mean, it's not there? *shocked*

They'll probably carve her face into a mountain ... or have an everlasting ice-sculpture of her as well ...

OMG that's such a scary thought haha.

 

[MrScroogeMcDuck]

I'm waiting for the butter sculpture.

 

[Tonichelle]

Is Michelle a legend in Russia and is Irina a legend in the USA?

Is Irina a legend in Russia, though? Is she still used to describe skating as Michelle Kwan is in the media?

I'm in no way a fan of MK, but Michelle Kwan (along with Dorothy Hamill, Peggy Flemming, Dick Button, Scott Hamilton and Brian Boitano) is one of the more recognizable in the US - yes - but in other parts of the world (sports savvy of course).

Katarina Witt, though, seems to be the real International legend.... and Henie

 

[jaylee]

Ok. I feel the need to clarify my comparison of Yuna and Sasha since that seems to be a big issue. For me, both are great skaters but both suffer from competition nerves.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify, but this truthfully doesn't clarify much for me, someone who remembers Sasha pretty well. Yu-Na has suffered from severe injuries in her career, and in spite of that, her results are far superior to Sasha and very impressive overall. As a competitor, Yu-Na's nerves held up better than most at the biggest competition of her life skating right after her biggest rival did the SP of her life, and then again in the LP skating before the same rival. Throughout her whole career, actually, barring injury, Yu-Na delivered consistently and there isn't a single type of competition that she entered without winning at least once, from the JGPF and Junior Worlds to the senior GPF, senior Worlds, 4CCs, and the Olympics. When the door was open she walked through it, or if it was closed she found a way to pry it open, as many had predicted that someone else would win the 2006 Junior Worlds, the 2006 GPF, etc. That takes competitive nerve, guts, whatever you call it, to deliver when you have the chance.

On the other hand, how many times did Sasha walk through that door? Her deer-in-the-headlights look before taking on the ice for her 2006 Olympics LP was a giveaway of the performance that was going to come, and rather characteristic of the kind of competitor she was her entire life--an unreliable one.

The two aren't comparable in any way, not in their strengths as skaters, not in their results, not in their competitive approach. And Yu-Na has completed far more clean LPs than Sasha ever did.

And if you subscribe to her official page on Facebook (I admit it, I did it) ... Oh dear heavens ... there's either a new picture or a new "montage" every. single. day. I like Yuna, I really do, but it's too much. D:

Heh. I like Yu-Na, and I am not subscribed to her page on Facebook.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I see where you're coming from, Kwanford Wife. But with respect to the Yuna and Sasha comparison, my opinion is that they were both subject to tremendous pressure: Yuna was skating with her whole country on her back (with some love from Canada as well) while Sasha was skating under high expectations and the doubts that she would never skate clean (which I'm sure must have been exceedingly stressful on her). However, I think Yuna dealt with the pressure well while Sasha cracked (not always, but many times) under all the weight.

Under CoP, I still honestly can't see Kwan beating Kim, but I can see it under the 6.0 system (if she skates one of her best skates - I LOVE her red violin program). I'm not sure if Sasha would be on par with Yuna and Mao exactly, but it would definitely be an added dimension to their rivalry. I think under the 6.0 system, things would have been closer for sure. Kim wouldn't skate away with such huge leads and results would be closer.

As far as the Irina and Yuna comparison goes (about their jumps), it's my opinion that Yuna's jumps are better in that they have more speed going in and out of the jumps (one of my pet peeves with Irina's jumps were her landings - she often lacked speed and did not land on a definitive outside edge), they are more consistent, they have terrific distance across the ice. I can't deny that Irina, however, had a consistent loop jump. If we compare triple triples directly, I think it's clear that Yuna's were better. From being at competitions, I think that Yuna's jumps are also much more impressive than Irina's when you see them live. Yuna's have more of the "wow" factor in that respect.

I totally agree with you're last point about favorites and skater longevity though.

So true on Irina's run out... the one flaw. That and the constant hair pulling of the Tosca years

But I'm not sure about the whole Kwan under CoP thing - Red Violin is a prime example of the original idea behind IN HER PRIME. That program is dope regardless of the system. Plus, its foolish to think that a 20 year old Kwan wouldn't have the ability to work whatever system thrown at her. I think the same is true of Yuna's Gershwin program. Under 6.0, I think Yuna has a larger disadvantage to Kwan under CoP.

I still say that Irina is the best jumper, second only to Midori. On that point we will have to agree to disagree. That doesn't take away from Yuna's talent though and I'm never sure how these threads twist that idea into something ugly and negative. Oh well - maybe y'all are like me and need a snack or a nap instead of this pile of post holiday work!

 

[jaylee]

Is Irina a legend in Russia, though? Is she still used to describe skating as Michelle Kwan is in the media?

