Is Bullying an Equal Opportunity Problem?

[ImaginaryPogue]

If you want to get into a political debate about the way the media reports bullying and how it gets handled on all levels, I'm game. It's a lot more complicated than a simple reductive statement, though, and I'm not sure this is the forum for it.

 

[Mathman]

What about those that were bullied for buck teeth or braces or glasses, or because their dad's in jail?

People do not tell children with buck teeth that they will go to hell because their teeth are not straight. Ministers do not lead their congregations to the funerals of people with braces preaching that their death is God's punishment upon them for wearing braces. People do not quote Deuteronomy at children who are so evil as to wear glasses.

 

[Bluebonnet]

What makes Kurt's and Patrick's comments inappropriate is that they added color and value. "You sort of lose respect among the men"---a negative value is attached to men who do a Beilmann. "Leave that to Johnny Weir"--a value is assigned: If you do a Beilmann, you belong to the class of Johnny Weir.

Pointing out gender differences is one thing, reinforcing gender stereotypes is another. It is a fine line that they have crossed. It was offensive and politically incorrect.

There was nothing they have crossed, skatinginbc. The level you've reacted to it was astonishing, exactly fit "making mountains out of molehills". We have to be clear that masculinity talk is not gay and straight talk. They are different. Please don't make case into gay issue whenever it is possible even when it is irrelavent.

Patrick Chan's answer and reaction was totally natural. It was exactly what a typical male's reaction. And what he said "losing respect" was exactly what could happen in a typical situation in most cases. About Kurt's comment, I've already said in my previous posts.

What normal reaction on Patrick's part now in your eyes is intolerable.

On another note, I believe, super sensitive (on anything) would, could only make things worse.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I didn't know about the board's rules on skaters' sexuality but it's a respect of privacy I automatically assumed.

I too feel skatinginbc is oversentive and over-reactive on this issue. Patrick, a 19 year old male, not wanting to do a girly move was nothing homophobic or smacking of bullying. In fact it's more about avoiding bullying/teasing. However, I believe skatinginbc likely has some very relevant personal experiences with the subject of homophobia and its horrible consequences, probably suffered by someone very close or by a number of people. I would also extend the respect of privacy to her(presumably) and the understanding of how difficult and probably painful it must be while engaging in these arguements.

I disagree with you, with respect, skatinginbc, not about the seriousness of homophobia and bullying, but on the verdict on Kurt and Patrick.

 

[blue dog]

Skatefiguring, I do agree with your assessment that him not wanting to do a biellmann doesn't sound homophobic or any type of phobic. Patrick seems to forget that being a great skater means he has a responsibility to carry himself better--and learn how to speak better. Of course he won't be doing the biellmann anytime soon, when his foot is in his mouth most of the time! J/K

The biellmann is a very difficult move. In fact, it takes a person who is not only very flexible, but is also very very strong. Your lower back must have a lot of strength to move that way. Perhaps a better way for Patrick to have responded was to say, "I won't do a biellmann because I am not strong enough to do it."

Back to the original topic--I think everyone, unfortunately, experiences bullying in one form or another. Recently, in the news, have been gay teens and young girls committing suicide because of the bullying they were suffering at the hands of their peers (and, in one case, the mother of a girl assisted her daughter in cyberbullying another teen girl, which led to that girl's suicide). I think where society fails to address bullying is how schools handle it. I think our schools (and I hope I'm not insulting any teachers on the board at the moment) have not been updated--the way they deal with problems would've worked in the 1950's, but for today's children. Bullying needs to stop, but parents AND teachers need to step it up. No one is born a bully.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think Patrick expressed enough respect for the Biellman with his "I wish", which was the natural and sincere first response. The added comment was a second thought on the social aspect, a learned and reactionary response.

I don't believe various "differentnesses" face the same bullying or even persecutions in the same society. An attribute, such be being gay, belonging to a religion, being of the female gender, having certain physical characteristics, etc., may be quite accepted or at least "tolerated" in some societies or regions than others, even within a nation. E.g. Being gay incurs very different experiences in L. A. than in a Southern town. And some discriminations are institutionalized or even legal so that the discriminated don't have any recourse at all. Homosexual persons have a lot more rights and are generally better accepted in Canada than in the U.S. Still, individual experiences vary. Often legelity or general attitude offers no protection against hatred and intentions of a few individuals or a particular community. So it is also a circumstantial and environmental problem that can be altered by relocation, which is often not a desired or even viable option.

There are always at least two parties to bullying, the victim and the bullies who in turn are often "victims" of peer pressure or societal influences. Often their families are the major influence so it's hard to ask or count on these parents to "step it up", essentially expecting them to stamp out a behavior while being its cause. OTOH, youths are very strongly influenced by pop culture which in turn creates peer pressure, both greatly empowered by the popular social media outside the parental control.

There can be different means to prevent bullying. Society may be educated about the targeted groups, making people realize such groups are really no different but are people like the rest of the society. Another means of preventing bullying is simply to prevent the acts of bullying, whatever excuses it is based on. Psychological reasons for bullying, the real reasons, are largely the same, even if the targets, the scape goats, are different. The bullies often are insecure, feel threatened or feel a need to dominate and to protect a status quo. They probably need to feel superior to at least some people who have no choice of being who they are so they can't take away the bullies' sense of superiority and power. That is why there are laws against hate crimes. Many evoking "causes" for bullying can be changed by the targets but some, such as a person's race, religion, or sexual orientation, cannot. Large groups of people have to deal with ingrained negative perception by large segments of the society whose attitude needs to change. Meanwhile, hate crime laws are there as strong determent and to offer some rights and security for the targeted groups. Individuals suffering from bullying for whatever "reasons" often suffer similar effects and consequences. While it is impossible to list and prevent all possible causes of being bullied, there are at least laws to protect targeted groups in a population whose identities and essence of who they are cannot be changed.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Perhaps a better way for Patrick to have responded was to say, "I won't do a biellmann because I am not strong enough to do it."

But that's 100% not true. He won't do it was not because he couldn't do it. Though, I believe physically he coudn't do it. To me, he's not that flexible like Hanyu. With the state of Patrick's mind, he won't do it even if he could do it. And there is nothing wrong if he just doesn't want to do it. The ice is thiner for masculine male skaters these days. I appreciate these "rare" skaters more and more.

I think Patrick expressed enough respect for the Biellman with his "I wish", which was the natural and sincere first response. The added comment was a second thought on the social aspect, a learned and reactionary response.

Agree. He was PR enough to say, "I wish."

 

[prettykeys]

People do not tell children with buck teeth that they will go to hell because their teeth are not straight. Ministers do not lead their congregations to the funerals of people with braces preaching that their death is God's punishment upon them for wearing braces. People do not quote Deuteronomy at children who are so evil as to wear glasses.

I agree with you. Different groups do not have the same likelihood of being bullied, and the severity of it will vary...but there is also the individual side of things. Some bucktoothed, braced and glasses-wearing kids will be bullied more in their lives than some gay kids.

I'm not really offended by Patrick and Kurt's comments about the Biellmann/"leaving it up to Johnny Weir" and "losing some respect." I just find it a bit odd, considering some guys' perceptions of male figure skating and male figure skaters is kinda warped and closed-minded along the same vein.

Me, figure skate? LOL No thanks...I'd lose some respect from the rest of my buddies. Figure skating is for girls and fairy boys.

 

[Buttercup]

That's relentlessly cynical, and also strikes me as wrong. I can't think of a single circumstance where a kid was bullied because he was straight.

maybe not, but he was different. why is it, though, that only those bullied that are gay make the news? Are the others less newsworthy, or is just more sensational because hollywood actors will comment on it. What about those that were bullied for buck teeth or braces or glasses, or because their dad's in jail? Why are they less important? Or are they truly less important because they are "just straight"? It goes both ways, just as it does with racism. EVERYONE gets bullied. Some just get more attention and help from others. Straight, gay, male, female, black, white...