I've heard other Russian skating fans describe her as that, though of course I don't know firsthand. She's the only Russian ladies skater to have accomplished so much--two Olympic medals, two world titles, the Euros and GPF titles, etc. No one else comes close. If she's not considered a skating legend in Russia, I'd be shocked.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify, but this truthfully doesn't clarify much for me, someone who remembers Sasha pretty well. Yu-Na has suffered from severe injuries in her career, and in spite of that, her results are far superior to Sasha and very impressive overall. As a competitor, Yu-Na's nerves held up better than most at the biggest competition of her life skating right after her biggest rival did the SP of her life, and then again in the LP skating before the same rival. Throughout her whole career, actually, barring injury, Yu-Na delivered consistently and there isn't a single type of competition that she entered without winning at least once, from the JGPF and Junior Worlds to the senior GPF, senior Worlds, 4CCs, and the Olympics. When the door was open she walked through it, or if it was closed she found a way to pry it open, as many had predicted that someone else would win the 2006 Junior Worlds, the 2006 GPF, etc. That takes competitive nerve, guts, whatever you call it, to deliver when you have the chance.

On the other hand, how many times did Sasha walk through that door? Her deer-in-the-headlights look before taking on the ice for her 2006 Olympics LP was a giveaway of the performance that was going to come, and rather characteristic of the kind of competitor she was her entire life--an unreliable one.

The two aren't comparable in any way, not in their strengths as skaters, not in their results, not in their competitive approach. And Yu-Na has completed far more clean LPs than Sasha ever did.



Heh. I like Yu-Na, and I am not subscribed to her page on Facebook.

If you remember Sasha pretty well then you'd know she also suffered severe injuries. So did Michelle. So Irina. So did just about every elite skater - it goes with the territory. But you know what? I apologize if you can't understand my opinion a hypothetical senario. Its cool. All the prying doors and whatnot has snapped me back to reality... Welcome to Golden Skate.

 

[Mathman]

...or have an everlasting ice-sculpture of her as well ...

They tried at the Vancouver Olympics, but this is the best they could do.

http://jumpingclappingman.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/2010-olympics.jpg?w=209&h=300

I'm waiting for the butter sculpture.

Well, here's Michelle in wax.

http://sgstb.msn.com/i/EC/2BFBFF368F11472692ADAC21AADE.jpg

 

[aftertherain]

On the other hand, how many times did Sasha walk through that door? Her deer-in-the-headlights look before taking on the ice for her 2006 Olympics LP was a giveaway of the performance that was going to come, and rather characteristic of the kind of competitor she was her entire life--an unreliable one.

I think Sasha was more reliable than many give her credit for. It can be said she was unreliable to cinch the gold or to skate two clean programs in a row, but she was at least top six for seven years. She was never off the podium for three consecutive years. She was a headcase, but not in the way Alissa Czisny is/was.

And her deer-in-the headlights look was because she either hadn't healed from an injury or reinjured herself. She reportedly had a bad Olympic LP practice like Irina did. I can't remember where I saw it, but I'll try to find the link later.

Heh. I like Yu-Na, and I am not subscribed to her page on Facebook.

Well, they have some nice pictures of her. And like ... a million news articles about how she's the flawless/goddess-like/the best in the world and how her Olympics performance is acknowledged in all parts of the world (I see they're mostly American articles though).

I'm waiting for the butter sculpture.

Not if Paula Deen uses up all the butter first.

 

[aftertherain]

They tried at the Vancouver Olympics, but this is the best they could do.

http://jumpingclappingman.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/2010-olympics.jpg?w=209&h=300

AHAHAHAHA. I'm dying of laughter.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

^^ Sasha's look was from that monster crash she had on the last loop jump before she skated. I've never ever been a Sasha fan but thanks to YouTube and whatnot I've had the chance to go back and watch her performances and she simply wasn't a clean skater. But she had spectacular elements. Its unfortunate that she won't be remembered for the good, only the bad. And let's leave Paula Deen out of this before someone decides that Yuna is the better cook... (granted, according to TAT, Sasha just might be...)

 

[miki88]

^^ Sasha's look was from that monster crash she had on the last loop jump before she skated. I've never ever been a Sasha fan but thanks to YouTube and whatnot I've had the chance to go back and watch her performances and she simply wasn't a clean skater. But she had spectacular elements. Its unfortunate that she won't be remembered for the good, only the bad. And let's leave Paula Deen out of this before someone decides that Yuna is the better cook... (granted, according to TAT, Sasha just might be...)

I think it's only online skating fans that have been particularly negative about Sasha. She seems to be better appreciated by the general audiences. I was never a big fan of hers but I always found her to be a beautiful skater. Also, it appears she remains as an inspiration for many young skaters. I've heard/read several young skaters listing her as one of their favorites. So I think her legacy is an overall positive one.