I think that maybe the most famous bullying case in recent years was that of Phoebe Prince, who sadly ended up committing suicide. Phoebe was bullied for supposedly being promiscuous and stealing other girl's boyfriends, not for being gay.

It's true that bullying related to perceived homosexuality has received a lot of attention, and I think Dan Savage, who started the "It's get better" project deserves a great deal of credit for it. This is a serious issue that needed to be brought into the public discourse., and if LGBTQ kids are now more aware of the resources available to help them because of it, that is absolutely great.

Keep in mind also that Patrick is a teenager. I don't know about all of you, but it took me years to learn how to think before I speak, and I'm still not flawless all the time, alas.

Patrick Chan is twenty, not a teenager anymore. The "he's a teenager" line has been used to excuse some of his more outrageous comments for a while now. I don't think it's doing him any favors. Patrick is by most accounts a bright guy and he's in a position where he's in the public eye at times; he needs to learn how to filter his thoughts, because not every opinion is appropriate for him to share with an audience. It might be okay for a 16 year old to make a dumb statement, but when it becomes a pattern and continues at an older age, it stops being cute. Kurt Browning has said some stuff over the years and he certainly doesn't have the excuse of being young.

I know Chan fans feel defensive because he gets a lot of criticism, not all of it fair. That doesn't mean all criticism is unfair, though. I would suggest, before leaping to his defense instinctively, that fans ask themselves how they'd feel if the same comments had been made by Plushenko, or Lysacek, or Joubert. Would you still think that there's nothing to get excited about?

If a guy can do a good Biellmann, or anything else that is more frequently seen in ladies' skating, I think that should be encouraged - certainly it's fun to see Yuzuru Hanyu do a Bielmann or an Ina Bauer.

 

[skatinginbc]

I too feel skatinginbc is oversentive and over-reactive on this issue. Patrick, a 19 year old male, not wanting to do a girly move was nothing homophobic or smacking of bullying. In fact it's more about avoiding bullying/teasing. However, I believe skatinginbc likely has some very relevant personal experiences with the subject of homophobia and its horrible consequences, probably suffered by someone very close or by a number of people. I would also extend the respect of privacy to her(presumably) and the understanding of how difficult and probably painful it must be while engaging in these arguements.

Hey, my friend, have you thought about the possibility that you might have been over-sensitive a little? Did I say that Patrick is homophobic? It is written black-and-white on my computer screen, stating, "I don't think Patrick is homophobic". Did I say what Patrick did was an act of bullying? No. I mentioned "bully" in the context of explaining why some (not all) gays are over-sensitive to others' remarks. Do you think there might be a certain degree of "biased interpretation" on your part? Somebody mentioned "making mountains out of molehills"--Oh, yeh, I see lots of helping hands. And how big those mountains are is in the eyes of beholders.

How nice of you to be emphatic and understanding. I really appreciate it (and I am NOT being sarcastic). However, I would like to give you an equally plausible hypothesis about where I come from: Maybe I have a degree in Applied Behavioral Studies with a specialization in Educational Psychology and have counseled many gay youth. There are clues to support this hypothesis: I talked about statistics and hypothesis testing in another thread--an indication that I might have come from some sort of Social Science. If you are familiar with Psychology, the phrase "social learning" in one of my prior posts might have rung a bell for you. Anyway, there are two equally plausible explanations, and you chose the weaker position for me (someone that needs sympathy) rather than the stronger one (someone with authority). Would you have chosen the other if you happened to agree with what I said? I know I have created "cognitive dissonance" for you as I seemed (in your mind) rational in one thread and emotional in another. I understand your drive to make sense of it and so attribute the difference to my "personal experiences", but--you know what--I have not changed. I was no more emotional or less rational on this subject than the other. The difference is in your mind.

Though we disagree sometimes, it does not diminish my high regards for you. Indeed, I am disappointed by Patrick's comment. I never said he is a bad person; on the contrary, I think he is nice--And that worries me more with his "close-minded" (for lack of a better word) comments as many young people would look upon him as a role model.

Anyway, that's enough. I am moving on.